Presidential Ball as a broodmare sire/Northern Luck as a Sire info required.

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Presidential Ball as a broodmare sire/Northern Luck as a Sire info required.

Hi All.
I am a small Australian private breeder, can anyone help me with information (http://www.harnessracingforum.com/#) regarding Presidential Ball as a broodmare sire. What bloodline mares work with this sire, progeny etc.
Any data out of US breeding would be great.
Also Northern Luck a son of Camluck, what mares bloodlines as produced winning progeny in the US. Any info welcomed and any info to point me in the direction to gain info.
Look forward to responses..
Happy Breeding.
Kevin.

[Toohard]

Gday Kevin

Have you looked at the Classic Families website?

Go here www.peppertreefarm.org

Click on Breeders World up the top. Then click on Classic Families. Enter Presidential Ball in the box.
When the screen comes up click on the Classic Crosses tab. Gives you a list of all horses that have won classic races that are out of Presidential Ball mares. Shows sires, horse name, etc. Can sort the list by clicking on the column headings. Also can click on any of the underlined fields to 'dig deeper'. Its not a list of all winners just classic winners (if you click on Classic Races up the top it gives you a list of what they are).


Also if you go here www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/hraonline-rpts.htm there are all sorts of reports (including broodmare sires reports) that are now available for free. You need to register first (tells you how to do it on that page above) to get a username\password. But all free.

Cheers

[mightymo]

Hi Kevin

Pres Ball's best individual broodmare sire credit to date is Not Enough who is by Grinfromeartoear.

Overall though, PB mares have crossed well with Western Hanover and his sons. One of the better 3yos going round in the US at the moment is Simpy Business who is by Rocknroll Hanover.

He has also had good success with sons of Artsplace as well as crossing well with Mach Three and Apaches Fame.

To date PB mares have only produced 2 millionaires - one by Grin and one by Mach Three.

Regards

Harvey

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi Paul..
Thanks for reply..Yep done all that..Just wanted any extra info out of the USA, The USTA website costs for every entry you search and it's not cheap.
Checked out the NZ data base but not a great deal to go on. I know that Artsplace sires are a good cross with this sire;s bloodlines, but looking for options.
Thanks anyway...
Best Regards..
KevinD.

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hey Harvey...
Thanks for the reply.
What i am looking for is any progeny out of PB mares sired by Camluck/Big Towner bloodline sires.
The USTA site is expensive to gain info.
Once again thanks
Take Care.
KevinD

[mightymo]

In the US, PB mares have had limited success with Sportsmaster and Camotion, but nothing i would get too excited about.

i have a PB mare myself, and I am looking at Western Hanover or Artsplace lines or Mach Three/Courage Under Fire

[HISGEN65]

Thanks for posting this Kevin as I have a PB mare retiring this year.
Thanks also to the kind people who have taken the time to post their thoughts
Much appreciated

cheers:)

[Triple V]

G'day Kevin,
I had a look through his fastest/better class race winners and something interesting popped up. There are quite a few in there (including a number that have gone in 1:50 or faster and won 250k+) that are in fact linebred to Cam Fella...as in PB mares having been bred to Cam Fella line sires such as Pacific Fella, his son No Pan Intented and NPI"s half brother Bettor's Delight as well as Camotion etc. If you decided to go down that road there are any number of Cam Fella line sires available to you here in Oz, just depends on what your mare's like in relation to them and what you want to spend.

[Starship Captain]

http://www.pedigreeguru.com

Try this site, you can sign up and get 2 days free.
It will answer all your question, there will be some on this forum that use the site.

