ASBA Breeding Panel Report- well worth the read

[triplev123]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16473

Nice work Mightymo.

[mango]

It will be expensive if you are to buy a colt from n.z and bring him out here to race.

[triplev123]

Good.

[mango]

If you bring a colt out to race the fee will be $5k what is the current fee, also there will be an Imported semen foal registration fee of $500 for colts and $250 for fillies does the breeder get slugged this fee ????

[triplev123]

Not sure. Mightymo might care to step in here and elaborate?

[triplev123]

QUOTE [ The Panel also revamped the Sires Fertility List to include Positive Tests, to more accurately reflect the performance of the Stallion. Previously, a mare dying, a mare slipping or a foal dying counted against a Stallions fertility performance.
These changes now determine the Stallions' performance based on positive tests as a percentage of total services.
Based on the 2009/2010 statistics, the Stallion Fertility percentage rose from 62.15% to 73.94% as there were 992 more positive tests than the live foals figure reflects ] END QUOTE.

:D

[smithy]

that fee of 5k wouldnt last 5 seconds... absolute breach of world trade agreements, you cannot restrict NZ's who own colts trying to sell them into aussie without grounds for health, quaratine or native resource depletion

[Greg Hando]

If you bring a colt out to race the fee will be $5k what is the current fee, also there will be an Imported semen foal registration fee of $500 for colts and $250 for fillies does the breeder get slugged this fee ????
You pay an import fee now $500 for a colt or geld and $150 for a filly or mare in NSW

[Greg Hando]

I think the higher import fee's are a good idea it can only help promote our own breeding industry that is sadly lacking in incentives to breed that 1 extra wether to race yourself or sell
in the education,training strategy to get live foals to track i believe a lot of horses just aren't given enough time because the owner's want that early 2yo money if they don't come up quick a lot of them are invariably dogged for the simple reason they weren't mature enough at that stage of their life and because of the cost's are got rid of because of lack of patience and being able to give them time as another 12 month's is more dead money in agistment cost's etc

[triplev123]

that fee of 5k wouldnt last 5 seconds... absolute breach of world trade agreements, you cannot restrict NZ's who own colts trying to sell them into aussie without grounds for health, quaratine or native resource depletion

C'mon Smithy, surely you can do better than that.
Breach of WTA's my hairy backside. The Australian Harness Racing Industry can do whatever it so pleases as far as its import fee structure is concerned.
It is free to do so in the very same fashion as the NZ Industry has for whatever reason long seen fit to ban the importation and use of Australian made Race Bikes.

[mango]

I think the higher import fee's are a good idea it can only help promote our own breeding industry that is sadly lacking in incentives to breed that 1 extra wether to race yourself or sell
in the education,training strategy to get live foals to track i believe a lot of horses just aren't given enough time because the owner's want that early 2yo money if they don't come up quick a lot of them are invariably dogged for the simple reason they weren't mature enough at that stage of their life and because of the cost's are got rid of because of lack of patience and being able to give them time as another 12 month's is more dead money in agistment cost's etc

Hi Greg

I agree with raising the import fee but to $5k for a colt is absurd, maybe they should of lifted it from $500 to $2k at most but thats just my opinion and fillies and mare's should be kepted at there same fee as the majority of them become future broodmare's in our country. I don't think this will change people's idea's on keeping horses and breeding 1 more mare per year as we can see now the decline of breeding has already started and people prefer to buy a yearling or a going horse which takes a lot of risks out from rearing a foal and so on. You can buy decent yearling's these day's for not much more than the service fee sometime's. Some people don't want horses sitting in a paddock for 12 months whilst still outlaying money on agistment, worming, hoof trimming and getting there teeth done they mostly listen to there trainers and if he say's the horse ain't know good or might win 1 at most whats the use of spelling paying agistment and then 12wks pay to the trainer to get that horse to the track to win 1 race you will be running at a loss.

[mango]

QUOTE [ The Panel also revamped the Sires Fertility List to include Positive Tests, to more accurately reflect the performance of the Stallion. Previously, a mare dying, a mare slipping or a foal dying counted against a Stallions fertility performance.
These changes now determine the Stallions' performance based on positive tests as a percentage of total services.
Based on the 2009/2010 statistics, the Stallion Fertility percentage rose from 62.15% to 73.94% as there were 992 more positive tests than the live foals figure reflects ] END QUOTE.

:D

Hi Triple

I think this is a great idea and if i remember rightly you brought this exact subject up a couple of months ago in a previous post. Maybe they should call it the Triple stats lol.

[triplev123]

Hi Triple

I think this is a great idea and if i remember rightly you brought this exact subject up a couple of months ago in a previous post. Maybe they should call it the Triple stats lol.

:D:D:D:D:D Proud to say that was the centrepiece of my submission and I'm absolutely bloody thrilled that it was adopted. On & off I have been banging away at the relevance to Breeders of the previous format for some 15 years or so....and it actually goes way back to the battles fought in the early to mid 1990's here in NSW when I was on the NSWSBA along with Garry Reid. We got the then NSW Sires Stakes prizemoney evened up for the Fillies & the Colts but I could never get this across the line.
It's very, very satisfying to see this finally grow wings & fly Mango and to say that I am a a VERY happy camper this morning would be an understatement. :cool:

[triplev123]

Hi Greg

I agree with raising the import fee but to $5k for a colt is absurd, maybe they should of lifted it from $500 to $2k at most but thats just my opinion and fillies and mare's should be kepted at there same fee as the majority of them become future broodmare's in our country. I don't think this will change people's idea's on keeping horses and breeding 1 more mare per year as we can see now the decline of breeding has already started and people prefer to buy a yearling or a going horse which takes a lot of risks out from rearing a foal and so on. You can buy decent yearling's these day's for not much more than the service fee sometime's. Some people don't want horses sitting in a paddock for 12 months whilst still outlaying money on agistment, worming, hoof trimming and getting there teeth done they mostly listen to there trainers and if he say's the horse ain't know good or might win 1 at most whats the use of spelling paying agistment and then 12wks pay to the trainer to get that horse to the track to win 1 race you will be running at a loss.

