"American Style" speed sulkies

[NormanS]

I read here http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=17844 that another Sulky , this one "The Razor Sulky" has been approved. There are now quite a few different types of US style sulkies going round the tracks.
Lets face it, every horse in the ID final was in one of these style of sulkies. I still have my regal offset. How does this compare? Does anyone have any opinions or experience with any of them? How they differ in racing performance. Which would be better for Heavier / lighter drivers. Would you use the same at Menangle and Newcastle. How about around a Half Mile track like Penrith or Bathurst?

Advantage Sulky - has a facebook page and website under construction
Spyder Sulky - Luke M's design
The Razor
The Tsunami Sulky / Tsunami Stinger
Aussie Eclipse
Challenger Force
Tom Harmers Evolution Sulky

If there are more, be kind and list them and your experience with them. And thanks to everyone who chooses to post.

I would like to ask the same question about the wheels. There are that many of them out there now. How they effect rolling efficiency etc. Are the carbon fibre spokes better that the aluminium billets cut spokes etc

To the mods, if i've posted this in the wrong area appologies and i'll understnd if it gets moved to another location

[Greg Hando]

No answer's Norman i to was interested in comparison's between the new sulky's and tyres.

[Triple V]

My experience with various race bikes is that they ALL work exceptionally well when something smart is hitched between the shafts.

[NormanS]

My experience with various race bikes is that they ALL work exceptionally well when something smart is hitched between the shafts.

Thats a cool answer, and i am working on that part as well (so far without great deal of success).

But The question is with so many variations of the same thing out there how do you find out which is going to give you the best advantage (if even the slow ones can be improved a touch). And if im racing mostly away from Menangle, is there any advantage?

I like my offset. Its a very comfortable seat. And as im about 20kg heavier than my regular driver knowing how weight affects the drive is important as well (imo)

[Danno]

Thats a cool answer, and i am working on that part as well (so far without great deal of success).

But The question is with so many variations of the same thing out there how do you find out which is going to give you the best advantage (if even the slow ones can be improved a touch). And if im racing mostly away from Menangle, is there any advantage?

I like my offset. Its a very comfortable seat. And as im about 20kg heavier than my regular driver knowing how weight affects the drive is important as well (imo)

G'day Norm,
my personal opinion ( which is NOT based on science) is that each and every horse has it's own optimum "balance" requirements in the sulky area and these can change from racing surface to other track characteristics such as the radius of turns, shape of turns, length of straights, the person sitting in the bike, etc.

as stated, not science, but I have seen many horses display an ability to ignore science.
Cheers,
Dan

[Triple V]

I'd agree with that. Horses for courses, bikes for tracks.
Shoeing is the same.
So many different track surfaces here in Oz...same set of shoes every time.

[strong persuader]

Perhaps others had noticed the following item, http://www.austrotforum.com/weblog/archives/2011/11/jim_walsh_draws_attention_to_a.html

It references Terror To Loves efforts in a sulky design of 70+ years still made the same way it was all those years ago.

As Jaimie said, the best way to get a fast sulky is to put a fast horse between the shafts!

[Triple V]

I once had the great pleasure of jogging Our Sir Vancelot in an work cart made from heavy steel pipe (a moment of madness on the part of BPH) and even when hitched like that you could still tell the horse had some really serious grunt. As I recall he was only a 3yo at the time. That was the first time that I got any sort of a handle on what a really top shelf horse felt like through the lines. I'll never forget it.

[Greg Hando]

Why can't something be done on Trots tv interview some participant's,manufacturer's etc so people might have a better idea as to which work's best for particular type's of surface's, track size , horse's etc .
This would help all participant's and punter's alike.

[Greg Hando]

Perhaps others had noticed the following item, http://www.austrotforum.com/weblog/archives/2011/11/jim_walsh_draws_attention_to_a.html

It references Terror To Loves efforts in a sulky design of 70+ years still made the same way it was all those years ago.

As Jaimie said, the best way to get a fast sulky is to put a fast horse between the shafts!

Can you still race in an all wood sulky in NZ ?

[teecee]

Absolutely.. veryone's got one. Bryant or similar
Big business in renovatin them old ones to get back on track.

[Greg Hando]

What's the reasoning teecee do they believe they are better than the newer steel gig's?

[teecee]

They apparently give one a better ride especially on grass tracks. they are not as rigid.

[Danno]

Can you still race in an all wood sulky in NZ ?

Yes greg, the Kiwis are not as easily duped as us silly bloody Aussies.

[Triple V]

Why can't something be done on Trots tv interview some participant's,manufacturer's etc so people might have a better idea as to which work's best for particular type's of surface's, track size , horse's etc .
This would help all participant's and punter's alike.