[Triple V]

Wearable Art, flashed early & brilliantly, very promising but got hurt & was never the same. Shows a lot of heart here for the length of the Big M stretch to hold off The Quiet Mon in the 2007 Berrys Creek Final. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIGLFwW8fSs&feature=relmfu

[dizzy]

Jamie with the "quite a few" better performers closely linebred to Cam Fella on the sire line what is that %age wise to number of foals bred that way as that is the telling statistic? Don't know the colt Wearable Art but will take it he was a very nice colt. For those into breeding theories his dams grand sire Cam Fella would appear to be good match for the principle of returning to the sire the best blood of his dam, but as his dam is also directly descended from the same female family (Miss Duvall, the most prolific family in modern times) as Art Major in that Rotate is a full sister to Romola Hanover (hall of fame broodmare) a son of Artsplace over this female family may also have something to do with this colts ability. Of course it could all have just been luck. For mine Kevin/James you need to delve a bit further back into the mares pedigree then just the sire to make informed decisions

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi all.
Thanks for all the replies.
Looking further into Cam Fella line breeding..check out the breeding of Cammibest..
That's what you call line breeding?
3rd generation xs to Most Happy Fella and Harold J in both sire and maternal lines.
Then check out his best progeny in Australia Pub Blitz..This season rated 1.52 and $132k to date..Even more Most Happy Fella blood??
(http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=38129) (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=597448)

[dizzy]

Kevin Cammibest is actually inbred not linebred as the duplications are in the third generation. The mantra from the TB pedigree scholars is inbreeding on the sire line is rarely successful (though they are less dogmatic about it since Northern Dancer came along) unless there is an equally strong representation of females from an unrelated line which is what Cammibest demonstrates. Pub Blitz is inbred to Tyler B through a son and daughter which is preferable to through 2 sons. Big Band Sound is a 7/8 brother to TylerB which makes Pub Blitz even more in/linebred. Fortitude Hanover has Breath of Spring in his pedigree which is Harold J full sister, something Tesio was big on, and possibly more significant then the in/line breeding to MHF

Harvey's Grinfromeartoear/Presidential Ball example "Not Enough" dam is by Presidential Ball out of the dam of Cammibest so is a actually a 3/4 relation to Cammibest as PB and Cambest are both by Cam Fella and she is inbred to MHF. "Not Enough "also has the full brother and sister Harold J and Breath of Spring 4x 4 as well as another strain of B of S. which would be the Tesio enthusiasts key to her success.

Harveys other example is "Monkey on my Wheel" by Mach Three who has demonstrated quite a lotof success with mares by sons of Cam Fella in North America and here. Mach Three may be out of your reach but he has a full brother standing in NZ Extreme Three who wasn't as good a racehorse and is still largely unproven as a sire but it's reasonable to assume would do best with the same lines that his brother has.

[Starship Captain]

Dizzy, I hope you are not recommending to breed to a full brother of a great race horse/good sire. That would be a bad call IMO.

[dizzy]

So Jason you wouldn't send a mare to Roll With Joe on the basis he is Bettors Delights full brother? It's not a recommendation by the way but an observation/consideration. Given that most stallions are deemed failures at stud its probable that brothers are not likely to be as successfull at stud as each other. Red River, Rustler and Righteous Hanover are not a patch on their 3/4 sibling Rock n Roll Hanover but then Angus, Andover and Conway Hall are all in the top 10 sires list in the US. Interestingly the top 2 sellers at the US yearling sales were the full brothers to Somebeachsomewhere and Donato Hanover for a lot of coin if you don't think they are stud prospects at least.

If you are planning matings on pedigree factors then sometimes the only way to get what you are looking for is to use a lesser brother or son of the chosen stallion. It doesn't always work out bad, Tesio wanted to send Nogara to Fairway but couldn't get a nomination so sent her to Fairway's lessor performed brother Pharos, the resulting colt being Nearco and the rest is history

[Triple V]

kevin cammibest is actually inbred not linebred as the duplications are in the third generation.

