Best Value Stallion

[Jimmy]

Who would be the best value stallion under $5k in Aus and NZ at the moment?

[mightymo]

of the proven stallions Id say Live or Die, Badlands Hanover, Village Jasper, Armbro Operative

If I had to choose one, I'd go Live or Die

[nat]

I like Viiage Jasper as a tried and tested, there's just so many well credentialled stallions around but if you were going to take a punt on a fresh new stallion where would you start just look at Empire stallions along with Shadow Play(very nice looking horse), Million dollar Cam,Sportswriter even Changeover the list goes on. If your after a trotter gee's I think get onboard Skyvalley seen him at the open day nice racey looking horse he ran off with his halter and lead rope in his paddock when they were putting him away he was going that quick it was hard to beleive he was trotting boy he can move.

[Jimmy]

SkyValley, what a horse he was, i believe he will be justs as good in the breeding barn as well ! Village Jasper just gets winners every season and is great value.
Nat you have mentioned Shadow Play, he is a great looking horse, little brown jug winner and US Pacing Championship winner as well, he did have a few problems with his feet, but was a super race horse!
If i was looking for one out of the proven sires i would be leaning towards Village Jasper as well.
Would Gotta Go Cullect be value ?

[nat]

Jimmy I bred one of my mares to Gotta Go Cullect (due soon) I like the CC stallions around at the moment Gotta Go Cullen and Ohoka Arizona are a little closely bred to my Seelster mare and I would had bred to Pay Me Christian first but hes only avalible on farm in NZ (theres untapped potential). Shadow Play seen him up at Alabar a striking individual. I hope people get onboard Skyvalley he's as good as anything thats sent down under and we have seen him race

[Shannon]

Best value, Flashing Red. Free

[Southern Man]

Sky Valley value for money. You have to be joking. How can he be value at $3500A when the best trotting stallion Australasia has ever seen in Sundon is $3750NZ. An unproven horse against the leading sire of trotters. Qualifies Sky Valley as the worst value for money in this years market

[nat]

Hi Southern Man the point I am making and its not realy a point its a fact try breed to any trotter with a good record and whos blood is up on the edge in this part of the world and see how much it would cost you. Dont get me wrong Sundon has changed trotting in this part of the word for the good but how old is 26-7 it time to look to the forward

[Southern Man]

True value for Sky Valley would be more like $1500 not $3500. Two goes at the Interdominions for a third and a sixth and never raced in NZ. It will be very interesting to see how many NZ based mares he serves this year that are not owned by Nevele R.

[nat]

I would say the same thing for 90% of stallions going around this year they are all overpriced thats why nearly all the stud have call and make a deal hung out the front its a bit like breeding a Thoroughbred this year make a call and barter, By the way what would be a good price for Crazed, CR Commando, Muscles Yankee, Muscle Hill, Dream Vacation, Revenue, Southwind Vernon, Pegasus Spur, The Pres, Federal Flex, Majestic Son are all these horses worth the tag on the gate, no not really the way I equate Southern Hemisphere horses to North American is drop 4 second of their times and min. tripple their prize money where dose that put Skyvalley compaired to those above and he's the cheapist horse mentioned. Sometimes it take a good studs mares to kickstart a stallion career look at the US studs how many outside mares will Aukland Reacotor get without his owners support.

[Southern Man]

You are clutching at straws now. Most of the stallions you have mentioned are not only great racehorses they are proven at stud. Sky Valley raced in Victoria. Not the toughest place in the world to race. He won $320,000 mainly in age group racing in Australia and you think $3500 is cheap. Give it up

[nat]

Tell me where most of theses stallions raced and was it age group or open class and was it for massive prize money?

Im sorry he's not up to your lofty standards and I can see you dont rate him I have seen him race live in many of these age group and open company races and my opinion is he is as good as anything being imported and cheaper and he's by Muscles Yankee

[Southern Man]

All those stallions were dominant on the grand circut in North America. You cant seriously be comparing Victorian age group racing with that. You cant honestly believe that age group racing in Victoria is on a par with races such as the Hambletonian or Breeders Crown in North America. The gap between the two is of epic proportions.

