Do you like it with the lights on or lights off?

[justdoit]

Have had mares under lights for 6 weeks, rugged and feed well.
Is it really worth it? is having an early foal that much more of a benefit?

[thesushitrain]

yes if your selling
we do it for mares coming off the track (the lights)

feeding is very important, rugging is either way - cold doesnt worry them too much if they have the feed

[triplev123]

In theory I think it's a good idea to get an early jump...getting the dry mares PTIF and out of the way early in the year obviously gives you more time to spend on those foal at foot old bats that give you grief later in the season.
When those under lights mares foal down early though, I reckon it is a good idea to try & stable them, especially at night and definitely so in bad weather. I think you have to make sure that the resultant foal doesn't get exposed to the last licks of the Winter cold because if you get a sustained really cold/cold/very cool Spring...and that does happen from time to time and more often in some areas than others...then I think you've wasted your time. Your nice early foal will spend all the energy from the food it takes in for the first 4 -6-8 weeks of its life just trying to keep warm rather than growing.

[thesushitrain]

+ the early start might give that extra breeding cycle that is the difference between a foal and empty

[justdoit]

Thanks guy's, I just got the power back.

[Greg Hando]

No good serving a mare till the grass seed's light's is mucking around with nature you can't serve until Oct any way so are you that far ahead

[Love Of Courage]

http://www.harnessracingforum.com/images/icons/icon3.png Do you like it with the lights on or lights off?


I cannot believe that nobody has commented about the original title of this thread . Had to look just to see what "justdoit" was talking about !

http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/v1/designs/10390032,height=150,width=150,lights-off.pnghttp://img.oo.com.au/prod/HMHCGLSNOS/1t120.jpg

[mango]

No good serving a mare till the grass seed's light's is mucking around with nature you can't serve until Oct any way so are you that far ahead

Peppertree are sending semen out from the 14th of september.

[Love Of Courage]

Peppertree are sending semen out from the 14th of september.

I saw the same thing in the promotional material. Is that for NZ breeders not Aus ? as I thought 1st October in Aus ?

[mango]

I've been informed it's for Aus as well.

[Greg Hando]

Peppertree are sending semen out from the 14th of september.

Well dont get any for a mare in aus i think you'll find it is breaking the rules the semen would be going to NZ ONLY NOT HERE

[justdoit]

NSW the wild west of harness racing hahaha

[justdoit]

Many years ago my local watering hole had a publican with the last name Hando, he was the best, awesome ale and the best food. Great people.

[Greg Hando]

Where about's at justdoit

[justdoit]

Up at Wangarratta, quite a few years ago. I remember his nephew well, for the night he got what I wanted.

[Greg Hando]

Not sure which one but were all from the same mob one lot stayed in VIC another went to NSW and another went to QLD and yep we all like the grog and it doesn't matter what side of the bar were on and haven't known any of the ladies that couldn't cook make a good feed out of anything at all times

[justdoit]

Sounds very much like my family.

[mango]

Hi Greg

In the Peppertree brochure that i have recieved it states semen will be collected and sent out from the 14th of september i have also been informed that Rob has notified Harness Racing about this. He done a study on mare's being served earlier in the season to later in the season and off the top of my head the average for mare's being served early (oct) they were averaging going 23 day's over compared to mare's served later (late nov) which i think might of been around 9 day's over on average.

[thesushitrain]

haha...were these actual foaling dates..or the dates people put on the form when they send it in!! alot of foals born on the very first day of the foaling season!!

[triplev123]

Well dont get any for a mare in aus i think you'll find it is breaking the rules the semen would be going to NZ ONLY NOT HERE


[VVV] G'day Greg. It's not breaking the rules. Rob is quite within his rights to ship whenever he wants. When ht emares are bred is not the issue. Effectively, under the rules as written you can serve mares whenever you want...just don't have them foal down before the 1st of September otherwise you're buggered...it'll be registered in the previous season's foal crop and so be a yearling the day it's born. Starting to ship semen in the middle of September is perfectly Ok.

