stallions

[pukpuk]

Here is a list of proven stallions. On performance, price, and any other criteria you can think of - in general - how would u rank them?

Art Major
Badlands Hanover
Bettors Delight
Elsu
Four Starzz Shark
Grinfromeartoear
Mach Three
McArdle
Real Desire

[mightymo]

Here is a list of proven stallions. On performance, price, and any other criteria you can think of - in general - how would u rank them?

Art Major
Badlands Hanover
Bettors Delight
Elsu
Four Starzz Shark
Grinfromeartoear
Mach Three
McArdle
Real Desire

bit hard for FSS, as his oldest proper crop are only about to race as 2yos.

IMO, i would rank the others as follows:

Art Major
BD/Mach Three
GFETE
Real Desire
Badlands Hanover
Mcardle
Elsu

[triplev123]

Bettor's Delight/Art Major
Mach Three
GFETE
Real Desire
Badlands Hanover
Mcardle
Elsu

These are mine. Basically agree with Mightymo's rankings & also his comment re: FSS.
In saying that I am hearing some very, very good things about his soon to be 2yo Oz breds. We shall see. I do like them, no question. The real sleeper is Artistic Fella. Unproven as yet of course. He was an absolutely outstanding racehorse and the more I see of his youngsters the more I like them. If he doesn't go on leave some extremely good racehorses here in Oz then not only will I eat my old lawn mowing shoes but also a rather grotty, sweat stained baseball cap that's been on the floor up in the back corner of the garage for 6 months or more.

[mightymo]

After all your negative comments on Art Major, and in particular his colts, im surprised you had him up at the top!!:):)

[triplev123]

Indeed. It was a rather magnanimous gesture on my part wouldn't you say? :rolleyes:

[thesushitrain]

bd/m3/art major

all equal for me, just a matter of who can get the most foals on the ground

but you've forgotten cullen, cuf and the 2 big western ideal stallions

[Greg Hando]

All figure's are Australasian 3yo and older quoted from Pepper Tree sale book 2011
Art Major 38.36% w/f
Badlands Hanover 26.40 % w/f
Bettors Delight 48.80 % w/f
Elsu not sure but not high
Four Starzz Shark not enough foal's but of foal's 3yo and older 40 % w/f
Grinfromeartoear 24.68 % w/f
Mach Three 44.36 %w/f
Macardle not sure
Real Desire only 2yo's 20.48% w/f
Courage Under Fire 37.64 % w/f
Christian Cullen 47.84 % w/f
I personally don't rate GFETE ,Badlands and Elsu
Hope this is of some assistance I think winners to foals is the best guide then affordability

[Termite]

Thanks for the 3yo and older stats Greg. In terms of where the dollars are in Australia and in terms of commercial appeal, I'm less interested in the aged data than the Juvenile data - particularly 2yo's. I'm sure that a resourceful poster will scratch out the total 2yo winners to foals for these stallions over Australian siring career. For this season, by my reckoning the 2yo winners to foals stats read as follow;

Mach 3 31%
American Ideal 26%
Art Major 23%
Bettors Delight 19%
Real Desire 16%
Modern Art 14%
Grin 9%
Life Sign 6%

[triplev123]

Just a word of caution fellas. I'd take any sires stats published in any sales catalogue anywhere with more than a few grains of salt.

[thesushitrain]

... those stats are only going to tell you what you already know, good stallions get good mares and throw good horses

[Greg Hando]

2yo winners this year so far
ART MAJOR USA 53
BETTORS DELIGHT 17
MACH THREE CA 17
MODERN ART USA 17
REAL DESIRE USA 16
ELSU NZ 15
ARMBRO OPERATIVE 13
GRINFROMEARTOEAR 13
LIFE SIGN USA 13
ARTISCAPE USA 11
FALCON SEELSTER USA 10
VILLAGE JASPER USA 10
WESTERN TERROR USA 10
BLISSFULL HALL USA 9
NORTHERN LUCK CA 9
PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA 9
LIVE OR DIE USA 8
MCARDLE USA 8
JET LAAG USA 7
METROPOLITAN USA 7

[justdoit]

Art Major, not one person could doubt his dominance.
Mach Three, If he had been managed better at the start of his stud career in Australia & NZ he would have had many more winners and be seen in a better light by many more people.

[thesushitrain]

im a massive m3 fan... the top stallions go in cycles

auckland reactor was touted as a bigger superstar then sushi sushi is atm... millwood meg was the best filly last season
now carabella and bettor cover lover, bellas delight, aussie made lombo all stars

[triplev123]

Art Major, not one person could doubt his dominance.
Mach Three, If he had been managed better at the start of his stud career in Australia & NZ he would have had many more winners and be seen in a better light by many more people.