[vvv] for mine he's linebred to most happy fella and harold j, tightly/closely linebred it is true, but inbred? No.
his sire & dam are from different maternal families therefore it is impossible for him to be inbred in the true genetic sense of the term.
i've long believed it is irresponsible of the breeding industry to adopt terminology that is at odds with genetic realities because all that does is serve to further cloud an already difficult to determine picture. For starters, dna does not recognise the human imposed deliniations of 3rd and closer removes as opposed to 4th and further removes or any other such arrangement of numbers.
those aspects were instead created by humans to allow fellow humans to simplify and duly pigeon hole various aspects of breeding that have genetic truths which are much, much more involved and complicated.

the mantra from the tb pedigree scholars is inbreeding on the sire line is rarely successful (though they are less dogmatic about it since northern dancer came along)
[vvv] they've had their individual and collective heads shoved up their arses for years. The overwhelming success of linebreeding to meadow skipper alone puts paid to those who subscribe to that theory.

unless there is an equally strong representation of females from an unrelated line which is what cammibest demonstrates.
[vvv]...a fact which puts paid to him being inbred in the true genetic sense of the term.

pub blitz is inbred to tyler b through a son and daughter which is preferable to through 2 sons. Big band sound is a 7/8 brother to tylerb which makes pub blitz even more in/linebred. Fortitude hanover has breath of spring in his pedigree which is harold j full sister, something tesio was big on, and possibly more significant then the in/line breeding to mhf.
[vvv] interestingly bred horse.

harvey's grinfromeartoear/presidential ball example "not enough" dam is by presidential ball out of the dam of cammibest so is a actually a 3/4 relation to cammibest as pb and cambest are both by cam fella and she is inbred to mhf. "not enough "also has the full brother and sister harold j and breath of spring 4x 4 as well as another strain of b of s. Which would be the tesio enthusiasts key to her success.
[vvv] like black caviar, post their success there is always someone who will point to this aspect or that aspect of a horse's pedigree as being 'the key' to it all. If such things were in fact so self evident all along, one wonders why the pedigree boffins and breeding consultants do not apply their analysis, identify such horses, put their $ where their mouths are and snap up these future champions.

Harveys other example is "monkey on my wheel" by mach three who has demonstrated quite a lotof success with mares by sons of cam fella in north america and here. Mach three may be out of your reach but he has a full brother standing in nz extreme three who wasn't as good a racehorse and is still largely unproven as a sire but it's reasonable to assume would do best with the same lines that his brother has.

vvv

[Starship Captain]

Of course I would send a mare to Roll with Joe based on his track record and his brothers, but IMO Extreme Three's ability as a race horse cannot
be compared to Roll with Joe's.
When we are selecting a stallion we put ability/race record as one of many important factors, unless of course the sire is already proven and in doing so
we let other breeder's test the muddy water's of this kind of sire.

[HISGEN65]

Great thread lads...Although I think breeding is pretty much a lottery its
advantageous to research your options...as I find it hard to understand all
the technical generics regarding horse breeding I do enjoy reading peoples
expertise..I agree with Dizzy,I think alot of people dont reseach their mares pedigree hard enough..here is the breeding of my mare,I would extremely interested to hear your breeding advice on her
THE GOLD RUSH NZ Foaling Date: 07-Dec-2005 Sex:Filly Sire:PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=280418) Dam:GOLDEN CHARM (NZ) (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=366491) Broodmare Sire:NEW YORK MOTORING USA (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=153913)

[Starship Captain]

Art Major p,4,1.48.4 $3,273,217
from the mares breeding would she benefit from a sire that was going to up size her offspring?