[nat]

What makes you think that they have the best horses in the US they hardly dominate anywhere else in the world other than in their own back yard

[Southern Man]

So Victorian age group racing is on a par with age group racing in North America. So tell me the 3yr old that raced in Vicoria this year that is on a par with Muscle Hill, 1:51 $3,000,000+

[mango]

Southern Man
There's no 3yr old that will ever do that in Australasia and Muscle Hill was a great horse, but i do think Skyvalley is worth every bit of $3500 he's well bred and did a great job on the track. Now Muscle Hill did go 1:51 and Skyvalley 1:56 and change, Muscle Hill was trainned to race a mile where Skyvalley raced over different distances and had to be trainned to do so. I also think Skyvalley was an impressive looking horse and had a great gait and had he not broken down there's no telling what he might of gone on to do, now i'm not saying he would go anywhere close to matching Muscle Hill due to our trotting races over longer distances so i don't think he would get down to 1:51 but in saying that i think he is priced right to start his time in the breeding barn.

[nat]

This is the point I tried to make is he had the talent, speed, gate, pedigree and looks that many of the over priced trotting stallions that are available have. It appears some have little faith in our breeding and racing down under why cannot we be just as good as anyone we are in Thoroughbred industry and our breeding is light years ahead of theirs with AI. Our times will never compete with those countrys training to race one distance and prize money means little to me if our top races had the same money as in the US horse like Changeover and Lombo Pocket Watch would had been triple plus millionaires and never raced past 3ylds. By the way Changeover is worth a go at $4000 too

[Southern Man]

You people cant be serious. You have tio be aligned with the owners or the studs standing him because no other explanation makes any sense. His value is $1500 max. Not a cent more

[Thomas Johnson]

Nat you are right about Changeover. I saw him race when I was in New Zealand three or four years ago and I remember seeing him in the flesh at the races in Auckland. A very good looking horse at the time and by a horse that I just loved called In The Pocket. He was a great horse in his own right but was wasted here in the US as a result of been moved from state to state each year. I know In The Pocket has been a great sire there in New Zealand as I have kept a close eye on breeding Down Under. Changeover won a lot of money and if he had raced in the US and earned the money that he has on his card here he would have stood at stud here for huge money. By the way this looks like a good forum that I stumbled onto today. I have just registered and it is the first time that I have been involved with any forum so I hope it keeps going with sensible discussions.

[Termite]

Great value stallion is Sealed n Delivered. I think about 2 grand for a son of Falcon Seelster who was USTA 2YO of the year. Son's of the falcon have done alright in Oz and from a limited book this bloke looks to have a left a couple of okay horses in his first crop - including a gelding called Scan the Calls - won his 3rd race at Charlton today.

[nat]

Also throw in DAWN OFA NEW DAY watch his races and look at Royal Verdict and Beach Melody

[mango]

Armbro Operative: i think the plus for him is that he can throw both fillies and colts.

[nat]

There is so many good stallions around the only factors is the stallion best suited for your mare and is this a commercial or non commercial decision.

[justdoit]

Hi Nat,
To me the cost is the same to grow all of my horses be them good or very good on paper or crap and for sale.
Breeding to race or breeding to sell, If you don`t breed for success your broodmare is finished. It is that simple.
The dollar makes the end decision.IMO
I do not understand people that say they are breeding a cheap one to keep, lets say Fully Loaded $1500.
All other cost are the same. what are they saving? help me Nat.
Fully Loaded would have had a much better chance of making it if he did not stand his first year at the same time as
Astreos did.

Hi Mango, Armbro Operative fillies, I would not want to breed a colt.

[Flashing Red]

Also throw in DAWN OFA NEW DAY watch his races and look at Royal Verdict and Beach Melody

This is not in any way, shape or form knocking a stallion. It is merely about value stallions and then lookin at number and ratios. :)

Dawn ofa New Day (in Australia) last season had 60 2yos, 41 were named, only 16 got to the races and 6 of those were winners.

Out of those 6 winners, one was Royal Verdict (437k @ 2yo/year) and Beach Melody (42k, stakes placed) were the only ones of any note, with Harrys Day Out (11k, 7 starts 3 wins) showing some promise.