G'day Mango,

Why is it absurd?
Along with a number of others you seem to have completely overlooked the fact that the brief given to the Panel was a focus on the AUSTRALIAN Breeding Industry, not on that of NZ, the US or CAN.
How else exactly do you expect the rest of the proposals contained in that report to be funded?
The 5k Import Fee for colts, geldings & entires is not going to be an additional charge for starters. Instead, along with the shipping charges it will come straight off the top of the prices paid for NZ bred stock. What do you care if the Kiwi sellers end up getting 5k less for the exported male going horses? That charge is factored into the overall landed price. I find it absolutely astonishing that any Oz Breeders would give a bugger.

[mango]

Hey Triple

A lot of horses are purchased privately and then you have to organise transport and so on yourself so how does the $5k come of the purchase price. Personally i don't give a bugger as i don't race colts/gelding's but i have a few mate's who do so i'm looking at this from both side's.

[triplev123]

Hey Triple

A lot of horses are purchased privately and then you have to organise transport and so on yourself so how does the $5k come of the purchase price. Personally i don't give a bugger as i don't race colts/gelding's but i have a few mate's who do so i'm looking at this from both side's.

Simple. The cost of the transport and importation comes off the top of the purchase price because you factor it into how much you're willing to pay for the horse to start with, the price you're willing to fork over exclusive of additional charges. For example if you're aiming up on a 50k landed buy out of NZ then the price the seller actually gets for the horse is $AUS50k less transport and import costs.
Under this 5k proposal & using the $AUS50k landed as a figure...at a guess the seller gets something in the vicinity of $AUS42k if you're going to do the crossing by boat...which it is worth noting is still around $NZ52,750.

[mango]

Hey Triple

That will be correct if you do the deal with an agent where they quote the price as $50k landed, Say you purchase a horse in n.z for $50k without the agent you then have to organise and pay transport costs and a few other charges and then you will have to pay the $5k import fee. Not all sale's are done on the deal where it includes being landed which means the buyer here in Aus pay's the $5k.

[triplev123]

You're missing the point mate. It's not that complicated.
You don't pay the fee, you deduct it as a cost from your offer. In effect the seller pays the fee because they get less for their horse. If, again for an example, you have a budget of $AUS50k landed (and I assume most everyone has a budget of some description or if not then a general idea of what they wish to spend) then it is no different.
Landed does not automatically = the involvement of an agent. Landed is Landed, it is the all costs included price of a horse when it walks off the truck & into your barn. Agents & private sellers alike can quote all the prices they like. What you'll see fit to offer them is up to you.

[mango]

I'm not missing the point at all, if the seller want's $50k for the horse and know less how do you deduct it ($5k)from the offer . At present if i was to buy a horse for $50k direct of the seller as that was a price he wanted and i agreed to then yes i'm aware that tranport and them thing's are my costs and at present i'm aware that the $500 import fee is what i have to pay when it arrive's. But under this new system it won't be $500 i'll pay but $5k. Do you honestly think people are going to take less for there horses if they have $50k firm on them, your saying either offer them $45k or tell them they will have to pay the import fee i wreckon they'll jump at that deal. How many seller's are going to take less for a horse due to people on this end having to pay an extra $4.5k on import fee's.

[triplev123]

Originally Posted by mango

I'm not missing the point at all, if the seller want's $50k for the horse and know less how do you deduct it ($5k)from the offer .
At present if i was to buy a horse for $50k direct of the seller as that was a price he wanted and i agreed to then yes i'm aware that tranport and them thing's are my costs and at present i'm aware that the $500 import fee is what i have to pay when it arrive's.

[VVV] You are indeed missing the point. At the risk of causing poor old Breno unpleasant flashbacks & assorted nightmares, it is known as a 'Free Market'. Sellers can have an asking price of whatever they like, buyers can make offers below that if they so wish. The seller is asking 50k and no less. Good for him. That doesn't stop you offering 45k or 40k or whatever price you please. Maybe you're feeling generous one day & by way of furthering trans Tasman relations you decide the horse is too cheap and you slip them 55k. That's entirely up to you also.

But under this new system it won't be $500 i'll pay but $5k.
[VVV] You won't. Indirectly the seller will pay it because they've received 5k less for their horse as you will have deducted all of your costs to land the horse in Oz from your offer.

Do you honestly think people are going to take less for there horses if they have $50k firm on them, your saying either offer them $45k or tell them they will have to pay the import fee i wreckon they'll jump at that deal.
[VVV] Yes, I most certainly do. It will simply be another cost that's factored into the final agreed price along with the transport, insurance, GST etc etc etc. Ultimately... the fact is that the Kiwis HAVE TO SELL. It is by no means a secret that they produce well in excess of the number of horses they require to fill their race fields and they have done for as long as I can remember.


How many seller's are going to take less for a horse due to people on this end having to pay an extra $4.5k on import fee's.
[VVV] Ultimately, in one form or another...every single one of them.

Mango, this report & the various proposals contained therein are squarely in keeping with the brief given to the Panel.
In its entirety it is about furthering the interests of the Australian Breeding Industry...not those of NZ or for that matter the US or CAN. There are indeed aspects of the overall document that I don't happen to agree with and that will almost always be the case with any such report...however this is most certainly not one of them. A reading of the entire report and a placing of this aspect of it in context rather than railing against it in isolation would not go astray.