[Triple V]

Great thread lads...Although I think breeding is pretty much a lottery its
advantageous to research your options...as I find it hard to understand all
the technical generics regarding horse breeding I do enjoy reading peoples
expertise..I agree with Dizzy,I think alot of people dont reseach their mares pedigree hard enough..here is the breeding of my mare,I would extremely interested to hear your breeding advice on her
THE GOLD RUSH NZ Foaling Date: 07-Dec-2005 Sex:Filly Sire:PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=280418) Dam:GOLDEN CHARM (NZ) (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=366491) Broodmare Sire:NEW YORK MOTORING USA (http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/reports/performance.cfm?horse_id=153913)

[VVV] G'day James,
Fashionable bloodlines and this cross and that cross and all the rest of the hocus pocus, smoke and mirrors & general bollocks aside, first and foremost we are breeding flesh and blood. With that in mind I'd have a crack at a horse with real frame size to him and one that tends to leave them very much in his own image...Sutter Hanover. My brother's got a really thumping Sutter colt, he's a weanling but he is already a big boy but he is not coarse with it which is nice. This is him with his dam at 8 days short of 3 months old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ39J49IaCk. His name's Ned. He is even bigger than this now, that was 6 months ago.

[HISGEN65]

Thanks mate...very nice colt & great to see a broodie is first class nick also.
I have liked Sutter as a horse since I first heard of him..

Check this filly out...the video was taken when she was 4 months old
Fingers crossed she will be a nice race horse for me
She is by Mr Aviator out of my Trump Casino mare
Bit of an old mix but she is a nice type

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y3FSIrFhbE

[Big Max]

Congrats James,very nice filly,it will be interesting to see how Mr Aviator goes with his first crop,i know a few people that went to him so fingers crossed.

[Triple V]

Thanks mate...very nice colt & great to see a broodie is first class nick also.
I have liked Sutter as a horse since I first heard of him..

Check this filly out...the video was taken when she was 4 months old
Fingers crossed she will be a nice race horse for me
She is by Mr Aviator out of my Trump Casino mare
Bit of an old mix but she is a nice type

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y3FSIrFhbE

[VVV] G'day James,
Geeze, it's hard not to like her. Big & strong and light on her feet. A great result. That's exactly what I mean when I bang on about flesh and blood. Breeders can easily get too hooked up on this cross or that cross or this sireline or that one...and in doing so forget about the fact that the resultant foal can only ever be a physical combination of the sire and dam. I've done it myself, twice in fact, and you'd have thought I would have learned the first time around, but no.
I bred a small sire to a small, fine boned mare because it looked great on paper & then later on I bred another small sire to yet another small, fine boned mare, again ignoring both sire & dam as types. I got exactly what I deserved in both instances, small and fine boned colts & try as they might, neither were much good, they were just too small, and that was all my fault.
There are always exceptions as far as small mares leaving big foals and big mares leaving small foals, but generally speaking I reckon the best way to approach it is to try & overlay a mental picture of the sire on a mental picture of the dam and with the intention of trying to correct as many of their respective faults as possible.
I read a piece once where a bloke put it so well " There are people in this business who will breed mice to mice and elephants to elephants...." (& I can't rememeber the rest of it word for word) but basically he said he didn't get into bloodlines much, instead the sires that he picked for his mares had to be complimentary types. He didn't breed a sire that toed out to a mare that did the same, he didn't breed big to big nor small to small etc. It was one of the most refreshingly common sense interviews I've read in a long time and I honestly don't think there's anything more to it than that.
Over the centuries for various reasons we humans have allowed ourselves to be swept away with the 'mystique' of the horse...as though its reproduction and that of all other forms of livestock are somehow mutually exclusive. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Basic livestock breeding principles apply be it a horse or a cow or a sheep or a chicken. Form and Function come first and foremost. The rest, IMO, is just pleasant window dressing.

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi James..The Gold Rush..nice breeding lines....I have had a good look at your mares bloodlines...An Abercrombie/Artsplace sire out of a Direct Scooter mare would be ideal on paper .A son of Art Major..Santanna Blue Chip, out of a Direct Scooter line mare would be worth a look, He stands at Alabar for around $4k. A cheaper sire with the right bloodlines Pacific Rocket a son of Albert Albert out of a Direct Scooter mare stands in NSW for around $2k .
I have a bloodline report for you mare with Santanna Blue Chip...looks good..email me on Kevin.Dinnigan@Three.com.au an i will email it to you.
Kind Regards..Kevin.

