Number of mares a stallion can serve

[peacheymagic]

When will the number of mares a stallion can be served be capped at a certain number say 200 like in the thoroughbred industry. Don't people think by having stallions serving such high numbers of broodmares we are going to ruin the harness racing industry by reducing the genetic pool, especially with the number of colonial sires currently standing in both NZ and Australia? Or are we going to rely on Northern hemisphere stallions to introduce new blood into the bred down under?

[mango]

Hi
There was a discussion about stallions about 4wks ago it's heading is Bettors delight 600 go back through there and read people posts and that will give you an idea on peoples reaction to the question you have asked.

[Thomas Johnson]

When will the number of mares a stallion can be served be capped at a certain number say 200 like in the thoroughbred industry. Don't people think by having stallions serving such high numbers of broodmares we are going to ruin the harness racing industry by reducing the genetic pool, especially with the number of colonial sires currently standing in both NZ and Australia? Or are we going to rely on Northern hemisphere stallions to introduce new blood into the bred down under?

That problem is more of a problem here in the states than it would be down under as we are jammed with the same blood. I think that it will not be long before the US breeders will be looking to New Zealand and Australia for more outcross blood. I can see that day but the breeders here will not believe it but believe me it will happen. The likes of Lombo Pocket Watch, Christian Cullen, Auckland Reactor if he gets back on track etc etc etc. There must be others there. Oh I just thought of Changeover as he is by In The Pocket, a great horse that never got a go here in the US as he was owned by George Shaw an unpopular guy here and I do not believe a horse owned by one man has much of a chance here unless a major stud gets behind him or he is syndicated.

[triplev123]

Considering both the origins & the relatively tender age of the Standardbred breed, the suggestion that anything even approaching a scientifically measurable reduction in the Standardbred gene pool is occurring carries about as much weight as Al Gore's now rather infamous Global Warming routine.
Both are thinly veiled ‘scare campaigns’ that have rather sadly been allowed to flourish as a result of entire generations that apparently failed to pay attention during High School Biology, Chemistry and Geography classes.
The domestic Horse has 64 Haploid (individual) or otherwise 32 Diploid (pairs) Chromosomes.
Upon those 64 individual or 32 pairs of Chromosomes some 20,000 individual genes & approximately 3 billion DNA bases are to be found.
Individual DNA markers located on just one of those 64 Chromosome number as high as 10,000.
Further to this, across individual breeds researchers have identified more than 940,000 DNA sequence variations, referred to as SNP's (Single-nucleotide polymorphisms).
Now add the seemingly endless combinations of the above to the fact the Standardbred breed traces to a very wide variety of sources including but not limited to Thoroughbreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabs and Norfolk Trotters and that the Standardbred Stud Book was first formed in the USA in 1879, a mere 131 years ago.

Ken Jackson and that hired gun Geneticist guy tried on a similarly thick on emotive and rhetoric but thin on science kind of 'the sky is falling, the gene pool is shrinking' routine to build a case for Christian Cullen when he went North to stand at Kentuckiana. It didn’t cope particularly well with close scrutiny back then either.
Maybe this thread popping up again is the heads up that Dobby’s going to send the great horse back to the US for another whirl?

Hey Thomas, you’re not really Ken getting on here and pretending to be someone else are you? :-P

[peacheymagic]

Why not have a limit on a number of mares a stallion can serve though, by doing this we won't end up with a narrow gene pool later down the track? Although "no scientifically measurable reduction in the standardbred gene pool" may be occurring that is not to say that more horses are not sharing more of the same genes hence reducing the genetic variability amongst the bred. With more horses sharing more of the same genes the variability within a population is reduced. Furthermore once rare genes are gone from a population (selected against- ie. horses with traits caused by these genes are not bred from) genetic diversity relies on mutations to introduce new genes into a population. As for Christian Cullen not being well received in the US I believe that is due to the perception that harness racing down under is inferior to that of the US, breeders see that Christian Cullen has not run under 1.50 so don't want to bred to him as he must be rubbish when horses in the US are running 1.48.