[Greg Hando]

Hi Greg

I agree with raising the import fee but to $5k for a colt is absurd, maybe they should of lifted it from $500 to $2k at most but thats just my opinion and fillies and mare's should be kepted at there same fee as the majority of them become future broodmare's in our country. I don't think this will change people's idea's on keeping horses and breeding 1 more mare per year as we can see now the decline of breeding has already started and people prefer to buy a yearling or a going horse which takes a lot of risks out from rearing a foal and so on. You can buy decent yearling's these day's for not much more than the service fee sometime's. Some people don't want horses sitting in a paddock for 12 months whilst still outlaying money on agistment, worming, hoof trimming and getting there teeth done they mostly listen to there trainers and if he say's the horse ain't know good or might win 1 at most whats the use of spelling paying agistment and then 12wks pay to the trainer to get that horse to the track to win 1 race you will be running at a loss.

Grandad kept a horse once till he was a 3 yo before he was sold as he needed time the horse went on to win an Inter had he been sold as a yearling he would have lost his head long before his 3rd birthday
and i think a lot of the time extra time will pay off for a lot of horses i agree with you if the trainer thinks the horse will only win 1 race though you get rid of it with the import fee being 5k for colt's it is good it may help the breeder get that bit extra for a yearling instead of only not much more than the service fee

[triplev123]

I was only young when I met your grandfather at the Sales once many years ago Greg. Good bloke, very friendly. Old School. A Gentleman.

[Greg Hando]

With the putting back of the sales for 8 - 10 weeks my only problem with it is west of the mountains it's start's to get a bit cold of a night come March and would IMO make it a lot harder to present with good coat condition
especially for the Bathurst sale if they all were to go back 8 - 10 weeks
Yep and set in his ways and wont budge if he think's he's right his favourite saying is "I'll prove a point " although sometimes the point is never proved but wont admit he was wrong something else changed the point ha ha

[smithy]

G'day Mango,

Why is it absurd?
Along with a number of others you seem to have completely overlooked the fact that the brief given to the Panel was a focus on the AUSTRALIAN Breeding Industry, not on that of NZ, the US or CAN.
How else exactly do you expect the rest of the proposals contained in that report to be funded?
The 5k Import Fee for colts, geldings & entires is not going to be an additional charge for starters. Instead, along with the shipping charges it will come straight off the top of the prices paid for NZ bred stock. What do you care if the Kiwi sellers end up getting 5k less for the exported male going horses? That charge is factored into the overall landed price. I find it absolutely astonishing that any Oz Breeders would give a bugger.

the WTO was just a cheap shot to begin with.

i'm sure the kiwi's will just knock 5k off the price...
c'mon triple v you can see this is just going to make it more expensive for new owners coming into the sport that want a horse to race, its well known that people don't want fillies to race because there is limited opportunities for them (so obviously much much more needs to be done on this first), also BUT why isn't the 5k fee on ALL imported horses? i thought the idea is to boost the local industry's fillies that are bred?

i understand this is to support breeders but they have to realise they can't hurt someone else who isn't as interested in breeding their horses (5k could well be up to 25% tariff on top of a horse out of nz) - i can't see why HRA owners association would support this and if they do then theres a serous problem in that organisation

[Greg Hando]

the WTO was just a cheap shot to begin with.

i'm sure the kiwi's will just knock 5k off the price...
c'mon triple v you can see this is just going to make it more expensive for new owners coming into the sport that want a horse to race, its well known that people don't want fillies to race because there is limited opportunities for them (so obviously much much more needs to be done on this first), also BUT why isn't the 5k fee on ALL imported horses? i thought the idea is to boost the local industry's fillies that are bred?

i understand this is to support breeders but they have to realise they can't hurt someone else who isn't as interested in breeding their horses (5k could well be up to 25% tariff on top of a horse out of nz) - i can't see why HRA owners association would support this and if they do then theres a serous problem in that organisation
I think it is a way of trying to get new owner's to buy Aus bred horses to help out the breeding industry i don't see how it will make it more expensive for new owner's buy local and support our industry is what it is saying IMO i may be wrong on my interpretation

[mango]

Hi Greg

As a breeder myself i'd like to see them buy Aus yearling's/horses but sometime's the better and cheaper option is across the sea. I suppose there are alway's 2 way's at looking at thing's but at the end of the day the power's to be will make the decision on what they think is best for the Industry. I hope Triple is correct in saying the kiwi's will have to drop there price's and with the state of there prizemoney over there and surplus of horses they might have to.

[smithy]

greg please find me a horse with enough ability to race through to metro grade that is currently assessed a c1/2/3 for sale or better yet find me a 2 or 3 old good enough for derby or oaks heats....
you would be lucky to find a single horse for sale in aussie but 50 in NZ, we just aren't sellers of good horses, horses for less then 10k sure, but nothing decent

[Love Of Courage]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=16473

Nice work Mightymo.

I agree with VVV nice work Mightymo.

[triplev123]

The small matter of the 26% that you currently have up your sleave by way of the $Oz to $NZ Fx wouldn't come into it would it Smithy? Nah, of course not. Perish the thought. :p
Btw, I know of a couple of Oz bred, based & raced horses, one a current 2yo, one a current 3yo, that will race through their grades and at 4yrs+ will be good enough to win at Metro level. Not only that but the fellas that own them are sellers, always have been, always will be. I think the 2yo's a fair chance to develop enough between now and then to make a Derby Heat or two next year and while the 3yo has basically already missed his shots through circumstances beyond anyone's control, like his younger counterpart I've no doubt he'll go through to an M3-M4.