[Starship Captain]

TripleV, that foal has some size, nice paddock they are in.

The Mr Aviator filly certainly has the looks, being from the south I have not heard of the sire, will look him up.

Congrat's to you both on the condition of the mares and foals.

[dizzy]

James your Mr Aviator filly looks a good sort, what sort of budget are you thinking of for The Goldrush? Jamie I couldn't agree more with your form and function philosophy but when a bit more use of the grey matter may also reveal historical precedents for and against such matings why not use it?

[Triple V]

James your Mr Aviator filly looks a good sort, what sort of budget are you thinking of for The Goldrush? Jamie I couldn't agree more with your form and function philosophy but when a bit more use of the grey matter may also reveal historical precedents for and against such matings why not use it?

[VVV] Sure, no question...even if I find a horse that I think physically compliments a mare, if I have an idea or even just a feeling that, for whatever reason, the rest doesn't sit right then I keep looking.
The horse I've really taken a shine to, although his bloodlines are a bit out of left field, is Sweet Lou. He was a wicked fast 2yo and has come back big-time at 3yrs, with all things being even he should win the NA Cup this weekend. He's by Yankee Cruiser (who is in turn a son of Artiscape, funnily enough a horse I never had much time for) and he's from a mare by Falcon's Future who is in turn from a mare by Nero.
As I said, a bit off-beat bred but man oh man he is form and function all the way and then some. 1:47.4 last week to equal the Mohawk Track Record and he went to the line like he still had a slice in reserve.

[dizzy]

Yes Sweet Lou is a very nice colt but their are some "ripples" about his trainer. I could offer a suggestion as to where some of that speed came from but as their are those who don't believe in such things I won't. Artiscape was considered a failure in this part of the world which would have made Yankee Cruiser a hard sell for any stud which is a shame because I think he could have done fitted in nicely in NZ. Maybe Sweet Lou will find himself on a flight south one day.

On an earlier post Jamie you said Cammibest could not be inbred because his sire and dam are from different maternal families, my understanding is that inbred is the mating of closely related individuals, I cant find anything that limits "closely related" to through female lines only if you could explain further? Whilst we consider only the progeny of mares to be full or part siblings, geneticly the progeny of stallions are also siblings. In human terms if your father had a son with a women other then your mother would you not consider that child to be your half brother? The nuclear DNA of any foal/child is contributed 50/50 from both the male and female parent. The female does solely contribute the mitachrondial DNA to the foal/child and whilst MTDNA is significant it is a very small % of the total DNA.

I don't think the TB breeders have had as you so elequently put it "their head up their arse" on in/linebreeding but rather were the original exponents of it when breeding TB"s was the province of wealthy men many years ago. In more recent times with a change in the TB industry to commercial breeding, that is studs trying to attract as large a book to their stallions as possible to recover the huge investments made to purchase them, more selective breeding practices of previous years went out the window. Whilst we will always be able to find successfull examples of horses bred on the 3x3 on the sire line I'd like to see the figures on these as a % of those bred that way. As it only takes around 10 years to be able to start breeding 3x3 crosses on the sire line and a few more years after that to evaluate them then if that was the most successful method to produce topliners then don't you think after 250 to 400 years of breeding STB's and TB's thats all we'd breed for now if it was the most successfull?

[Triple V]

G'day Kevin,
I had a look through his fastest/better class race winners and something interesting popped up. There are quite a few in there (including a number that have gone in 1:50 or faster and won 250k+) that are in fact linebred to Cam Fella...as in PB mares having been bred to Cam Fella line sires such as Pacific Fella, his son No Pan Intented and NPI"s half brother Bettor's Delight as well as Camotion etc. If you decided to go down that road there are any number of Cam Fella line sires available to you here in Oz, just depends on what your mare's like in relation to them and what you want to spend.