[justdoit]

A Breeding Panel that has been set up by Australian Harness Racing is looking into "leveling the playing field" is this refering to the numbers being breed? I get the feeling that they will recommend the possibilty of an introduction of limited services in the future..hahahaha

[triplev123]

Well, it follows that if overall improvements in the speed marks, physical refinement, racing soundness & so on in the Standardbred breed had begun to slowly plateau or if it had gone as far as having pretty much ceased all-together, as is the case now with Thoroughbreds, or perish the thought...if genuine evidence of regression began to appear, then the 'shrinking gene pool' argument...aka the let's restrict stallion books routine...would have legs upon which to stand.
To my knowledge, this is not yet the case. I am yet to see so much as a single peer reviewed, scientific study which suggests that this or anything even remotely resembling it... is actually occurring. In fact, rather than the breed genetically stalling or regressing, I believe we are fortunate enough to find ourselves with a front row seat and so a close-up view of the next great leap forward in the evolution of the Standardbred, the two stallions most likely to be responsible for it for mine being Somebeachsomewhere and Muscle Hill. I think we should embrace these great horses and those like them by trying to get as much of their genetics into the breed as is physically possible rather than continually seeking out ways in which to restrict their influence and so further the influence on the breed of a series of lesser lights.

As an aside, but along that general line...isn't a significant amount of genetic diversity within a given population the very thing that livestock breeders in general and throughout the world are forever trying to avoid by way of actively & continually weeding out sub-par or unsuitable genes in favour of the superior, suitable genes?

[peacheymagic]

You are 100% right in that these two horse are likely to have a large influence on the standardbred but if we breed say 500 mares a year to these stallions in 10 generations time (approximately 50 years) presuming great sons of these horses also serve 500 mares a year what situation will the industry be in. Once we see a plateau in race times it is too late to act and restrict stallion books we need to think for the future now.As for speed marks I think technological advances in race sulkys and smaller tracks make it difficult to say that the times horses are running now are not being masked by these advances. I sure believe on a track like Menangle with an american style sulky Christian Cullen would be able to run 1.50 but he only ran 1.54 so does this mean our current top liners like Monkey King are superior? I know in NZ it is great to be able to target the type of horse you bred by having a large number of stallions with different characteristics to bred from. Breeders have the ability to try and breed a nz cup (2 mile) horse or a age group star by selecting a stallion and broodmare with certain characteristics.

[justdoit]

The USTA rules are:-

Beginning with the 2009 breeding season, the total mares bred to a stallion standing in the United States that has never bred a mare or had a list of
mares bred filed previously shall not exceed the following:
Breeding Season: 2009 2010 2011 and thereafter
Trotting Stallions: 140 140 140
Pacing Stallions: 160 150 140
These limits on total mares bred may only be exceeded in the event of death of a mare which has been bred in which case a new mare may be added to the mares bred list and bred to the stallion.
Thomas Johnson the trotters more than the pacers have that slight problem, Super Bowl and Speedy Crown. The Aussies are still 5 years behind
NA, they will catch up and will be using the same sulkies on the same tracks and getting the times(Peacheymagic you are correct). Then the stallions will travel with some chance of getting good books of mares.

[peacheymagic]

That is good to know im sure NZ and Australia will follow suit the question is when. Maybe this ruling will mean more american stallions will stand in nz and aus as they can serve unlimited books of mares.

[justdoit]

The shuttle horses were coming out of Canadian stud farms and slowly the number from the states has increased, just happens it has taken place
along with the rise of the Aussie Dollar$$$$$ and the introduction of the limited service books.

Six years or so the limiting of their service numbers started at 210 for pacers and 180 for trotters? this I read somewhere.