[VVV] This is what looking at numbers of winners in isolation & so without taking into account the number of foals each of them have...gets you. Here in Australia that is IMO a HUGE, HUGE FAULT in the way our Sires Stats are represented.
For example, in Australia, Art Major actually has nearly 3 times as many current 2yos (223) as does Bettor's Delight (80) & nearly 5 times as many as Mach Three (48)... so barring an absolute blow-out season it's not particularly hard to dominate the field under those circumstances.

Copied and pasted from Greg's post... and with the foal numbers added beside each sire in brackets, it puts things into a far better pespective. It makes it very clear that in amongst the sires on that list are some sterling efforts and there are some shocking efforts.

2yo winners this year so far
ART MAJOR USA 53 (223 foals)
BETTORS DELIGHT 17 (80 foals)
MACH THREE CA 17 (48 foals)
MODERN ART USA 17 (116 foals)
REAL DESIRE USA 16 (83 foals)
ELSU NZ 15 (109 foals)
ARMBRO OPERATIVE 13 (147 foals)
GRINFROMEARTOEAR 13 (147 foals)
LIFE SIGN USA 13 (218 foals)
ARTISCAPE USA 11 (77 foals)
FALCON SEELSTER USA 10 (42 foals)
VILLAGE JASPER USA 10 (115 foals)
WESTERN TERROR USA 10 (62 foals)
BLISSFULL HALL USA 9 (167 foals)
NORTHERN LUCK CA 9 (98 foals)
PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA 9 (44 foals)
LIVE OR DIE USA 8 (50 foals)
MCARDLE USA 8 (34 foals)
JET LAAG USA 7 (73 foals)
METROPOLITAN USA 7 (59 foals)

[thesushitrain]

Art Major, not one person could doubt his dominance.
Mach Three, If he had been managed better at the start of his stud career in Australia & NZ he would have had many more winners and be seen in a better light by many more people.

i doubt his dominance, simply a case of numbers on the ground

[aussiebreno]

Life Sign....makes for poor reading. 13/218

[triplev123]

Life Sign....makes for poor reading. 13/218

I think his biggest problem is/was that he seemed to have a narrow range as far as the type of mares that he would really hit it off with.
At the other end of the scale, the most successful sires on there would get winners from virtually any old bat that you'd care to send their way, pretty much just so long as they had a pulse they were a chance. I know I periodically blow his trumpet but as far as Bettor's Delight is concerned, no greater indication of his extreme siring versatility could there possibly be than for him to have topped the US, AUS & NZ 3yo Sires Earnings & Individual Winners Lists in the same year (2011). He's working right up at the top level across 3 vastly different broodmare bands. I think that's incredible, certainly uprecedented.

[Greg Hando]

Thank's Triple for the foal's number's it almost complete's the riddle of who is best now to work out percentage's at the end of the season

[justdoit]

I agree with you both TripleV123 & Thesushitrain, it is about time to limit the stallion books, it will make for a more even playing field:\

[triplev123]

Thank's Triple for the foal's number's it almost complete's the riddle of who is best now to work out percentage's at the end of the season

[VVV] Nah, you don't get off that easy Greg. ;)
The problem now is how to factor in their respective progeny earnings. Some sires smash the winners to foals %'s but each one of their winners knocks over 1 or 2 bread and butter races & overall his earnings at the end of the season prove to be bugger all.
Others aren't quite so good at winners to foals but when you get a good one they win everything. If you work out how to do it...can you please let me know?
The closest to perfection I've seen are Pecky's Sire Ratings in HRI.

[triplev123]

I agree with you both TripleV123 & Thesushitrain, it is about time to limit the stallion books, it will make for a more even playing field:\

[VVV] NO WAY KNOWN I would support limited books. Never beat Restriction Of Trade legislation anyway.

[eliteblood]

i doubt his dominance, simply a case of numbers on the ground

I think it is more than simply a case of numbers on the ground.