[VVV] Great idea. Calling Dale Walker...calling Dale Walker. Come in Dale.

[Don Corleone]

I have a 30 year old Rydelite and its the best thing to ride in. It gets a paint job every 2 seasons and new wheels when required. Until last season it still had the orginal mud sheet on it!!

[NormanS]

So to answer my question, While at Bathurst I asked a couple of trainers their opinions. 1 trainer had just ordered an "Advantage Sulky" as after discussions with a well respected Bathurst trainer (who has the advantage and evolution), he said that the Advantage was worth as much as 2 seconds over the mile. Another trainer has ordered the Evolution (after trying most bikes on the market) as it has the highest "lift factor" - it reduces the weight the horse is carrying the most (And he prefered the ride). And after all his training drives the evolution was the bike where his stopwatch showed a difference and he could Feel the difference.
Although I wont name them, these three trainers would all be considered top trainers.
The other things i found interesting watching the stabling and parade ring at Bathurst was how many trainers had an Advantage and an Evolution sulky And that most didnt use the carbon fibre or Aluminium billet wheels with these bikes but the spoked rims (except LMc with his spyder bike and rims). On the Bathurst track they prefered the thicker/wider tyre.

[NormanS]

An interesting side note that one of the other guys touched on earlier (now i have Austar on again) is how few horses that go around in NZ have a "speed Sulky" attached especially at Addington and Alexandria Park.

[Danno]

An interesting side note that one of the other guys touched on earlier (now i have Austar on again) is how few horses that go around in NZ have a "speed Sulky" attached especially at Addington and Alexandria Park.

I'll say it again Norm, the Kiwis are not as easily duped as us silly bloody Aussies.

Cheers,
Dan

[teecee]

So to answer my question, While at Bathurst I asked a couple of trainers their opinions. 1 trainer had just ordered an "Advantage Sulky" as after discussions with a well respected Bathurst trainer (who has the advantage and evolution), he said that the Advantage was worth as much as 2 seconds over the mile. Another trainer has ordered the Evolution (after trying most bikes on the market) as it has the highest "lift factor" - it reduces the weight the horse is carrying the most (And he prefered the ride). And after all his training drives the evolution was the bike where his stopwatch showed a difference and he could Feel the difference.
Although I wont name them, these three trainers would all be considered top trainers.
The other things i found interesting watching the stabling and parade ring at Bathurst was how many trainers had an Advantage and an Evolution sulky And that most didnt use the carbon fibre or Aluminium billet wheels with these bikes but the spoked rims (except LMc with his spyder bike and rims). On the Bathurst track they prefered the thicker/wider tyre.
I is interesting tat someone should feel that the "Lift Factor" would be a determining factor in which sulky one thinks is the best. Virtually all of the American style speed sulkies on the market are extremely heavy in comparison to their Australasian cousins. The exception is the ZEN sulky. It is exceedingly light. This is because it is made of what we make our racing bikes out of and designed by a local bike designer and manufacturer for our olympic team and America's Cup boats.
The American style sulkies are heavy to provide extra weight and thus stability for the horse to pull. Greater stability leads to greater speed. Sitting much more solidly on the track will provide that greater speed and stability. Thus greater lift factor is a weakness factor for these sulkies. Using thicker, wider tyres is a means to reduce drag on smaller tighter tracks with these sulkies but that is again working against the value of these types of sulky which rely on their weight for stability. As I said it is the stability they provide in their weight that allows the horse improved performance. (if he has improvement in him.) The other issue with the American syle sulky used in Australasia is that they are an adaptation of the shorter, wider American version adapted to Australasian regulations...Made longer in the shafts but narrower across the beam The true aerodynamic features of these carts is virtually lost in this process. I've seen a lot of American style carts getting around Oz tracks on TV where their success is limited. The reasons I believe are twofold..
1.. The inherent ability between the shafts along with that on the seat behind.
2.. The mix and match nature of the wheel / tyre combinations affixed to these sulkies. All merican style carts are sold with fitted rim and tyre combinations for a reason but so many Oz trainers seem to operate a mix and match mentality....Likely to their detriment.

[Triple V]

There have been some real hocus-pocus smoke and mirrors slight of hand put about by various race bike manufacturers as well.
One routine relates to a ceramic bearing which was said to be so smooth that once set in motion the wheel would never stop turning.
The other was said to directly have to do with the bike itself whereby it was alleged that the combination of lift & whatever that was provided by its design actually served to propell the horse forward...in effect the race bike becoming a source of energy ala the motor in a car etc.
Both claims were of course absolute bullshit of course as they both defy the basic laws of physics.