Perhaps more will come to the fore as 3yos, that may very well be the case. But, strictly speaking for value, I would have liked to see more runners and winners IMHO. :) Obviously it is very early in his siring career and may not be a true reflection of what is to come. But nevertheless they are cold, hard, statistics. :)

[nat]

Hi justdoit your right the bank decides most of the time
lets look at like this
Art Major the stallion of the moment producing the winners
Village Jasper Australia's top stallion

Who has the most yearlings in the Black Lable sale one is highly commercial and commands top dollar at the sales and the other highly thought of as a stallion as he gets the winners if I was to be sale orrientated I would'nt breed to a stallion that wont command top dollar at the sales as you said it cost the same to raise them. I went to the Lombo sale the Tailamaid lombo colt by Lombo Pocket Watch although a very nice looking colt he bought just over $40,000 if this was a Art Major, Betters Delight the price would had went through the roof

[triplev123]

G'day Troops,

In virtually all instances... save of course the rare superstar sire... you have to consider the opportunities that were afforded each sire by way of mare numbers and mare quality.
In that respect everyone's going to have their own views on what constitutes a good, bad or indifferent shot at the big leagues...however it is obviously reasonable to suggest that a horse like Dawn Ofa New Day got both significantly fewer and generally lesser quality mares than did the likes of Art Major. For Dawn Ofa New Day to then produce an Oz 2yo colt of the Year was really quite significant while had Art Major done so it would still have been an achievement but it would also have been somewhat expected of him.
Going back to the opening question of this thread... the best value sire under 5k in Australia at the present time, IMO, is Artistic Fella. I've only relatively recently come to this conclusion by way of seeing some of his first foals. If he doesn't make the grade as a sire here in Oz I'll eat my old Lawn Mowing Shoes.

[nat]

Hi Flashing Red

I wouldn't say DAWN OFA NEW DAY was highly patronized and even then seems to have a 50/50 ratio of foals to mares served (135 foals on the ground after 4 years of foaling) if this is what he is capable of off limited horses on the track 16 you say Royal Verdict an outstanding 2yld won everything then I just think at his price he would be worth some consideration.

[nat]

The hardest thing now is that there are so many well credentialed stallions available back in the eighties and nineties a horse like Art Major would had been number one and daylight second that's why opinions are so varied as there are so many different top blood line's combos available to the common breeder and at good prices and it is a virtual supermarket when picking a stallion now

[peacheymagic]

If we are talking about best value stallion we have to choose a stallion who is proven as first year sires cannot be regarded as best value as they have not produced any progeny. I would go for Falcon seelster a sire who can produce colts or fillies and is a proven broodmare sire, he is a stallion which has an all round game.

[Flashing Red]

G'day Troops,

In virtually all instances... save of course the rare superstar sire... you have to consider the opportunities that were afforded each sire by way of mare numbers and mare quality.
In that respect everyone's going to have their own views on what constitutes a good, bad or indifferent shot at the big leagues...however it is obviously reasonable to suggest that a horse like Dawn Ofa New Day got both significantly fewer and generally lesser quality mares than did the likes of Art Major. For Dawn Ofa New Day to then produce an Oz 2yo colt of the Year was really quite significant while had Art Major done so it would still have been an achievement but it would also have been somewhat expected of him.
Going back to the opening question of this thread... the best value sire under 5k in Australia at the present time, IMO, is Artistic Fella. I've only relatively recently come to this conclusion by way of seeing some of his first foals. If he doesn't make the grade as a sire here in Oz I'll eat my old Lawn Mowing Shoes.

Yet, Triplev, on another thread you stated something along the lines of a good stallion will produce great offspring with lesser quality mares. What side of the fence are you on? :P For mine only 16 to the races out of 60 doesn't cut the mustard (yet - but early days) and there was a huge difference between his best and then next ones along... To be fair, looking at his race record although a very nice stakes winning colt, he was not as good as for example Rocknroll Hanover or Lis Mara and I am guessing he will sire accordingly... :) There is the saying they can all sire a good one, let's see if he sires a good one this year too, hopefully for connections he will :)

[Flashing Red]

If we are talking about best value stallion we have to choose a stallion who is proven as first year sires cannot be regarded as best value as they have not produced any progeny. I would go for Falcon seelster a sire who can produce colts or fillies and is a proven broodmare sire, he is a stallion which has an all round game.