[triplev123]

Hi Greg

In the Peppertree brochure that i have recieved it states semen will be collected and sent out from the 14th of september i have also been informed that Rob has notified Harness Racing about this. He done a study on mare's being served earlier in the season to later in the season and off the top of my head the average for mare's being served early (oct) they were averaging going 23 day's over compared to mare's served later (late nov) which i think might of been around 9 day's over on average.

[VVV] Makes perfect sense to me.

[thesushitrain]

are any other studs doing this?

if not rockn roll heaven might be about to get another mare

[Greg Hando]

In the Peppertree brochure that i have recieved it states semen will be collected and sent out from the 14th of september i have also been informed that Rob has notified Harness Racing about this. He done a study on mare's being served earlier in the season to later in the season and off the top of my head the average for mare's being served early (oct) they were averaging going 23 day's over compared to mare's served later (late nov) which i think might of been around 9 day's over on average.

Wait until you get a normal season weather wise their will be a lot of foaly fired yearling's around the joint.
Yes Mango i saw that study and as you state early Oct served not Sept and going by 23 day's over on average (Sep ) that would make the foal's born on or before the Sep 14 or earlier and if foaled to the day or early the foal's would be born on or about Aug 21 is this correct ? Wait until you get a normal season weather wise and you will have trouble getting them in foal this early i would think just my thought's

[mango]

No matter how you look at it they will be born after the 1st of september if you know what i mean.

[aussiebreno]

No matter how you look at it they will be born after the 1st of september if you know what i mean.

Yep; its not like an August 30 foal is going to have its breeders rushing off to tell the authority!

Is there any examples of August (or earlier) foals?

[justdoit]

Who is asking?

In the next year or two the rules will change and you will be allowed to have foals born from the 1st of August onwards(money gets what money wants) and
it should be this way.
Benefits - yearling sales, etc etc:)

[triplev123]

The early foal routine is a myth, a furphy, it's an old wive's tale.
It's so out there and far from reality that you could be forgiven for thinking that John Messara had popped by & come up with it in order that it be added to all those other Pearls of Wisdom he expounded during the EI outbreak.
Over the years, at the Sales I've seen trainers put a pen through yearlings born after a given date, generally an arbitrary cut-off point that they happen to have stuck in the heads and with nothing concrete to back it up, and they'll do this without even looking at the individual. Absolutely ridiculous, IMO.
Individual is the operative word there. The fact is some youngsters are more mature that their counterparts despite having been born later and some are less mature that their counterparts despite being earlier.
Statistically, and I wish I could find a copy of the wastage study & report done here in NSW a few years ago now, more 2yo winners are born between the middle of October and the end of December than at any other point & contrary to popular belief, pound for pound the really early foals have no advatange over their later born compatriots.

[thesushitrain]

i think its still important for one main reason, by having an early foal you have a higher chance of getting your mare back in foal

more time left in the breeding season generally means more shots at getting them in foal... basically a broodmare is worthless if it isn't in foal

unless your sneakily foaling back in june (and have the freezebranders on your side) a small yearling is always going to be small come sales time

and aussiebreno, i'm sure there are early foals born, some studs or agistment farms would only to have a falling out with someone to end up in the shit for misreporting foal dates

[aussiebreno]

In the AFL draft and Under 18 state sides statistics show that kids born in the first half of the year far outweight the kids born in the 2nd half of the year. Forget the exact stat or a source but it was an amazing number the number of Jan-June kids compared to July-Dec kids. Remember these kids have 18 years growth, not 2 or 3, and hit puberty at different times; so as a GENERAL statement basing a human example to horses it would have to be of some benefit to have an early foal.
But I'd have also thought giving the foal full time to mature in the womb would be of more advantage?

[thesushitrain]

why dont we just officially bring the season forward?

solves a few problems brought up in the breeders panel paper
1, mares can be served an extra time for the end of the season = more foals on the ground out of quality mares that would otherwise miss
2, give an advantage to domestically based stallions who dont have to come back from america
3, the foals born are probably going to be dropped pretty close to the same dates (if the study cited by pepper tree is factual)

[mango]

Hi thesushitrain

Your number 2 advantage to domestically stallion's, i don't think it will make any difference as Peppertree stallion's are already here so i'd say others from America are as well.