[mightymo]

Irrespective of whether you like or dislike the report or parts thereof, can i please ask that you provide feedback in writing as suggested.

That way we can ensure that whatever changes are made, adequately reflect the industry as a whole

[smithy]

The small matter of the 26% that you currently have up your sleave by way of the $Oz to $NZ Fx wouldn't come into it would it Smithy? Nah, of course not. Perish the thought. :p
Btw, I know of a couple of Oz bred, based & raced horses, one a current 2yo, one a current 3yo, that will race through their grades and at 4yrs+ will be good enough to win at Metro level. Not only that but the fellas that own them are sellers, always have been, always will be. I think the 2yo's a fair chance to develop enough between now and then to make a Derby Heat or two next year and while the 3yo has basically already missed his shots through circumstances beyond anyone's control, like his younger counterpart I've no doubt he'll go through to an M3-M4.

mate you know aussies aren't sellers and kiwi's are - that is the way it is.

inflating the price of horses is going against the very first point mentioned in the report- costs becoming too high for owners to break even (page 2 of the report)

[triplev123]

To some extent that's true Smithy, that is basically the way it is...but make no mistake, there's nothing overtly more noble / more commercially minded about it as far as the Kiwis are concerned. Instead it is down to the fact that most Aussies aren't sellers because, unlike the Kiwis, they simply don't have to be. To start off with the Kiwis produce well in excess of the number of horses they'll require to fill their race fields every year & due to the addition of a number of things, not the least of which are a their harsh(er) handicapping system & a general lack of racing opportunities they simply have to sell, they have no other choice but to sell. Further to this (somewhat enforced by the circumstances) selling approach is the fact that for NZ, the US/CAN market has all but dried up so at present and for the foreseeable future Australia is pretty much their SOLE market.
That's not going to inflate the prices for going stock...it's all about supply and demand (sorry Breno).
If you're concerned about prices for going horses being inflated then might I suggest you consider those fellas over in WA who have been shelling out phone numbers in order to pick off the top end of the NZ going concerns...and in doing so duly raising the expectations of price for a swag lesser lights? They're belting the prices along way, way more than any increased charges/fees could ever do.

[mango]

One trainer in W.A over the last couple of years has shelled out $4.2 mil on behalf of clients only to win back $1.7 mil, they made an offer of $150k on a 3yr old at Cambridge when i was there in early april.

[smithy]

peacock? oh wait you said WA.. woops

[triplev123]

Hey Smithy....steady on with the comments about...
http://www.free-mobile-wallpapers.com/wallpapers/iphone-wallpaper-peacock.jpg
'The Colourful Bird'. :D:D:D:D
He's a relation of mine, though somewhat removed admittedly.

[justdoit]

Thank you for the link to the report, what part/parts of the report will actually be acted upon?

[mango]

Thank you for the link to the report, what part/parts of the report will actually be acted upon?

Hi Justdoit

They would like feed back in writing regarding the report whether people like it or not so they can act upon what the industry want's.

[aussiebreno]

To some extent that's true Smithy, that is basically the way it is...but make no mistake, there's nothing overtly more noble / more commercially minded about it as far as the Kiwis are concerned. Instead it is down to the fact that most Aussies aren't sellers because, unlike the Kiwis, they simply don't have to be. To start off with the Kiwis produce well in excess of the number of horses they'll require to fill their race fields every year & due to the addition of a number of things, not the least of which are a their harsh(er) handicapping system & a general lack of racing opportunities they simply have to sell, they have no other choice but to sell. Further to this (somewhat enforced by the circumstances) selling approach is the fact that for NZ, the US/CAN market has all but dried up so at present and for the foreseeable future Australia is pretty much their SOLE market.
That's not going to inflate the prices for going stock...it's all about supply and demand (sorry Breno).
If you're concerned about prices for going horses being inflated then might I suggest you consider those fellas over in WA who have been shelling out phone numbers in order to pick off the top end of the NZ going concerns...and in doing so duly raising the expectations of price for a swag lesser lights? They're belting the prices along way, way more than any increased charges/fees could ever do.
Lol

http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jongriffith.com/wp-content/uploads/basic_supply_demand.png&imgrefurl=http://www.jongriffith.com/index.php/supply-and-demand-x-marks-the-spot/&h=300&w=300&sz=4&tbnid=e70QbpmpOc7KtM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=97&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsupply%2Bdemand%2Bgraph%26tbm%3Disch% 26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=supply+demand+graph&docid=_Bhx6fAVdrEKVM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aZcuTommD8znmAWrpsge&ved=0CCgQ9QEwAQ

Thats the easy bit; if you start talking deadweight loss I'm not going to be happy though....or a tax with the $5000 import fee and how that affects the supply and demand I'm going to be cranky !!!

[Greg Hando]

Smithy just shop around you might be surprised at what horses are available if asked about wether for sale or not everything just about has a price

[justdoit]

Thank you for the link to the report, what part/parts of the report will actually be acted upon?

What part/parts of the report do the people here think will be acted upon?

[mango]

I think the ASBA would like to see the majority of the report proceed and for the mare credits and so forth to go ahead they need money from somewhere so thats where the import fee play's a big part cause without that increase to the import fee the projected figure to cover the mare's credits will fall way short.

[The Big Mile]

I think the ASBA would like to see the majority of the report proceed and for the mare credits and so forth to go ahead they need money from somewhere so thats where the import fee play's a big part cause without that increase to the import fee the projected figure to cover the mare's credits will fall way short.

You would think the panel - with all their experience - would have been able to think a little bit more laterally as to where they source their funds from.