I agree.

Live or Die for me. Around $2,500 and he can produce Cup horses. Enough said :)

[Flashing Red]

G'day Troops,

In virtually all instances... save of course the rare superstar sire... you have to consider the opportunities that were afforded each sire by way of mare numbers and mare quality.
In that respect everyone's going to have their own views on what constitutes a good, bad or indifferent shot at the big leagues...however it is obviously reasonable to suggest that a horse like Dawn Ofa New Day got both significantly fewer and generally lesser quality mares than did the likes of Art Major. For Dawn Ofa New Day to then produce an Oz 2yo colt of the Year was really quite significant while had Art Major done so it would still have been an achievement but it would also have been somewhat expected of him.
Going back to the opening question of this thread... the best value sire under 5k in Australia at the present time, IMO, is Artistic Fella. I've only relatively recently come to this conclusion by way of seeing some of his first foals. If he doesn't make the grade as a sire here in Oz I'll eat my old Lawn Mowing Shoes.

Also had to add...

This is a reason why I like Four Starzzz Shark. While the past season his progeny have seemed to drop a little bit, earlier in the piece (the past few seasons) he was getting, statistic wise, in the US, the same amount of 1:55 or better 2yos and $100,000+ season earnings for 2yos as horses like Art Major. Art Major got more but he had more runners. Percentage wise they were almost the same. That is what first attracted him to me, as there is NO WAY the calibre of mares he recieved would have matched that of Art Major. It works both ways, I'm not a total discounting meanie and I don't look at statistics or ratios in a vacuum! :)

[justdoit]

Safely kept, Sundon. Happy to keep or sell progeny.

[mango]

Hi Flashing Red
Live or Die for $2,500 is that the deal there doing cause he's advertised for $4,400 ?

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red
Live or Die for $2,500 is that the deal there doing cause he's advertised for $4,400 ?

I stand to be corrected... I thought that was what he was advertised for last year, I have not looked him up this year, so you may well be right. Thanks. Even for 4.4k I would still class it as value!! Thanks and sorry :)

[triplev123]

That's the point I thought I made Flashing ? :confused:
There is no one side of the fence to this.

A bad sire simply cannot be helped no matter what level of mare quality/numbers he receives (Die Laughing for example, he got the virtual who's who of broodmares in his initial seasons and platzed with them).

A moderate sire might appear better than he really is given initially good quality/numbers of mares (The Panderosa, similarly in his initial seasons he covered a virtual who's who of the broodmare ranks at the time. I think this will see him become a prominent broodmare sire in years to come but that's another story).

A great sire will overcome any and all impediments to success including intially moderate to poor quality/quantity mare support (Christian Cullen, we've seen his efforts up close).

The really interesting aspect to all this for me at least is that once they're recognised & the commercial breeders come knocking on their door, those great sires that have come in from the cold don't then tend to produce much, much better racehorses than before, despite significantly increased quality & numbers of mares.
Christian Cullen is again a terrific case on point.
Despite him covering some of the best bred/producing mares in the Southern Hemisphere throughout numerous seasons IMO he hasn't produced horses of any greater ability than he did from his initial crops ex small numbers of mixed bag mares. He has simply produced a greater number of good horses. I think I might have said this elsewhere...but I believe that is because he was always a great sire, regardless. Better quality & greater quantity of mares would no doubt have greatly assisted a lesser horse than CC but he didn't need them in order to do well.

[peacheymagic]

Live or Die was my next choice Flashing Red he has produced several $100,000+ horses leaves colts and fillies and his service fee doesn't break the bank.

[trotpace]

Shadow Play
Santana Blue Chip
Artesian

[Shannon]

I like the first too mentioned. unproven tho but worth the gamble, and think to who they chased home that year. The mighty Somebeachsomewhere.
Shadow Play
Santana Blue Chip
Artesian

[nat]

Hi trotpace and Shannon

Shadow Play is a stunning looking Beast if you were walking around looking at horses and seen him in a paddock without knowing who he is he would be the one you want.

[trotpace]

Artesian is a better sire then most would think. He just hasn't seen enough quality mares.

[trotpace]

Don't be suprized if you see Santana Blue Chip's stud fee double after this first crop hits the track. Amazing horse. Amazing gait!