[triplev123]

G'day all. To clarify the above, I’m having a fair jab at Thomas there but obviously he’s not Ken Jackson. However it does remain my contention that this 'gene pool is shrinking' routine largely began to get air-play in the lead up to then reached a crescendo upon the arrival of Christian Cullen at Kentuckiana. Further to this I believe it was irresponsible as it was used a marketing angle, one that was co-opted for stallion promotional purposes and it served to put an unfounded scare into breeders who invariably seek to do the right thing by their mares and the breed as a whole. Perhaps Noel & Dobby pulled a kind of ‘National Broadband Network’ thing, like that dreamt up on a short flight between Canberra and Sydney by Oz’s former PM Kevin Rudd & Sen. Stephen Conroy? Maybe little or no more thought went into it than that? Who knows? Whatever it was, in my opinion breeders and the breed were done a significant disservice greatest at the time. The absence of contrary thoughts being aired anywhere else saw an idea with no real scientific basis nevertheless grow wings & fly in the wider consciousness....instead of it being clubbed into submission ‘juvenile Mutton Bird’ or ‘baby Harp Seal’ fashion (apologies for the gruesome imagery there). Maybe it was simply that both back then and apparently right through up until today, some people either forgot or were just not old enough to remember back to the very same Chicken Little 'the Sky is falling' routine being pulled by those who was said the breed had been irreparably saturated with Meadow Skipper influence? History has shown those fears to have been completely unfounded then, just as the regurgitated and rebadged version thereof is today.
Whilst on the subject of History, it is of course the greatest of all predictors of the future. The fact is that the breed always finds an out. That is the basic nature of Nature, it is the basic nature of Genes. It is the basic nature of Life itself. Given even only half of half of half of an opportunity it will always find a way to continue. As I said above, we’re now blessed to have front row seats to what promises to be one of the greatest shows of our generation. We might well see a couple of trans-generational horses that took things to a whole new level on the racetrack go on to take things to a whole new level in the breeding barn. Now wouldn't that be something?

[justdoit]

I still think the limit should be at least 200, to level the playing field.

[jammsb]

I think that free enterprise should rule. Let every cat take care of its own mouse.

[justdoit]

Pussy do what?

[triplev123]

That is good to know im sure NZ and Australia will follow suit the question is when. Maybe this ruling will mean more american stallions will stand in nz and aus as they can serve unlimited books of mares.

G'day Peachey,

Australia and NZ will not follow suit, not in a million years, and here's why.

In citing the regulations in the US/CAN as support for their cause, many people in this part of the World are overlooking the SOLE ECONOMIC REASON why there is support for restricted books in the USA/CAN. Up there the sole focus of the major studs/breeding farms/breeders is selling Yearlings in order to make their $.

On the other hand, down here the major focus of the Studs, both major and otherwise, is to sell semen/services in order to make their $.

There is a VAST difference in the respective economic factors that drive and directly influence the financial viability of each approach.

Introducing to the Southern Hemisphere, for the most part no doubt hand on heart altruistic motives, that which is in place in the US/CAN for wholly, solely, totally Economics driven control the supply chain to match the demand motives...simply will not work within the current structure/financial framework of the Australian and NZ Breeding Industries. In fact it would serve to kill off the shuttle importations of the top echelon of sires virtually overnight. Restriction Of Trade legislation here in Australia would knock any such move over in a heartbeat...but even if that legislation were not in place, would you honestly risk a return to the not so distant (for me at least) bad old days of half baked never were's, glorified ex claimers & the tried and failed ?

[justdoit]

The AU dollar being where it is makes it attractive for both parties, I will look up some numbers that stallions breed. The top ten sires from last year.
TripleV123 has the AI in thoroughbreds court case finished, was it based on Restriction Of Trade?

[triplev123]

Not sure about the TB's AI case justdoit. As an aside, Gerry Harvey is one of its biggest supporters I believe.
Gerry is of course blessed with enormous ability and common sense, unlike the anti AI argument spouted by the likes of John Messara & Co. One only has to review Messara's comments during the early days of the EI outbreak here in Oz to realise, and if the truth be known initially much to my horror, that the Emperor has no clothes...but I digress.
The only exception where Oz Restriction Of Trade legislation does not apply is a situation that is arrived at where an Industry unanimously agrees to voluntarily restrict whatever the subject product or service happens to be. Though they could of course 'self limit' individual high profile/high demand sires should the economics allow it or more likely the fertility of a popular horse dictate it...but there is no way known the big Southern Hemisphere Studs ever go for it as a broad brush Industry rule/regulation.