To come out and slug a certain percentage of owners whom are doing their part for the sport bringing in racing animals that will help derive betting turnover and interest is a serious flaw. In fact some suggest it is so flawed that the reason it was suggested was to protect vested interests, and if you look at the panel, there is certainly vested interest there.

Spend a bit of time over the next few weeks looking at the owners whom purchase ex Kiwis and see how many go and re-invest. Quite a few. There are many groups or syndicates whom purchase more than one horse from abroad.

Have a look at this article posted last Thursday by Lenny Baker. There is plenty of upside to being able to go and purchase going horses from a ready made market. Domestically this market is very immature and barely exists.

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=91020

We need to be encuoraging more of this, not setting up barriers that will actively discourage it or certainly put downward pressure on the numbers being purchased.

I just do not understand why you would want to make horse ownership more difficult.

[triplev123]

G'day TBM,

Knowing what you know of the racing product, of the wagering landscape, TAB legislation & so on what alternative source or sources of funding are there/might there be and how would you suggest they might be accessed/made available?

[smithy]

there will be no extra funding from wagering as long as the tab hold the monopoly and everyone else loses the court case (which they will unfortunately)

[triplev123]

QUOTE-

As an important participant in this review to date, we are interested in your views and invite comment by the due date via either:

Email:
panel@hra.harness.org.au
In writing:
Australian Standardbred Breeding Panel
C/- Harness Racing Australia
Level 1, 400 Epsom Rd
Flemington, Vic., 3031



A full copy of the report is available via the direct link above.

Kind Regards,
John Bagshaw
Chairman
Australian Standardbred Breeding Panel

-------------

[The Big Mile]

The Big Mile
Menangle Park
Menangle
NSW


John Bagshaw
Chairman
Australian Standardbred Breeding Panel
C/- Harness Racing Australia
Level 1, 400 Epsom Rd
Flemington, Vic., 3031




Dear Mr Bagshaw.,

I have a problem with the way you intend to fund the NBCS. Your main source of funding recommendation centres around the impost of an import fee on harness racing owners whom have the temerity and outright gall to import racing product to Australia. Heaven forbid, we need to bring back the death penalty.

So a suggestion needs to be made how we fund the $2.2 million required for hobby breeders to create more 4 legged beasts from ordinary mares, to trudge along to the sales every new year and moan how they had to buy back their awfully bred yearling.

That suggestion is: As you were former CEO of NSW lotteries, would you be so kind as to once a year ensure we know the numbers of lottery draw 666 in advance, so we can put on several winning tickets on behalf of the industry.

A Lottery Boat Race.

Then with the $20 million coming in annually, we can basically pay for every service fee in Australia for free, give the yearlings away to owners whom can race for the good dollars at the Big Mile and everyone is happy.

Is that too much to ask?

Yours Sincerely,

The Big Mile

[justdoit]

haha........funny;{

You have to be a Kiwi, or at least a descendent of.

[triplev123]

Justdoit writes [You have to be a Kiwi, or at least a descendent of.]

Geeze. Pound for Pound I reckon that's just about the nastiest thing anyone's ever said to The Big Mile. :p

[The Big Mile]

Justdoit writes [You have to be a Kiwi, or at least a descendent of.]

Geeze. Pound for Pound I reckon that's just about the nastiest thing anyone's ever said to The Big Mile. :p

Not wrong. I am offended. Fancy being labelled a Cuzzy Bro?

Still awaiting the numbers from Draw 666.

[triplev123]

Here's The Big Mile & Friends at Bondi Beach.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qy4iftwk5JM/SD2u68zKbOI/AAAAAAAADNU/BonoYX18DO0/s400/brotown.jpg

[The Big Mile]

Here's The Big Mile & Friends at Bondi Beach.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Qy4iftwk5JM/SD2u68zKbOI/AAAAAAAADNU/BonoYX18DO0/s400/brotown.jpg

Yeah awaiting the next load of contraband horseflesh from across the Tasman.

Better go, there is a container floating off Coogee and it has my Mach Three in it.

Time for a rap?

Yo yo yo, its me cuzzy bro,
slapping an import fee aint the way to go.

[nat]

Where did this all go left when I filled out the survey I just wanted equality in the fillies and mares and in the trotters in the futurities and a set plan for age racing so there is a goal to breeding and racing 2-3 & 4yld horses I have a few horse that are either NZ bred out of NZ mares or by NZ stallions and every time I register in a different state or breed to a NZ stallion it cost more. Putting up fees was the last thing in my head "WOW" just what I need as a Breeder Owner and Trainer more costs " Ive found a good horse now it will cost $20,000 instead of $15,000 Yeh its in NZ" " Ive found good broodmare in foal with a colt at foot But their in NZ" people I know would rather not have a horse if they had to settle for inferior one because of cost not everyone who buys from NZ is a millionaire. Look at all the good NZ horses we have seen brought and raced in Australia buy Australians don't drive people away from buying the best product available whether it be an Aussie or NZ horse how many NZ bred broodmares are out there in Australia ask yourself why. I don't want to see organizations and races propped up at the expense of Owners & Breeders the state bodies get enough now from me for a hobby.

[mango]

Was just wondering if anyone could explain to me how putting up the import fee has helped breeding in any way. The import fee was increased 3-4 yrs ago and I thought the money was to be directed into a broodmare scheme to help put more foals on the ground.

[Rob Nalder]

Mango,

From the get go let me say I do not agree with the import fee based on the fact Australia and NZ have a free trade agreement in place, so how it can be done in my view is very questionable.

Having said that HRNSW has recieved major funds from HRA to reinvest back into Breeding initiatives. From memory it has been around the $300,000 mark per annum. HRNSW has done so by putting into place things such as more Breeding Bonus's for NSW breed horses, also the Colonial Stallion Incentive scheme is another one that I know off. They may have done some other things also that I do not know about.