[Shannon]

Hi trotspace, I tossed up between santanna or major in art. I rung the stud at the last minute to change to major in art. Maybe hearing this i pulled the wrong string? Went for him over santanna purely for size as my mare not overly big
Don't be suprized if you see Santana Blue Chip's stud fee double after this first crop hits the track. Amazing horse. Amazing gait!

[trotpace]

I agree with those two but i went with SANTANNA BLUE CHIP. I favor his looks and gait over MAJOR IN ART.

Both are great.

[Shannon]

They were both same service fee price over here and major in art didn't chase a freak during his career.

[trotpace]

That's right. Look at the money Santanna Blue Chip made chasing the greatest standardbred in history!

[Flashing Red]

Did Santanna Blue Chip have a growing spurt since he retired? I've seen horses grow a full hand from 2-3 or 3-4. I know he was a little on the small side, just wondering if anyone who has worked with him or seen him at the stud could advise if he has grown at all since he has matured?? :) Thanks :)

[triplev123]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. They're ALL 15.2h Flashing. They're ALL 15.2h. :D

[buster]

beach melody certainly hasnt got any stronger this year

[justdoit]

Hi Nat,
Astreos also looked great:)

[Rids]

Guys;
I know this one is getting on a bit, but given the original thread has anyone considered Riverboat. Excluding this years crop of two year olds he has only 47 running around for 29 starters and 22 Winnners and averages out at $29,600 a starter. Granted Rohan Home loads his cannon a bit but just the same he value at $3,300. Maybe there is another out there that stacks better, i'd love to know.

[mango]

Hey Rids

Good call he is an underated sire and probably hasn't had the greatest mare's so what he's done is tremendous.

[triplev123]

Very good sire Rids, doesn't get near the credit he deserves. He has succeeded despite being badly managed all throughout his Sthn Hemisphere siring career.

[Gtrain]

Our Sir Vancelot, long in the tooth I know but for a sire who has average earnings over 23k per starter without throwing a superstar to blow that average up I think he has done a super job. Great bread and butter horses. Live or Die has to be there abouts. Throws champions from anywhere. What is the general concensus on Ponder? I dont know a whole lot about him but gee he is an impressive looking specimen.

[triplev123]

A long time successful Trainer here in Sydney was a pretty big wrap for the OSV's.
He mentioned how tough & how sound they were, how you could throw anything at them and they'd go home, eat up & come back again the following week for more of the same.
I had the pleasure of jogging him once. You could feel the power in him through the lines, even at that speed.

[Gtrain]

I had a little mare by him, used to try her guts out week in week out. No star. Just hope she leaves one with the same attitude but a little more speed.

[eliteblood]

What is the general concensus on Ponder? I dont know a whole lot about him but gee he is an impressive looking specimen.

Interesting that you mention Ponder. His oldest are 3YO's and yesterday he sired two of the three winners of the $210,000 Adios Betty for Pennsylvania bred fillies.
Ponder was a good tough racehorse and has a strong pedigree. His dam won $350k and is a half sister to Laughs, winner of $1.3 million. The $2.8 million winning Shark Gesture is from a half sister to Ponder.
I don't think Ponder got the patronage he deserved in Australia and he will probably never recover from that, but I have a good feeling about him. His oldest are 2YO's in Aust and he needs a few nice winners very soon or his siring career is in big trouble. Hopefully Pensare can give him his first winner at Bankstown on Friday.

[mango]

Hi Eliteblood

I think you are right he was a good tough horse with a strong pedigree but because he didn't serve big numbers he will struggle unless he get's a superstar over the next couple of months. From memory i don't think he had a real good 2yr old in the states last year either. I'm not sure why but i've heard it mentioned before to stay away from The Panderosa line and then again you see Shadow Play get a good book of mare's, maybe Ponder struggled to attract mare's due to Art Major and Grinfromeartoear getting so many in the early years of his stud career.

[triplev123]

They're clearly MUCH better 3yos Eliteblood. Those Pa fillies are in against some hot competition. Some very smart sires standing there.

[Greg Hando]

Mine for value to me is Lis Mara a tried and true family that has been successful here in the past

[teecee]

Sands a Flyin
I'll leave the research to you to discover y