[mango]

Hi Triplev123
Its going away from the topic for a second but i thought if anyone would know you would is Rocknroll Hanover standing at Nevele r stud next year.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

No definitive yes or no here, sorry. Haven't heard a peep. It would make a great deal of sense however.
Perretti & Nevele R are pretty tight, have been for quite a while (Falcon Seelster, McArdle & so on + some Trotters too I think? ) and that shit-bag Gov. Christie & the rest of the AC Lickspittles & Lap-dogs in his administration are Hell bent on scuttling racing in NJ, the same State where RnR Hanover stands.
Add to that the fact his son Rock N Roll Heaven has now gone straight to NY State after initially looking like he was going to Perretti in NJ & the money-for-jam extra income from shuttling any profile sire down here to stand in the NA off-season... and I think we have 9/10ths of the puzzle completed.

The general tip I got was that the Oz/NZ Sires Roster for the 2011/2012 Season will be all but indistinguishable from the current season's USTA Sires Roster so that gives you some idea of the number of sires being considered for shuttle duty. Save physical infirmity or fertility issues, looks like it will be on for young and old.

The Oz $ running at parity +++ against the USD is doing the possibility of that happening no end of financial good as well. Several pundits are actually tipping 1.10+ & pretty soon too.
That makes sense to me also because while ever the economic policies of old mate Obama and that stunningly incompetent Trickle-down Clown come Goldman Sachs beholding Glove Puppet in Ben Bernanke...cause the US Fed to keep on printing money...money that's notably backed by nothing save IOU's to the Chinese....then the OZ $ will stay as solid++++ as Granite.

Sadly we can't escape the machinations of the folding stuff, not even for a minute and even when breeding our beloved horses. :-(

[Mark Croatto]

G'day Big Fella

I've missed your insights :-)

Regards

Mark

[triplev123]

G'day Mark,

:-))))))))))) Insights or incites ? ;-P
I trust all is well in your neck of the woods.
Are you coming to the Sydney APG?

[Flashing Red]

The USTA rules are:-

Beginning with the 2009 breeding season, the total mares bred to a stallion standing in the United States that has never bred a mare or had a list of
mares bred filed previously shall not exceed the following:
Breeding Season: 2009 2010 2011 and thereafter
Trotting Stallions: 140 140 140
Pacing Stallions: 160 150 140
These limits on total mares bred may only be exceeded in the event of death of a mare which has been bred in which case a new mare may be added to the mares bred list and bred to the stallion.
Thomas Johnson the trotters more than the pacers have that slight problem, Super Bowl and Speedy Crown. The Aussies are still 5 years behind
NA, they will catch up and will be using the same sulkies on the same tracks and getting the times(Peacheymagic you are correct). Then the stallions will travel with some chance of getting good books of mares.

It will be good to see caps that's for sure.

[Flashing Red]

Hi Triplev123
Its going away from the topic for a second but i thought if anyone would know you would is Rocknroll Hanover standing at Nevele r stud next year.

I heard the Rocknroll rumour too. He would get the best book of mares assembled here if he came. I hope he does, I have already been trying to match him to certain mares. So excited! :)

Thanks for the updates Triple V

[triplev123]

No worries Flashing, one of my brief moments of clarity. :-P You are welcome.

[justdoit]

From the Sydney Morning Herald.
The busiest stallion was dual Derby-winning Coolmore shuttler & 6-time Gr1 victor High Chaparral (Sadler's Wells-Kasora, by Darshaan) standing his 1st season in Australia having been transferred from New Zealand, where he began his southern hemisphere duties in 2005; High Chaparral stood at $88,000 & served 234 mares.

What's the highest number of mares breed by natural service in one season?