One thing I do know is that the increase in import fees has resulted in more horses coming into our state than ever before from NZ, so the fees are now just part of purchasing a Horse from NZ.

Each of our accredited Breeding assosiasions would know more about how the funding generated from import fees has been reinvested back into Breeding incentives. Hopefully they can jump in and further expand on same.

I will make a point of finding out exactly dollars raised and funds invested back into our sport via HRNSW and get back to you on same, hopefully by tomorrow.

All the best

[Gtrain]

Rob, while I understand and appreciate the concept behind the Colonial Stallion Incentive scheme, but I sense that NSW Studs, being more than aware of this incentive, have priced eligible colonial stallions slightly higher full well knowing that the breeder will pay $500 less. Good initiative but may have run its course. A Vicbred/BOBS/BC style bonus scheme for colonial sires may promote this breeding more. Interested to hear others thoughts if there is anyone left on this forum!!

Also, I'm certainly not taking a shot at you re your stallion either as I have previously stated on here that I thought he was fantastically promoted. However I have also said on here that Ithought he was slightly overpriced but I'm pretty sure that was before the colonial stallion scheme was implemented so definately not accusing you of anything!!

[Rob Nalder]

Gtrain,

The Blasters fee was set prior to the Colonial Stallion Incentive. I don't understand what you are saying about Stallion owners setting the Stud fee higher than it should be thinking they will get more mares. This would see the stallion owners ending up cutting there own throughts, as Breeders are always the best gage to judge if a stallion is going to get a chance at Stud carrier. The Incentive by the way is going to the Breeder not the Stallion owner. If you look at the criteria based around this Stallion incentive it is to help Breeders by going to our own home grown Grand Circuit performers. HRNSW has tried several different types of incentives to intice breeding numbers. For this endeavour I give them 10 out of 10. The nett result is that the few eligible Stallions this year all did better than the previous session in gaining mares to cover. I think the Blaster probably got the majority of mares under this scheme. His first session at Stud. Only because the breeders that went to him thought he represents what they are looking for at the Fee set for his 1st session. Having said that the Blaster covered 110 mares with 80 percent 42 Day positives so year one was a good result when he went off to stud late in the year. This season coming up ,we are looking at trying to crack the 150 mark in mare numbers. If we can then it will all be up to his off spring to deliver what we feel he will. Just imagine if what I hear is correct and Bettor's ends up going to $19,000. Just incredible to contemplate. Grant, you are in titled to your opinion and in no way am I upset by what you have expressed as we all need to have a view on what works best. Until we get fixed stallion numbers we will always do it hard in getting a spread of mares, thus effectively lowering costs to breed a foal.

All the best and I do look forward to following other people's thoughts and views a stack of issues,

[Gtrain]

Rob I really appreciate the debate and value your opinion on this. It may be the cynic in me but history indicates that when a rebate on anything is offered it almost inevitably leads to an inflated price. I understand that it may not help to get more mares but if you were going to stand your stallion for $2200 as that is what you value him at, hypothetically speaking, and that is what you think breeders will have him valued at, then putting his fee at $2500 or $2700 isn't completely out of reason full well knowing that breeders then see that price as $2000 or $2200 with the HRNSW to cover the excess.

I thought the incentive was a fantastic head start our colonial sides had on the "opposition" when it was announced AFTER stallion fees had been set for the season. I may be cynical but government rebates throughout history have worked this way.

Let's not forget that CB did offer free foal registration also. Now THAT is an offer that I find it hard to be cynical about!

Further to this, I feel that a rebate will do nothing to assist progeny yearling sale prices. Well I know it certainly won't positively effect it. I keep thinking that a breeders bonus scheme for when the horse begins racing helps foal value throughout its career.

I think we are on the same page about increasing foal numbers. Sustainability of our industry needs more successful Australian owned stallions. My feeling is the rebate worked for season 1. Let's look elsewhere and continue to think outside the box to find another way to promote and encourage breeding to Australian owned stallions.

[mango]

Hi Rob

Thankyou for your reply, first of all I would like to say congrats on C B first year at stud. I thought when the import fee was increased it was for a broodmare scheme, more fillies mare's race's which would of worked if all states got together and worked it out. I for one don't agree with H.r.n.s.w putting money from the import fee towards the Colonial stallions incentive. Broodmare owners select there stallion choices for a whole wide range of reasons such as type, size, crosses and what they can afford and what is commercial come sale time. If h.r.n.s.w wanted to help by using the import fee they should of put it towards lowering rego fee's for foals that way every broodmare owner in n.s.w would of got something from the import fee and just not the people who choose to go to a Colonial bred stallion.

[Rob Nalder]

Mango,


First up this is about a debate & not about giving it to one another. I do understand and respect the right of others having an opinion, however one needs to fully understand all the information around the issue, prior to going out and saying something that is just not on the mark.


Let me try and respond to each one of your points.


To my knowledge it ( funds from import fees) was never going into fillies & mares races. The subject of Fillies & Mares Races in a separate issue / debate that we can get into latter.
HRA told each State that the funds derived from Import fees was to be used on Breeding assistance to breeders generally. HRNSW has tied several things to this end.
Your opinion on weather or not the Colonial Stallion incentive is worth anything needs to be based around some form of factual information. Let me make a point that needs to be made, CB fee structure was decided upon well in advance of the Colonial incentive from HRNSW Being made public. Once we found out about what HRNSW was doing we tried to help further by paying for the Foals Rego fee. In other words we endeavoured to match a positive with another positive. So the big winner is the Breeder on both counts from HRNSW & The Blaster team. Further more we instigated / organised to undertake a full survey by contacting each Breeder via electronic media and asked a raft of questions that ended up totalling 20 pages. This was carried out after the yearling sales had been completed. These finding / results was then made available to the interested parties. To say it did or did not help the Blaster I could not answer, as we had nothing factually to compare him to. Next year / this coming session we should have a better understanding of same. What I can tell you is that all existing Stallions that qualified under the Colonial Stallion assistance system, all covered more mares than at any time over the previous 2 - 3 years. This to me reflects a positive trend that needs to be followed up.