[VVV] BOTH 125k NSW Breeders Challenge Final 2yo winners are linebred 3x3 to Cam Fella.

[dizzy]

Jamie you really need to start reading or typing more carefully, Married to the Mob is 3x3 to Cam Fella on the sire line but No Ah Saint is not. Before you start shouting again Grand Stride is 3x3 on the sire line but to Abercrombie. Hey if you believe this type pedigree configuration is best there is nothing stopping you from using it as these type crosses are very easy to achieve. And as we need more horses I encourage you to give it your best shot.

[Triple V]

Jamie you really need to start reading or typing more carefully, Married to the Mob is 3x3 to Cam Fella on the sire line but No Ah Saint is not. Before you start shouting again Grand Stride is 3x3 on the sire line but to Abercrombie. Hey if you believe this type pedigree configuration is best there is nothing stopping you from using it as these type crosses are very easy to achieve. And as we need more horses I encourage you to give it your best shot.

[VVV] That's interesting because the result that went up on Sky straight after the race was Blissfull Guy. On top of that...to quote Fred " The four's got it...Blissfull Guy". Something has changed since then?

[Big Max]

yep,protest upheld

[Triple V]

Yeh? Geeze, missed that, saw nothing in it side on. Cheers Rosario. That'd be something good for Trots TV to add (Steward's head on footage) when protests are lodged, upheld or otherwise. There you go Dot, you've got me on a TKO. :rolleyes:

[Big Max]

i also heard something about a couple of horses being in the wrong starting position,if this is true it's completely gobsmacking

[Triple V]

???? Geeze....let's hope that's not right. That'd be a shocker. :(

[Big Max]

you betcha,not good!

[Triple V]

With the Emergencies out (2 & 5), across the front it should have been 1,3,4,6,7,8,9,10,11 and 12. Looks like Colin's horse broke from the 2 hole of it's own accord & out wide Pocket Change was a length or so off the gate as they were let go. Numbers wise/gate wise I can't see exactly who was where from the replay. OPSM first thing in the morning. :(

[dizzy]

I'll give you a few points back Jamie- I only read the results, no stewards comments there yet. Gave you a free hit too with Grand Stride if you want to expand to 3x3 on the sireline to any great sire

[strong persuader]

How about the quinella in the 2yo Fillies Final?

Both grand daughters of Scoots Away!

That is one helluva way to boost the maternal family!

[Greg Hando]

Lettucefib barrier 4 and Almost El Eagle barrier 5 started from the wrong barrier's ( 5 and 4 ) and apparently Shane Tritton was offered the option of being declared a non runner but declined and both runner's were declared starter's with an enquiry taking place into the start. I would have thought that if you start in the wrong barrier you would be DQ'd , but apparently not.

[Triple V]

I'll give you a few points back Jamie- I only read the results, no stewards comments there yet. Gave you a free hit too with Grand Stride if you want to expand to 3x3 on the sireline to any great sire

[VVV] :D :D:D I've done it in the past (it was kind of Brett Coffey's idea so I can blame him because it didn't work quite as well as I'd have liked) but in view of the result, Abercrombie's not a horse that I'd be looking to linebreed like that. I reckon it risks dulling down their point to point speed, my observation is that many of the horses bred that way tend to be stronger than they are fast, but as always there's an exception to every rule & Grand Stride is a very notable one as he does have a fair lick of high speed. Phil's hit on the most important part, noting that there was a 2yo quinella from daughters of Scoots Away. Maternal families. The rest is just window dressing.

[dizzy]

Now your getting it Jamie, maternal families much better then sire lines. Brett I presume writes the Alabar Newsletter? He seems to be getting more interested in pedigree philosphy too. Speaking of Maternal Families you know the pedigree for Go the Goose is wrong in the Tesio program? Its actually much better then it appears but then if you don't do pedigrees but form and function then it doesn't matter. But most importantly for you as a seller it was right in the pacing gold catalogue but I doubt to many people would actually check.

