Stallion flops

[peacheymagic]

Year after year new stallions arrive on the scene and are vigorously promoted by the studs standing them as the next "big" thing, however many fail miserably. So what commercial sire (served over 200 mares) do people regard as the biggest failure or dissapointment, a stallion which they believed had the goods and came up empty. For mine Make A Deal was a massive failure leaving 293 live foals in NZ for only one horse which has won over $100,000 in Myron $127,000.

[justdoit]

Red River Hanover, Astreos and Real Desire he has me worried.
It is going to happen that sires fail, I bred to the 3 mentioned.
s__t happens:)
Another train wreck Blissfull Hall, all these sires would win the best looking
yearlings at the sale and not much else. JMO

[mightymo]

Red River Hanover, Astreos and Real Desire he has me worried.
It is going to happen that sires fail, I bred to the 3 mentioned.
s__t happens:)
Another train wreck Blissfull Hall, all these sires would win the best looking
yearlings at the sale and not much else. JMO

It is definitely too early to pass judgement on Real Desire, although I agree with the rest.

I was only looking at Blissfull Hall's stats the other day as he has 5 yearlings in the premium sale.

With his oldest foals now 4, he only has 3 that have won over 100K and only 5 have won over 50k and that is from 296 foals that are 3 and older. A very poor result indeed to date

[justdoit]

Mightymo this could be the start of another thread. What is more important.
The mare or the sire? obviously the Blissfull Halls in the premium sale are out of
mares that have produced something..somethink.
Just looked at them, some awesome and acouple should not be there.
lot 84 I like the best of them.

[triplev123]

Of those sires we've bred to and had expected a great deal from only to have them come up short not only with the one/s we produced but come up short right across the board Astreos was the greatest disappointment for me, and thankfully he was the only one. I thought he'd do a whole lot more than he did. He got sufficient broodmare support to do a job and then some, but no. We bred his fastest horse in Oz (by a full second) but that was a mark of what a good producing mare his dam is that he has been able to do what he has done. She covered the sire's arse. The biggest problem I observed with the progeny of Astreos was they tended to be slow maturing and if they got to the races (usually late 3yos+++) they were still only one paced/verging on plugger types. Oztreos was easily his best one here in Oz. I think he was the 'one good horse' Astreos had coming. Had he not gotten so desperately ill, in fact he hovered on the verge of dying, I've no doubt he'd have made Cups/ID Class. He owes his life to Jon Kingston-Mayne. It was a mark of how well Jon looked after him & how tough he was that he made it back to the races & won a few but the horse was never the same.

[justdoit]

triplev123 so the mares make the stallion?haha sorry

[Neil]

we have been sort of having this conversation earlier but what about a good mare leaving a top mare and then her leaving almost nothing herself - can a filly from that last generation throw back to the good ones?? - Its what I'm trying - guess we know soon enough - the oldest is 2

[Don Corleone]

I once tired what a old horseman told me in that "bred to the weakest branch of a good family and it will come strong again." I did and it didn't work! Perhaps my choice of staliion was wrong?
Neil - I have done what you are doing and YES it was sucessful, so good luck mate.

[triplev123]

Nah, overall I don't think there's any hard & fast rule. It ebbs and flows depending on the circumstances at the time.
A band of really good producing mares can make a sire of otherwise moderate ability look a fair bit better than he really is but when it comes to a really bad sire, they cannot be overcome by any amount of producing broodmare power being thrown at them. Really bad sires will stop good broodmares like they've been shot.
On the other side, really outstanding sires will step up even the most humble band of mares. Strangely enough though, when a really good / great sire emerges from a moderate band of mares beginning & their abilities become widely acknowledged and supported by the commerical breeders, they (the outstanding sires) don't go on to become exponentially better sires again because of that better mare quality. I think this is simply because they were already getting it done, regardless.

[triplev123]

I don't think you can rehab. a truly dead or dying branch of any maternal family but it's vital to know the circumstances surrounding them. In some cases some branches of a successful family may well appear to be dying or they may appear to have died...but in reality it has been illness or injury or poor nutritional care to successive members which has curtailed things. When a few lucky members finally make it through to the track sans being starved or struck by lightning or running into a fence or contracting colitus-x or whatever, the seemingly dead branch appears to have 'sprung back to life' when it was never really dead to begin with. Some do just inexplicably die in the arse however. For example, there's a branch of the great Black Watch family here in Oz that couldn't produce a winner in a one horse race.

[Flashing Red]

I don't think you can rehab. a truly dead or dying branch of any maternal family but it's vital to know the circumstances surrounding them. In some cases some branches of a successful family may well appear to be dying or they may appear to have died...but in reality it has been illness or injury or poor nutritional care to successive members which has curtailed things. When a few lucky members finally make it through to the track sans being starved or struck by lightning or running into a fence or contracting colitus-x or whatever, the seemingly dead branch appears to have 'sprung back to life' when it was never really dead to begin with. Some do just inexplicably die in the arse however. For example, there's a branch of the great Black Watch family here in Oz that couldn't produce a winner in a one horse race.

A little bit off track, but I remember in 1999 two G1 winning thoroughbred horses, Dignity Dancer and Miss Bailey (Miss Bailey won a G1 NZ 3200m race, Dignity Dancer a G1 over 1600m in Australia I think) came out of the same family that hadn't produced any winners in 6 or so generations. Obviously I read this 12 odd years ago but it struck me how a family that was no good for SO many generations produced 2 G1 winners in a season. lol.

[Flashing Red]

For the exceptional horse that he was, IMHO Elsu has not sired anything remotely compared to him to date, and he got some very nice mares in his first few seasons... suppose there is still time. Courage Under Fire didn't "fire" in his first few seasons, but last season's 3yo Courage Under Fires were outstanding and while it took him a while he is on his way!

[trotpace]

Red River Hanover
Revenue

[k8burger]

I really like that horse. He is so handsome and I saw him win the Nat Ray (and got a pretty good payout on him that day too!) and really hoped he'd pan out as a stallion.

In actuality, as expected, they seem to be getting better with age. Hot Shot Blue Chip might be a force as an aged horse and Break the Bank K isn't anything to scoff at either. I think he had one or two good fillies competing at Pocono/Harrahs as well this year.

Did he go back to Sweden?

[trotpace]

2011 will be his last in the USA.

The US blood line really needs a boost, hopefully a good amount of Revenue mares will get bred to help the gene pool.

Break the Bank K is his best, maybe someday he will be in the breeding shed and have some better babies.

[trotpace]

http://trackit.standardbredcanada.ca/?op=QRAP&id=544732

[k8burger]

2011 will be his last in the USA.

The US blood line really needs a boost, hopefully a good amount of Revenue mares will get bred to help the gene pool.

Break the Bank K is his best, maybe someday he will be in the breeding shed and have some better babies.


Revenue is still in the US?? Where is he standing?

[justdoit]

Life Sign left his best in NA, he breed big numbers for little result IMO. Breeding from his mares? will wait and see.

[trotpace]

my mistake,

Revenue S stands his final season in 2010 as he will return to Sweden for the 2011 breeding season.

[triplev123]

The flops that really fascinate me are the 'half flops' for want of a better description, the ones that in explicably come up short in one hemisphere despite having been successful in the other.
Then there are those sires/sirelines that fire in NZ with their mare base but that can't get a winner to save themselves when bred to AUS maternal lines...and with the same applying to some sires/sirelines that fire here in AUS with our maternal lines but can't get hot in NZ when bred to theirs.