All our planning was based on CB covering 100 + mares in his 1st year, and this he did. We could have been somewhat bullish in our assessment but you need to aim for a target & go for it.


Anything that helps and assists Breeders in anyway in my mind is great for the industry.


Now on to your next points.


HRNSW have been trying a range of things that all help the Breeder. For instance, they have lowered the cost of Breeders Challenge eligibility by around $90 + Another $90.00 saving if you go into the Breeders Challenge you no longer have to pay any Naming fees. Both of these savings to Breeders & Owners, have taken up all, everything from what HRA has given to HRNSW to put back into Breeding, in my opinion. The spend on both of these two items alone is massively over what the Stallion Incentive System has given back to the Breeders. But once again it is about trying to cover as many people as you can.


I know our foal numbers are declining Nationally & internationally also. This is a World Wide trend. But one very major positive that we all need to understand, NSW with everything HRNSW are doing & have done over recent years has resulted in this State showing the least percentage decline against all other States & NZ. Furthermore if you go back just a couple of years ago and look at 2011 & 2012 Breeding results NSW had in fact shown two consecutive breeding years of growth in foal numbers. So it can be done.
That of reversing the trends.


What we need to understand is that it is not about you & I, it is about HRNSW looking after as many of us as can be done, so everyone has a bit of what they feel is important to them.


Finally if you have anything positive you feel that "The Blaster" should be doing to help with foal numbers please let us know.


All the Best.

[Gtrain]

Thanks for the reply Rob. Some very good, statistically based points. HRNSW does seem the most active state in trying to increase foal numbers and to myself as a breeder, I feel the reduction in Breeders Challenge/Foal nomination and drop of the naming fee are good steps. I was never quite sure why we did ever have to pay a naming fee as to the self confessed uninformed, it did seem a large fee in comparison to the actual job at hand.

I also attended one of the breeding seminars HRNSW put on and found it to be an extremely valueable and informative excerise. Another great incentive.

Im not pot shotting HRNSW as I can see how active it is in stimulating breeding in this state. I still (cynical old me), think that the Stallion Rebate may have run its course and doubt its ability to increase foal numbers. I feel it isnt entirely assisting the breeder for my previous mentioned reasons.

I am attracted to breed to Victorian based stallions, and have done in the past, as I feel their Vicbred scheme is still superior to ours, although Breeders Challenge is slowly closing the gap.

I hope this discussion can continue and some great feasible ideas are generated because I am sure that there are more than the three of us who feel strongly about this.

[mango]

Mango,


First up this is about a debate & not about giving it to one another. I do understand and respect the right of others having an opinion, however one needs to fully understand all the information around the issue, prior to going out and saying something that is just not on the mark.


Let me try and respond to each one of your points.


To my knowledge it ( funds from import fees) was never going into fillies & mares races. The subject of Fillies & Mares Races in a separate issue / debate that we can get into latter.
HRA told each State that the funds derived from Import fees was to be used on Breeding assistance to breeders generally. HRNSW has tied several things to this end.
Your opinion on weather or not the Colonial Stallion incentive is worth anything needs to be based around some form of factual information. Let me make a point that needs to be made, CB fee structure was decided upon well in advance of the Colonial incentive from HRNSW Being made public. Once we found out about what HRNSW was doing we tried to help further by paying for the Foals Rego fee. In other words we endeavoured to match a positive with another positive. So the big winner is the Breeder on both counts from HRNSW & The Blaster team. Further more we instigated / organised to undertake a full survey by contacting each Breeder via electronic media and asked a raft of questions that ended up totalling 20 pages. This was carried out after the yearling sales had been completed. These finding / results was then made available to the interested parties. To say it did or did not help the Blaster I could not answer, as we had nothing factually to compare him to. Next year / this coming session we should have a better understanding of same. What I can tell you is that all existing Stallions that qualified under the Colonial Stallion assistance system, all covered more mares than at any time over the previous 2 - 3 years. This to me reflects a positive trend that needs to be followed up.


All our planning was based on CB covering 100 + mares in his 1st year, and this he did. We could have been somewhat bullish in our assessment but you need to aim for a target & go for it.


Anything that helps and assists Breeders in anyway in my mind is great for the industry.


Now on to your next points.


HRNSW have been trying a range of things that all help the Breeder. For instance, they have lowered the cost of Breeders Challenge eligibility by around $90 + Another $90.00 saving if you go into the Breeders Challenge you no longer have to pay any Naming fees. Both of these savings to Breeders & Owners, have taken up all, everything from what HRA has given to HRNSW to put back into Breeding, in my opinion. The spend on both of these two items alone is massively over what the Stallion Incentive System has given back to the Breeders. But once again it is about trying to cover as many people as you can.


I know our foal numbers are declining Nationally & internationally also. This is a World Wide trend. But one very major positive that we all need to understand, NSW with everything HRNSW are doing & have done over recent years has resulted in this State showing the least percentage decline against all other States & NZ. Furthermore if you go back just a couple of years ago and look at 2011 & 2012 Breeding results NSW had in fact shown two consecutive breeding years of growth in foal numbers. So it can be done.
That of reversing the trends.


What we need to understand is that it is not about you & I, it is about HRNSW looking after as many of us as can be done, so everyone has a bit of what they feel is important to them.