[Triple V]

I can't remember that mare ever having had one in the APG Sale? No matter.
On the linebreeding to Cam Fella thing, here's some to follow Dot. Forest City Sale October 13/14-2012.
Of the 12 x 2012 yearlings bred by Seelster Farms from the first North American crop of Artistic Fella....
Britannia Seelster- Artistic Fella/Brokenstar-Camluck, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Cabernet Seelster- Artistic Fella/Cinder Sun Rose- Cambest, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Chinook Seelster- Artistic Fella/Cashmere Hall- Blissfull Hall, a 3x4 Cam Fella.
Sequin Seelster- Artistic Fella/Sids Sparkle- Cam's Card Shark, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Titus Seelster- Artistic Fella/That Day- Camluck, a 3x3 Cam Fella.

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi Jamie.
Good work re the 3 x 3 cam fella lines.
I wonder what previous sires these mares went to?
Regards.
KevinD

[Triple V]

Britannia Seelster- Artistic Fella/Brokenstar-Camluck, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
1st foal of the mare.

Cabernet Seelster- Artistic Fella/Cinder Sun Rose- Cambest, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Mare has a current 3yo to Modern Art and lost the next one by Stonebridge Regal.

Chinook Seelster- Artistic Fella/Cashmere Hall- Blissfull Hall, a 3x4 Cam Fella.
Mare has a current 2yo to Stonebridge Regal

Sequin Seelster- Artistic Fella/Sids Sparkle- Cam's Card Shark, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Mare has a current 2yo to Santana Blue Chip

Titus Seelster- Artistic Fella/That Day- Camluck, a 3x3 Cam Fella.
Mare has Moderate winners to Western Maverick & Modern Art plus a raced 3yo by Modern Art and a current 2yo by Mach Three.

[dizzy]

Jamie it was in the book but not at the sale actually, FSS withdrawn. Who ever determines Seelster Farm matings obviously see merit in the 3x3 sire line to Cam Fella, I'll probably forget these but I have faith that you will remind me Jamie if one becomes a star.

[Triple V]

Dot, you are absolutely right, that was the 2011 Sale. I am going brain dead. He ended up with Paul Kahleldt. Named Lettuceatthegoose. Has had a couple of trials earlier in the year but that's it. Apparently goes ok but no idea what it's up to now.
Rather than the 3x3 thing, which is interesting but there's so much more to it...I just think Artistic Fella will get the job done, especially so here. We only bred 1 filly by him, a big strong thing she was, and we gave her away at the most recent Sydney APG. She ended up in QLD. A very nice bloke named Trevor bought her and apparently she gets along very nicely. I believe Kylie Rassmussen has her. I really like the horse's chances as a sire. He was big, strong and wicked fast, paced 7 or 8 winning miles in 1:48.4 or faster. A more imposing/impressive type you'd be hard pressed to find.

[dizzy]

Jamie did you ever really doubt me? AF was certainly impressive on the track and off, from memory though I think his connections shut him down early in his 2yo year to give him a little time and measure up to the best as a 3yo and older, which he certainly did. I wonder if his foals will need/get the same consideration? But I think he has the right attributes to make a successful sire

[Triple V]

Indeed not. I'm glad that someone knows what's happening Dot.
I'd completely forgotten that colt had ever been catalogued.
Re: Artistic Fella, that was a training master stroke, one of the all-time great ones actually when you consider the ultimate outcome.
The horse was going well at 2yrs, had won 3 from 4 starts including 2 NJSS Heats, & from what I understand Elliott could easily have pressed on but instead he decided to put the horse away. As a 3yo he also kept the horse racing at The Meadowlands too, duly smashing the absolute crap out of so many of the colts who wanted to drop by & try their luck against him. I think he won 10 straight @ The Meadowlands at 3yrs.
As contrary as it might sound, I think they will win more than their fair share at 2yrs...not so much because I think they're neccessarily overtly early maturing types, although some clearly are, but moreso that they're generally just so big & strong & powerful that I reckon they'll just out-muscle a lot of their competition. We'll see soon enough. The first of them should start to race this coming December/January.