[buster]

throughbreds use ai, they just use it on farm... ring up your local vet supplies wholesaler and ask who their biggest customers are

i think a stallion cap would never happen as studs and stallion owners would challenge it as a restraint of trade as it has no basis as an anti trust law imo

[triplev123]

Testify Brother Buster!
About an hour ago I wrote a sermon that quickly became a diatribe to exactly those ends...but somehow I hit the wrong button and it disappeared and I was so ticked off at that I couldn't be bothered doing it all over again. Probably just as well as some of things I stated about those who perpetuate the myth that TB sires hit all those mares on a natural cover basis, whilst accurate, weren't particularly pleasant.
In addition to the TB's using AI on-farm, I am certain they also use a form of semen transport both on farm & to other farms under theirs and the control of others that are in the immediate vicinity...both of which they will of course flat out deny but I'm certain that a little investigative journalist come hidden camera work in the Hunter Valley would yield some startling results.
What shits me off about the TB Studs more than anything is that their leading Breeding Industry figures will publically deride the use of AI in the Standardbred Industry as being some kind of abomination and they will look down their noses at us for availing ourselves of any and all reasonable assisted breeding technologies...when the fact is they know full what goes on behind closed breeding shed doors at TB Studs across the country and throughout the world for that matter. Their abject hypocrisy seemingly knows no boundaries.

[Don Corleone]

Hear hear triplev123 !! Totally agree. You only have ask any number of ex employees of various TB stud farms and they will tell you.

[triplev123]

Enjoy these rare moments of clarity while they last Don Corleone. ;)

[justdoit]

I do not feel that the big thoroughbred farms would risk using AI anymore, they have to much at stake.
As for the purchase of insemination glove, pipets, lube, the odd artificial vagina why wouldn't they need
these things. They will even have a microscope to look at each ejaculate(just a little bit).
Not to use these products and others avaliable would be extremely bad management.
The salesman that tells everyone in the world his big news story should be happy that he is not driving around the countryside delivering lube to Dairy farms:/

The pre and post breeding treatment of a thoroughbred mare is more intensive/expensive due to the requirements from the stallion managers and Vet'$.
The pre and post breeding treatment of a standardbred mare is more unintensive/inexpensive due to the requirements from the stallion managers and Vet'$. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JSBhI_0at0

[triplev123]

You're begining to sound a lot like John Messara.
If you come out and suggest that an E.I outbreak will be confined to Show Horses and Pony Clubbers and that it will not infect Thoroughbreds...or if you state that by starting the breeding season 1 month later the TB Breeding Industry risks producing an entire generation of small, under developed yearlings and racehorses...then your cover will be blown wide open. So c'mon now, level with me. Is that you...John? :p

[Don Corleone]

I have a way of "making them a offer they can't refuse" !!!!LOL

[buster]

i'm sure they just use the semen extender for keeping their fridges cool

more likely is that the TB guys dont want to risk a stallion slipping or getting an infection from a mare and being unable to fully serve his entire book, im sure they dont have any low sperm count stallions either...they would be losing 2-10 mill if that happened

[triplev123]

Nah, unfortunately the rub's infinitely more basic than that Buster.
The fact is that those big TB breeding farms are as irretrievably addicted to the cash-flow that the on-farm partial or year round boarding, breeding and associated activities bring them as a veteran Crack Whore is to her chosen substance of abuse. If AI & Semen Transport were allowed then a very large part of their incomes would be slashed away overnight, never to return.

[justdoit]

Hi Triple V123,
No Messara in this house and did you have to mention veteran crack whore's:)

Hi Buster,
Google - semen extender uses. I don't feel like typing.

[buster]

my comment was a joke..not literally...

there is far too much money at stake for studs to ever lose services, how could they ever afford to even get stallions like rock n roll heaven, art major, bettors delight down here if you are cutting their revenue in half, it would set the standard of stallions back 10 years

[justdoit]

Hi TripleV123,
I disagree, the income from what is basically just an agistment farm has very little if anything to do with their position on AI.
If anyone thinks that the way to get rich is by having only an agistment farm or even a big agistment farm they would be very mistaken:) they are protecting the service fee$ and the yearling sale$.

Hi Buster, The big worry is if the number of horses avaliable to race decreases and there are less races, which would equal less money. The chance of anyone in any position of authority pushing for limiting breeding books is very SLIM.
B-Panel team sorry guys:) I'm off for a run and a swim to try and get rid of a massive caffeine overload..ARGHHHHHHH