Finally if you have anything positive you feel that "The Blaster" should be doing to help with foal numbers please let us know.


All the Best.

Hi Rob

Thanks for the reply and you have cleared a bit up for me

CHEERS

DALLAS

[eliteblood]

This is an interesting discussion and all points of view are valid.
It is conceivable that a Colonial Stallion rebate could be absorbed by the stallion owner by way of the service fee being set higher than would otherwise have been the case.
The Colonial Stallion incentive is selective in that it provides no benefit to mare owners who prefer to breed to an imported stallion.
Increasing the earning potential and therefore the value of fillies and mares is IMO the single most significant opportunity to assist the struggling breeding industry.

Having said that, how big a boost would it be to our breeding industry and everybody involved if we could get to a situation whereby our top colts were able to retire with substantial stud values (ala the Golden Slipper winner in the thoroughbred world). How much better off would we all be if most of our service money stayed onshore in the pockets of our own country's owners and breeders with the likelihood that much of it would be reinvested within the industry. Wouldn't it be good to be selling yearling colts with a potential sire value factored into the prices.
Having had access to the worlds best stallions for 20 odd years now, I think we are closer than ever before to breeding colts whose credentials stand alongside those from North America. Will we ever overcome the perception that our horses are inferior and the prejudice shown to them as stallion prospects? I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. It is still a long road to be traveled and the Colonial Stallion rebate is a small step along the way. I think it has merit and should be supported.

What else would assist in making that goal more achievable?
- A Miracle Mile type race all setup at Menangle on a hot summer afternoon for 3YO colts to run world class times ?
- Restrictions on the number of mares a stallion can serve each year ?

[Gtrain]

The first suggestion seems a LOT more likely that the second Trevor. Definately a void in the schedule is an all out speed test for 3yos. I always wondered why the Len Smith was introduced for FFAs when the race mirrors the race that It's namesake introduced sixty years beforehand. I don't think your the first to suggest that one either Trevor but certainly seems a great idea. A race like that could look to build a carnival feel to Miracle Mile time. Instead of dropping all the group 1s on Len Smith and MM day, have more than one "feature" day. The 3yo could be the showpiece event on one of the prelims for the MM day. May lead to an invite to the MM for a 3yo..... Certainly would be appealing!

[Rob Nalder]

Trevor & Grant,


If the Stallion owner tried to pick up the $500 incentive the market & HRNSW would in my opinion respond accordingly.


Trevor, you are 100% correct in that the Incentive as offered by HRNSW is very selective in targeting Breeders - Mares going to a Colonial Breed Stallion over Imported / Shuttled Stallions. This is exactly why it has been done - set up. Nothing more nothing less. It is trying to attract support for Home Grown Product over the others.


What is being lost in this debate is that over the past 2- 3 years now HRNSW has offered incentives for Breeders - Mares of $500.00 to Breed a Foal then the next lot of Incentives was to Breed a Foal from a Mare not Breed from the year prior. Once again @ $500.00 going the Breeder. I know what was paid out on both of the above incentives & it did assist Breeders. Further more under the New Stallion Colonial Incentive this has also made a great difference in assisting Breeders that have gone this way. Is that not a great thing!


Did this raft of incentives / work, yes in my opinion anything that helps and assists Breeders is a great step forward.


Let us give The Board of HRNSW & Management credit for trying to find a positive to work with, all they are doing is now looking at another direction to attack in a positive way.


As I have previously stated to the Board & Management of HRNSW, has it worked for the Blaster, I can't answer this as we had no previously set of results to compare with. However if you look at the other Stallions that came under this incentive then it is no doubt it has worked as all such Stallions had massive percentage increases to mare numbers covered. Coupled with our finding based on a survey organised / undertaken with input I might add from both HRNSW & HRA.


I should also outline that "The Blaster Team" organised this fully independent survey carried out with all Breeders (Studs excluded) that had gone to the "Blaster" so as help / assist in finding there thoughts on a stack of questions. It was undertaken electronically & included 20 odd pages of results. This along with unedited replies was passed onto HRNSW & Management. The outcome - results give a very clear response to a stack of issues over the vast majority of Breeders that came back to us on same.


Once again as I have said the next view years will see who was right, having said that what is a better way, is there some other way that can & will help grow our Foal numbers?


If anyone has something let us all know what it is.


Now on racing matters outlined by Trevor / Grant, all I can say is NSWHRC & HRNSW are working together & through / towards a heap of alternatives that are looking to be massive changes if implemented, over the next few years. I could not support you BOTH more on changes & possible redirection of major Group Ones for NSW!


But like everything we need to see the positive & or negatives prior to undertaking any changes.


Just a quick one Grant, my view on Fillies & Mares Racing is very - very simple. The only way of making any difference is to implement Racing to Keep the Sexes divided. In other Words Fillies & Mares race together & never cross over until at Free For All level.


Keep the Dream going by Breeding a Foal, is what we all need to spread the message on.


All the Best,


Rob Nalder

[jackthepunter]

Imo if the sport ever wants to increase foal numbers, their needs to be a massive increase in prize money for the everyday country horse. The prize money Australia wide for these horses is pathetic. How can you expect owners/breeders to keep breeding and buying horse, when most of the time their racing for on average $4000 for a win. That wouldn't even come close to covering the cost of just that preparation for the horse. Their is far to much money around for two years, which imo is ruining alot of horses by racing them to hard to early and for the whole season, because owners and trainers know their is no money in the sport after their 2-3 year old season. As a result alot of horses and burned out by the end of their 4 year old season, which imo is why alot of these horses don't go on to be any good as open age horses.

[mango]

Bettors Delight $17,600