Grand Circuit

[Phoenix]

Last Sunday's Tasmania Cup got me thinking that even though right now we have a great batch of top liners, the Grand Circuit isn't totally swamped by them.

I bet the SA Cup in two weekend's time only has one or two real top liners..

[nat]

You will have Lance Justice and Geoff Webster there with their guns winning the S.A. Cup means more to them than the money.

[aussiebreno]

Last Sunday's Tasmania Cup got me thinking that even though right now we have a great batch of top liners, the Grand Circuit isn't totally swamped by them.

I bet the SA Cup in two weekend's time only has one or two real top liners..
Have to disagree. Last 5 years its been BAF, while he had BGJ, Safari, Divisive, Melpark Major, Smoken Up, MrFeelgood all at different stages play a distant 2nd fiddle to him. Now its very very even. Mr Feelgood, Smoken Up, BAF, Monkey King, Villagem, IMTQ, Melpark Major and maybe a few others can all win convincingly with the right run.

[peacheymagic]

It is fair to say the grand circuit is currently being dominated by a number of older horses in BAF, Monkey King, Smoken Up and Mr Feelgood but I think 2011 could see a number of young guns like Villagem, Stunnin Cullen and Sleepy Tripp win some major races. Not to mention the great crop of 4yo's coming up behind them like Lanercost, Smiling Shard, Franco Emirate, Franco Jamar, Sir Lincoln, De Lovely and others so I think the future is bright.

[Phoenix]

Have to disagree. Last 5 years its been BAF, while he had BGJ, Safari, Divisive, Melpark Major, Smoken Up, MrFeelgood all at different stages play a distant 2nd fiddle to him. Now its very very even. Mr Feelgood, Smoken Up, BAF, Monkey King, Villagem, IMTQ, Melpark Major and maybe a few others can all win convincingly with the right run.

Sorry aussie, I did say 'totally swamped'.. in other words (and I should have clarified it) each Grand Circuit event isn't being swamped by the top liners.

You can't tell me that last Sunday's Tas Cup field was a Grand Circuit field... and there were only two highly rated horses but they ain't top liners yet.

Whereas the Victoria Cup was a dead set Grand Circuit event in every sense of the word.

[aussiebreno]

Sorry aussie, I did say 'totally swamped'.. in other words (and I should have clarified it) each Grand Circuit event isn't being swamped by the top liners.

You can't tell me that last Sunday's Tas Cup field was a Grand Circuit field... and there were only two highly rated horses but they ain't top liners yet.

Whereas the Victoria Cup was a dead set Grand Circuit event in every sense of the word.
Yeah, you called the Grand Circuit not totally swamped - not the Tas Cup. It goes without saying its (the GC) NEVER going to be totally swamped, there is always going to be a handful better than the rest. If you expect it to be totally swamped well thats strange. And did you just realise Tas Cup, SA Cup among other races eg Aus Derby aren't really worthy of their status? Please tell me you didnt just realise this.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, you called the Grand Circuit not totally swamped - not the Tas Cup. It goes without saying its (the GC) NEVER going to be totally swamped, there is always going to be a handful better than the rest. If you expect it to be totally swamped well thats strange. And did you just realise Tas Cup, SA Cup among other races eg Aus Derby aren't really worthy of their status? Please tell me you didnt just realise this.

No, didn't just realise it... I made a comment in another post somewhere on this forum that the Treuer Memorial and similar races like the SA Cup and Tas Cup shouldn't be part of the Grand Circuit.

But then again... go back into the record books and look what Golden Reign did in the 1994/95 GC .

[Phoenix]

He won the Tas P.C, SA Cup, Victoria Cup, Treuer, two interdom heats and the final. When was the last time a horse went to Hobart, Adelaide, Bankstown and won them all as well as win the Vic Cup (for me, this is the best of the grand circuit events) and place in the miracle mile and the hunter cup? This is my point. Back then the difference in prizemoney between Tasmania/S.A/Treuer wasn't as great as it is now (in fact, the prizemoney has fallen for some of those events eg: Treuer).

If the 'lesser clubs' put in a bit more money into their 'grand circuit' events then we'll see more top liners have a go at the better prizemoney... and if people in Tasmania know that, say, Mr Feelgood or Blacks A Fake are gonna be in town, then they'll have extra exposure as well as more $$ turnover and more patronage.

Eg: In 1994 the Treuer prizemoney was $160,000 whereas in 2010 it was only $100,000. In 1994 the Victoria Cup prizemoney was $200,000 whereas in 2010 it was $425,000 - and that, combined with the respective fields in the Treuer, says it all, and perfectly illustrates my point.