[thesushitrain]

depends how early the season is brought forward i suppose...

i was looking at some breedings the other day from 5-10 years back and i couldnt help but notice how many foals were foaled 1st september, purely a fluke that the majority of these were stallions that weren't travelling back from america.... so it seems that some studs have already done what i've suggested under the table with empty mares or they were simply writing septemeber 1st on 40% of foals that are born

[Flashing Red]

why dont we just officially bring the season forward?

solves a few problems brought up in the breeders panel paper
1, mares can be served an extra time for the end of the season = more foals on the ground out of quality mares that would otherwise miss
2, give an advantage to domestically based stallions who dont have to come back from america
3, the foals born are probably going to be dropped pretty close to the same dates (if the study cited by pepper tree is factual)

Agreed.

[triplev123]

depends how early the season is brought forward i suppose...

i was looking at some breedings the other day from 5-10 years back and i couldnt help but notice how many foals were foaled 1st september, purely a fluke that the majority of these were stallions that weren't travelling back from america.... so it seems that some studs have already done what i've suggested under the table with empty mares or they were simply writing septemeber 1st on 40% of foals that are born

[VVV] That's a bit misleading TST. It's a man made anomaly in the stats.
What actually happened there was that during the changeover period from the individual State to the now National data base, a whole swag of horses were allotted September 1st foaling dates, this as opposed to their actual foaling dates.
There were reasons given as to why this happened/was done but I think it was simply for sake of expediency as much as anthing else.

[triplev123]

why dont we just officially bring the season forward?

[vvv] g'day tst. When it was moved to september 1st it was definitely done for reasons of fertility/increased conception rates.
The study that was done on getting mares in foal, the one which supports that move, still exists somewhere or other and is just as relevant today as it was when it was first done. A vet did it (her name escapes me) and she was as sharp as a tack as i recall.
The fact is that the majority of mares don't start to cycle until around now anyway & even then many of those are not up & rolling in any meaningful way to the point that they can be successfully served.
I pg'd a couple of dry mares on monday to put them through their paces so our vet could pre-breeding check them tomorrow morning, make sure that they were clean & healthy and ready to go and then we'll serve them when they come around naturally in the last week of september. Barring illness, accident or injury we'll get both of them ptif in one or two shots. Come the end of october/1st week of november they'll be done & dusted.

Solves a few problems brought up in the breeders panel paper
1, mares can be served an extra time for the end of the season = more foals on the ground out of quality mares that would otherwise miss

[vvv] perhaps but if you start up at the end of september and you're still swining at the old bat come the end of january there's something drastically wrong.

2, give an advantage to domestically based stallions who dont have to come back from america
[vvv] pay that one....big-time, certainly at least as far as locally bred sires go anyway. Very good idea. That being said, the problem we have at this point in time is that the majority of the best sires are still shuttle duty conveyances. In the years to come however, when we have set about the task of locally producing more of our own sires, for sure.

3, the foals born are probably going to be dropped pretty close to the same dates (if the study cited by pepper tree is factual)
[vvv] i can't see how that would ever happen. They'll get sprayed out across as much time as they're given to foal down. Some will go early, some will go late, some will go on time. Last season i remember eliteblood had a mare go a full 12 months ++++, we had one go 10 months & 3 weeks & a couple of days.




vvv

[thesushitrain]

that would explain it, i thought it did look peculiar how many had that date

i still stick by an idea of bring the breeding season forward, by say a month

but would everybody that already has a mare in a foaling cycle be upset that empty mares could get a head start on them

[Love Of Courage]

why dont we just officially bring the season forward?

solves a few problems brought up in the breeders panel paper
1, mares can be served an extra time for the end of the season = more foals on the ground out of quality mares that would otherwise miss
2, give an advantage to domestically based stallions who dont have to come back from america
3, the foals born are probably going to be dropped pretty close to the same dates (if the study cited by pepper tree is factual)

Why are the standardbreds 1 month behind with the thoroughbreds. Is it not that the kiwi standarbreds are 1 month earlier also.