Art Major is a great stallion because he consistently produces top class racehorses, such as Art Official, Santanna Blue Chip and Major in Art in USA as well as Sushi Sushi, For A Reason, Lady Euthenia and Renaiisance Man in Australia (not to mention his best son in Australia, Oscar Lane :))

In the USA, from only 4 crops of average size for a high profile stallion up there, Art Major
- was the leading 2YO sire with his 1st and 3rd crop and is currently in 2nd position with his 4th crop
- has sired 3 Woodrow Wilson winners
- is the only sire ever to have 4 with records better than 1:48

I Australia he was leading 2YO sire with his first crop in 2008/09 (earnings record) and is currently a runaway leader in 2YO sire in 2010/11 (breaking his previous earnings record). His offspring are regularly winning the races that matter.

In evaluating stallions I think it is important to look beyond statistics like winners / foal and consider the quality of those winners and the ability of the stallion to consistently produce high class individuals.

Art Major, Bettors Delight and Mach Three are world class stallions and stand apart from the other stallions mentioned in this thread. Numbers of foals are a factor but there is more to it then that.

[thesushitrain]

trevor, you HAVE to look at the stats to look at averages

racing is a numbers game, all of those top stallions have thrown classy horses exactly as you've mentioned

he may have set records for earnings but he also would have set records for the amount of foals on the ground, not to mention that hes to only top stallion to have been standing in nsw when the breeders challenge AND sire stakes were running together, so is it any surprise that with the most foals on the ground in the season, in a season where the home bred prizemoney is strong that he had high earnings?

and as far as the US is concerned, western ideal is THE top stallion bar none!

[Flashing Red]

[VVV] NO WAY KNOWN I would support limited books. Never beat Restriction Of Trade legislation anyway.

That actually requires someone to challenge it - and not too many people in the harness industry would actually have the time or the money to do so. When EI hit, my constitutional law lecturer said that stopping the movement of horses was also a restraint of trade and if challenged would be successful. There wasn't a peep from the industry, despite the fact that a lot of good horses missed a lot of good races because of it....

[aussiebreno]

That actually requires someone to challenge it - and not too many people in the harness industry would actually have the time or the money to do so. When EI hit, my constitutional law lecturer said that stopping the movement of horses was also a restraint of trade and if challenged would be successful. There wasn't a peep from the industry, despite the fact that a lot of good horses missed a lot of good races because of it....Alabar would surely dispute something that would cost them a lot of sales.
But you are right for the time and money with EI. Plus harness racing people are generally sensible; and know whats 'right' so tendency to dispute the EI is low. Also, a lot of trainers are hobbyists and don't have to declare income (if they were lucky enough to get income!!) therefore aren't really trading.

[pukpuk]

cellent replies guys - thanx. I agree on the list - Art Major. bettors and M3 are head and shoulders above the rest.
However, as breeders, if you had 2 or 3 mares and say 12g, would you breed only one to one of the above, OR split it a amongst some of the others OR have a punt on a few untried ones. ( some of the other mares on the list are very affordable at the moment.
Lets suggest breeding to race as breeding to sell is a no brainer.

[eliteblood]

trevor, you HAVE to look at the stats to look at averages

racing is a numbers game, all of those top stallions have thrown classy horses exactly as you've mentioned

he may have set records for earnings but he also would have set records for the amount of foals on the ground, not to mention that hes to only top stallion to have been standing in nsw when the breeders challenge AND sire stakes were running together, so is it any surprise that with the most foals on the ground in the season, in a season where the home bred prizemoney is strong that he had high earnings?

and as far as the US is concerned, western ideal is THE top stallion bar none!


Sushitrain, you don't seem to accept my suggestion that one needs to go beyond simply looking at stats and then you suggest that Western Ideal is the best stallion in the USA bar none. On what basis have you come to that opinion. I have included the current season stats below to help you answer that question.


SIRE STATISTICS 2011
Leading Money Winning Sires in 2011
2-Year-Old Pacers

Sire Name Foals Earnings
MACH THREE (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=2555) 137 $1,104,015
ART MAJOR (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=651) 94 $1,054,520
DRAGON AGAIN (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=57387) 139 $1,006,445
ROCKNROLL HANOVER (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=843107) 155 $817,937
WESTERN IDEAL (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=52909) 88 $776,490
YANKEE CRUISER (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=813154) 89 $666,357





SIRE STATISTICS 2011
Leading Money Winning Sires in 2011 3-year-Old Pacers

Sire Name FoalsEarnings
BETTOR'S DELIGHT (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=7051) 132 $3,180,495
ROCKNROLL HANOVER (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=843107) 159 $2,915,326
ART MAJOR (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=651) 147 $2,646,003
WESTERN HANOVER (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=164069) 128 $2,503,213
CAMLUCK (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=210887) 134 $2,320,900
WESTERN IDEAL (http://pathway.ustrotting.com/online-reports/name_search.cfm?horse_id=52909) 83 $2,308,132