[Triple V]

Jamie it was in the book but not at the sale actually, FSS withdrawn. Who ever determines Seelster Farm matings obviously see merit in the 3x3 sire line to Cam Fella, I'll probably forget these but I have faith that you will remind me Jamie if one becomes a star.

[VVV] Big Shark leads all the way & wins on debut at Pinjarra, 2yo geld. Four Starzzz Shark- Janterra- Luck Cam. 3x3 Cam Fella. Paul Ellis looking a dead cert. for The 2012 Nostradamus Award.

[dizzy]

[VVV] Big Shark leads all the way & wins on debut at Pinjarra, 2yo geld. Four Starzzz Shark- Janterra- Luck Cam. 3x3 Cam Fella. Paul Ellis looking a dead cert. for The 2012 Nostradamus Award.

Keep em comin Jamie, when you've done the hard yards and determined the %age of winners against the %age of foals bred that way and shown the cross to be superior to the overall %age of winners bred anyway, then I'll be only to happy to conceed its a great idea. Sadly I'm obviously not a candidate for any Nostradamus award as I don't know who Paul Ellis is, but I'm sure he must be a worthy candidate nevertheless.

And Jamie on this one you actually are the one looking at the big picture, I'm not interested in breeding a 2yo winner at Pinjarra, my focus is extremely narrow, I'm looking to manipulate the results in the genetic lottery to yield an American Jewel or Somebeachsomewhere.

[Triple V]

Hey Dot, would you do me a small favour?
Call me for everything under the sun, knock yourself out, but please could you get the spelling of my name right?
It's Ja(i)m(i)e. It has two 'i's and no waiting. Thanks & regards.
PS. By way of identification, Paul Ellis is an old Hermit that lives in a cave in the Gold Coast hinterland.
He spends his days pondering breeding & related matters but those who wish to visit him in his humble abode seeking his pearls of wisdom must negotiate his offsider & bodyguard, 'Chopper'.

[dizzy]

No problem I'll revert to VVV spelling has never been among my strong suits

[dizzy]

How about the quinella in the 2yo Fillies Final?

Both grand daughters of Scoots Away!

That is one helluva way to boost the maternal family!

Add another one to the family Phil-2yo vicbred filly winner out of 1/2 sister to Scoots Away

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi Jamie et al.
Yet another 3 x 3 Cam Fella bred winner last night at Gloucester Park.Lucky Joy 2 year old filly won the $100,000 W.A sires.
Northern Luck out of a Armbro Operative mare, She also has a multiple winning full sister. Best M/R 1.58.6.
The filly Luck Joy was passed in at RoyalStar clearance sale for $200. The owners paid less than 2k for her....Not a bad buy?
Regards. KevinD
Keep the info coming for all concerned.

[Triple V]

Beat me to it Kevin. How about them apples eh? Paul Ellis, Nostradamus Award Winner, 2012.

[dizzy]

Congratulations to the connections Kevin, obviously astute purchasing. Perhaps someone can do the sums and determine if this cross actually does out perform it's opportunities. It won't be me, I don't have the patience for the task (nor an appropriately credentialled mare to warrant it). As you said earlier VVV there are (and have been) any number of Cam Fella line sires available in Australia- Bettors Delight covers how many mares each year?, Armbro Operative's foal tally exceeds 2000, how many fillies have gone to stud etc. Put simply there has been a huge opportunity for this cross to occur and therefore produce winners, which this season has included a couple that have won significant races.

When you next gain an audience with your friend VVV please enquire politely for me if his prediction was based on pedigree or probability, lest he actually be eligible for the Nobel Prize for mathematics which I for one would most certainly not wish to deny him.