[nat]

I don't know but I think all states should have a showcase race to cut them out because they are low in cash doesn't do the industry any good. If we loose interest in getting better class horses to an event then the interest in the sport dwindles in that state and we all loose in the end. I know they are our show case events and we'd all like to see the prize money well above the $100,000 mark but in reality it wont happen in all cases there should be some prestige that go's along with the race not just a cash grab if this was the case someone like Clive Palmer could sponsor a $150,000 FFA at Marburg and it would get Group 1 status. I think the poor turnout to some of these events can most of the time be bought down to the Grand Circuit calendar no planning just look at November and December Miracle Mile & its lead up, Treuer Memorial, Cranbourne cup and Victoria Cup some of the horses were up for 6 weeks of hard racing with out a let up so what do you think they do they give their horses a break we wont bother traveling to Tassie or S.A. cause we will be setting up for the Hunter Cup. Some of S.A. feature races have more history and prestige than a lot of other races do in Australia should this be lost because they are struggling financially?

[Phoenix]

Nat I understand your points but the reality is that the history and prestige of a race isn't pulling the grand circuit top liners to come to town. The gaps in prizemoney between the glamour grand circuit events and the lesser events is causing the good horses to miss the lesser ones in order to freshen up or be targetted for the bigger $$.

Maybe one idea is for the grand circuit to be split into two blocks so that there is a gap of say 5-6 weeks in between so runners can get a break.. but for me personally, I like the current format and still maintain that if the prizemoney was better then the clubs would get a better return as they see the likes of Blackie and Mr Feelgood come to town.

If Clive Palmer came along and wanted to put on a $150,000 FFA event at Marburg then why not give it Grand Circuit status... if it were to stay and not vanish as soon as Clive got tired of it. They could have the race a week before the Qld P.C so that owners/trainers who wouldn't normally take their grand circuit stars to Brisbane would think twice as they could make one trip up for two races totalling $350k.

If the Treuer Memorial wasn't held a week after the Miracle Mile then you would not see the Washakies and BAF's like we did in 2010 (I keep thinking it's this year, but it's last year)...

Finally, I hope Lance kills the SA Cup and Smoken Up wins it especially after what happened to him last year...

[aussiebreno]

Glad it didnt take the Tas Cup to wake you up to the fact. Agree with all the other stuff you posted.

When judging the (aust) Grand Circuit horses I look at 4 races.
Inter
Miracle Mile
Vic Cup
Hunter Cup

[Phoenix]

When judging the (aust) Grand Circuit horses I look at 4 races.
Inter
Miracle Mile
Vic Cup
Hunter Cup

Yep, agree mostly but the Hunter Cup isn't quite the same these days purely because of the reluctance of trainers/owners to start off 20 or 30 metre handicaps. In days gone by you would see Blossom Lady, Golden Reign, Sinbad Bay etc start off big handicaps and still be very competitive...

Imagine this year's Hunter Cup with BAF (if he were to go down to Melb) off 30m, Mr Feelgood off 30m, Smoken Up off 30m .. and throw in Melpark Major, Villagem, some kiwi horses.. now that would be a Hunter Cup and a half.

[Phoenix]

We have heats and eliminations for some races the main big race is the Inter but non of these are run on the same day nearly always a week apart. For some of the bigger group 1 races we race for ballot exemptions as in the Cranbourne Cup the winner will be exempt from ballot into the $425,000 Victoria Cup this encourages trainers to take their guns to the country cup mettings here in Victoria

If some trainers had this attitude when contemplating whether to take their charges to 'lesser' grand circuit races then this could boost the quality of races like the Tas Cup and the SA Cup.

[Phoenix]

Finally, I hope Lance kills the SA Cup and Smoken Up wins it especially after what happened to him last year...

Lance gets his chance to exact revenge on Mister Zion. I can't see Smoken Up being trapped three wide like last year. Surely he'll end up in the death or even lead.. a driver would be mad trying to outstay him by keeping him out.

[Flashing Red]

It is fair to say the grand circuit is currently being dominated by a number of older horses in BAF, Monkey King, Smoken Up and Mr Feelgood but I think 2011 could see a number of young guns like Villagem, Stunnin Cullen and Sleepy Tripp win some major races. Not to mention the great crop of 4yo's coming up behind them like Lanercost, Smiling Shard, Franco Emirate, Franco Jamar, Sir Lincoln, De Lovely and others so I think the future is bright.

I agree - all our Grand Circuit stars are all aged and many will not be around in the next season or two. The (current) crop of 4yos (last year's 3yos) were outstanding. They are the stars of the future IMHO...