[thesushitrain]

western ideal was the leading 2yr old average earnings sire 2010 (by a huge margin), 2nd on 3yrs 2011, and 3rd on the 2 yr old 2011...

speaking of classy individuals, his son RNRH absolutely gapped the 3 yr old 2010

your 'stats' are heavily manipulated by how many foals are on the ground, which is why you look at averages..

and thereforewestern ideal is the leading stallion

[triplev123]

There's one VITAL aspect that nobody seems to be taking into account here and that's the relative/comparitive quality of the books of mares they served in order to get to where they are at present.
For example, he's now standing at Hanover, but I think it's fair to say that Yankee Cruiser punched his way out of Ohio by way of his demonstrated ability to leave good racehorses from relatively ordinary mares. From the 2yo list above you'll note he is within 100k of Western Ideal in 2yo progeny earnings with virtually the same number of mares but while they're both at Hanover and ther respective 2yo crops were produced there, you can guarentee Western Ideal served better quality mares head to head. For mine, it is big ticks for Yanke Cruiser to date but of course there's still a long way to go.
Then consider Mach Three's surge to the top of the 2yos this season. That is almost entirely OSS $$$ and it comes as a direct result of him receiving more & better quality mares in the wake of Somebeachsomewhere's outstanding efforts. More mares, better mares, progeny racing almost entirely in the lucrative OSS system. How many 'Doing a good job at Stud' woggles does he get for that? Weigh it up as you see fit.

There are other external to breeding factors which should not be dismissed as they greatly influence these lists too.
In the next season or two, and it will be absolutely no reflection whatsoever on the siring ability of the horse, due to the immense upheaval in NJ (if he remains there) you can reasonably expect Rocknroll Hanover to start to slip a bit on the 2yo & 3yo Earnings Tables and that would be in complete lockstep with the widely discussed expected decline in the NJSS purses.
Maybe when he goes back up there after this Southern Hemisphere season you'll find he will immediately head off to Pa. or to NY or to Ontario...to stand somewhere that the SS purse structure is more lucrative than it is apparently going to be in NJ.

Sometimes the story is just as the figures suggest. Other times, it's not.

[eliteblood]

Yes, he had a very good 2YO crop last year (3YO's this year) and has been having a great run lately, although Big Jim has just broken down and probably won't race again. He was a good racehorse, is beautifully bred and has been a good stallion throughout his career.
You will have noted however that his 3rd on the 2YO average earnings this year still places him just behind Art Major :) and that his 3YO average earnings in 2010 didn't place him in the top 20.

[thesushitrain]

early days yet


anh what are your thoughts on sushi's type, ill admit i havent seen him up close since victoria derby and at the apg as a 2 yr old... doesnt look much like an art major.. his mother stamped all over him??

[eliteblood]

early days yet


anh what are your thoughts on sushi's type, ill admit i havent seen him up close since victoria derby and at the apg as a 2 yr old... doesnt look much like an art major.. his mother stamped all over him??

I agree he is not the typical Art Major. He doesn't particularly look like Sabilize either (that's her on my avatar) although he has a lot of her characteristics - gait, speed, temperament. She also didn't carry a lot of weight when she raced. Sabilize is 16.1 hands and I am surprised that Sushi did not grow bigger than he has. He is not small however as some on this forum have suggested - I would guess 15.2 hands.

[thesushitrain]

i meant more his head and neck are not the typical AM look

hes not small, but hes not heavily built and paul always has him lean when its time to step out

[justdoit]

I'm starting to understand the key to making a successful sire.
(1) The sire needs to breed lots and lots of mares
(2) He should breed lots and lots more mares
(3) Make sure he breed lots and lots of mares
(4) Breed better mares(lots and lots)
Hang on a minute, in the USofA the limit is 140 for pacers? bad memory and they have the better mares in the country.
In Canada the books are open and much like Australia the broodmare population is made up such quality that if the price of feed goes up a
$1.05 that their ever so well bred broodmare will next week be standing in line at Kitchner? bad memory again .

I find it very difficult to separate the top sires without knowing each individuals circumstances.

On another topic, have the father in-law working nights, he is keen to fill in until the new guy starts:) my mother in-law loves me!
Received a letter asking for payment of x$$$ or further action will be taken? I need help with my reply can anyone
tell me how to scan in color?canonimagerunner, a young guy here would like the reply to be his buttock. But:) only if it is in colour.hahaha
sorry but:) this has made my day.