Regards,

LOC

[eliteblood]

Harness racing changed its season from August 1 to Sept 1 in the early 80's based upon some research by a veterinarian named Virginia Osborne that suggested that the later start was more aligned to the mares period of maximum fertility. I believe the thoroughbred industry and the NZ harness racing industry were invited to do the same but declined.
A proposal to revert to Aug 1 was considered by the Australian Standardbred Breeders Association in 2009 and the decision was made to stay with Sept 1.
A fairly stinging editorial by John Peck in the Sept/Oct 09 Harness Racing International magazine was critical of a move from within NSW to have the starting date reviewed.
While November and December are the optimum months for getting mares in foal and while there is no evidence that early season foals have any advantage over later born foals on the racetrack, I don't see what all the fuss is about. If someone wants to try and get there mares in foal in September instead of waiting until October, who does it impact upon ?

[triplev123]

Nobody Eliteblood, it impacts on absolutely nobody. Good point.
Pecky's article was a bell-ringer btw.

[thesushitrain]

looks pretty clear cut to me gallopers and kiwi's are faster than us :p must be due to the extra month

[Greg Hando]

Just read the ready to run cataloue from NZ not many early foal's in it wait till the grass seeds and you'll have no trouble

[thesushitrain]

i obviously see what the increased fertility argument is, but if you give people the option, they can either leave them till the grass seeds (as greg does) or rug them out them under lights and trick them into thinking its late september when its still august

[Flashing Red]

Lights work good... I've never used them for broodmares, but artificial lighting has kept my former show horse's coats short through the winter (in the addition to plenty of rugs).

I would like to see the date either 1 August (or 1 January lol!). Whatever the date is, I think we should at least be the same date as NZ.

[justdoit]

Lights work good... I totally agree Flashing Red.

[dizzy]

Regardless of the arguement for what the foaling date should be I cant believe that people advocate lieing about the foaling date. It's not bad enough that the racing side in NSW is corupt, lets just have the breeders join in to. It doesn't matter if its the 1st of Sep or Aug their will still be people trying to go earlier to get a jump on their competitors.

So why not legislate the first day of the season a mare can be served on and stick to that like the gallopers. It doesn't matter if they are foaled before the 1st of Aug so long as the mare was not served early. In our industry will largely transported semen it would be even easier to police.

[thesushitrain]

that makes too much sense dizzy... and as such i can never see it being implemented over our current inferior system

[justdoit]

Good one Dizzy, I would imagine most people had thought that under the rules you could not breed before the 1st of October.
If the service certificate is correct and you happen to have a foal born early(August) what happens?

[triplev123]

G'day Dizzy,
There's a very distinct difference between acknowledging the virtual imposibility of policing the results of early breedings and people actively advocating lying about the foaling dates.
On a somewhat related 'honesty' topic, there are, I suspect, a number of ET's that are carried out each year that for want of a better term...'don't make the papers'. By the time the freeze branders come around to do their work, if the resultant ET foal is already weaned how could anyone determine otherwise? Like the TB's and their ludicrous claims that they do not use AI...it doesn't make it right but I'm sure that it happens. From time to time you'll come across some mares with rather suspicious breeding records and by that I mean mares that have been bred ET a number of times previously who all of a sudden miraculously regain their ability to carry foals to full term. I'm not aware that anyone is shipping in bottles full of water in from Lourdes in order to flush such mares. Things that make you go Hmmmmmm.

[justdoit]

The big players in the thoroughbred industry would not risk using AI. The sales rep's that go around telling everyone that the second biggest purchaser of AI products are the thoroughbred studs,
well they may need to spend a day on the job with a repro vet to see what their breeding pipets,lube,glove etc are used for.

[dizzy]

Justdoit

The service date is the critical date not the foaling date, i.e if the mare is served on or after the set first day for service then the foal is ok regardless of when its actualy born. If the mare was served prior to the first day for service and she foaled before the 1st of Sep then its a last season foal (that of course is if the authorities become aware of it's birth)

VVV unless your mare foaled unattended then someone who I presume is capable of reading a calender KNOWS what day it was foaled on. Anyone notifying anything other then that date to the authorities is lying. Something that some posters here IMHO are advocating and yes staff at the authority are doing likewise.

Don't foals still have to be on their dams to be freezebranded? Don't know if their are ET"S done that aren't listed as ET's but I'm sure that more then one ET is done in some instances from the same mare to increase the chance of a live foal.

After Sushi Sushi I'm sure many people will lose their apprehension about ET foals now anyway.