Stallion fees 2012

[Big Max]

Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are but i have to say that i find it very odd that we are almost at the end of June and i can't see what i will be paying for service fees this year.I've had a look around at the major studs and it's all TBA.

if anyone has any info on this i'd be happy to know as we have at least 6 maybe 7 to breed from this year.

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Hi Max.
Yes i have looked around the studs for pricing etc, no info..hopefully the prices are the same or less than last year with the downturn in breeders breeding.
With the 6/7 mares you are breeding this season, hopefully they match with one studs sires so you get a very big discount.
Regards.
KevinD

[mightymo]

i think you will find the big studs releasing their prices in the next few weeks.

Surely in the current economic environment and after the bashing at the sales, prices need to be reduced...

[Big Max]

could not agree more Harvey,something needs to happen with respect to fees to make us want to continue breeding.

[mightymo]

it has been suggested to me in recent times that a number of us breeders get together and then go to the various studs and say " we have 100 mares, what are you going to offer us"...

[eliteblood]

PTF fees are
$2500 Aces N Sevens (previously $2750)
$2800 Always A Virgin (previously $3300)
$8800 RNR Heaven
$5000 Roll With Joe
$5600 Sporstwriter
$13200 Somebeachsomewhere

[Big Max]

yeah saw PTF fees about an hour after i posted but still surprised the other major studs are waiting so long,i was also hoping SBSW would have come down a bit.I remember a while back Mach Three being for memory 8000 in Canada and out here 13000,i know he's come down here but he still hasn't matched his then Canadian price and let's also remember the strength of our dollar,so even dropping the price here the north Americans are still earning very nicely just by the fact our dollar is so strong and unlikely to drop for quite a while.

[Starship Captain]

it has been suggested to me in recent times that a number of us breeders get together and then go to the various studs and say " we have 100 mares, what are you going to offer us"...
Breeder's have been getting together and doing this for some time just on a smaller scale, the farms will take the booking's and include conditions to the contract to cover
themselves from mares that are not bred or are not infoal.

[eliteblood]

yeah saw PTF fees about an hour after i posted but still surprised the other major studs are waiting so long,i was also hoping SBSW would have come down a bit.I remember a while back Mach Three being for memory 8000 in Canada and out here 13000,i know he's come down here but he still hasn't matched his then Canadian price and let's also remember the strength of our dollar,so even dropping the price here the north Americans are still earning very nicely just by the fact our dollar is so strong and unlikely to drop for quite a while.

I believe Mach Three is already booked out so I can't imagine his fee coming down at all. More likely to go up if anything.

[mightymo]

I believe Mach Three is already booked out so I can't imagine his fee coming down at all. More likely to go up if anything.

thats all well and good, but at some point the studs(and in particular the US stud owners) need to realise how bad things are in Aust at the moment.

The amount of money flowing out of the industry is mind boggling and most the US owners have not tipped a single cent back into the Aust industry...

A story of a golden goose springs to mind...

[mango]

Hi Harvey

Considering they dropped SBSW service fee from $20k to $15k in the states one would think they would of dropped it a little over here but i suppose the deal was done for the semen before the drop in price i'm not sure. It will be interesting to see if Nevele R drop Western Ideal's service fee again, when he was $20k in the states he was $18,700 out here and then they dropped him to $15k in the states and his fee was lowered to $14,750 out here and for the past season Western Ideal stood for a service fee of $10k at Hanover Shoe farm's so if his fee drop's to around that out here he will be great value for money i would think as he has proven himself as a great sire..

[Kevin Dinnigan]

Yes breeders should band together and form a breeders co-op, the more breeders in a group the bigger the bargaining power. Big business does this everyday.
Who is up to joining a group like this. Your response is key.
Kind Regards.
KevinD.

[Triple V]

G'day Harvey,

From your persepctive, you are always going to be pushing it up hill as far as service fees are concerned.
Every man & his dog knows that here in Australia the annual production of Breed to Race Breeders greatly outnumbers that of the Commercial come Yearling Sales Breeders...annually running at something to the tune of 5 or 6 to 1 in favour of the Breed To Race fraternity if I remember the HRA Breeders Panel Survey results correctly....might be even more?
As much as they might prefer to believe otherwise, the fact is...Commercial Breeders are not driving the bus.
The Breed to Race Breeders are.
In tandem with that reality, the business model of every single Southern Hemipshere Studs is duly not focussed upon Yearling Sales, rather they are sellers of Semen/Services and their largest single group of customers are Breed To Race Breeders.
Looking at the relative value of service fees from the point of view of a Commercial Breeder assessing fees Vs yearling sales returns is a somewhat pointless exercise because that aspect represents an admittedly high profile but overall minor part of the overall stud business.

[Starship Captain]

We have done some foal share deal's with studs in the past, no service fee, when the horse sold, the agreed % of sale to the stud farm.
Our experience with this was ok, a good sale meant we paid more than the service fee, a bad sale we paid less than the service fee.

One other thing, they would not accept some of the mare's for this, said not commercial enough.

[eliteblood]

thats all well and good, but at some point the studs(and in particular the US stud owners) need to realise how bad things are in Aust at the moment.

The amount of money flowing out of the industry is mind boggling and most the US owners have not tipped a single cent back into the Aust industry...

A story of a golden goose springs to mind...

Harvey,

The amount of money flowing out of the industry is a huge issue and is one that I have raised many times in the past. If we had enough faith in our local product to breed to our own stallions rather than those from US and to buy and breed more of our own racehorses and less from NZ the positive impact on our industry would be massive. I wonder if it will ever happen.
IMO stallion owners, especially those residing overseas, will reduce service fees when market forces dictate that they have to, ie. when enough broodmare owners decide that they are not prepared to pay $x for that stallion and breed instead to a stallion that they perceive offers better value. Mach Three is clearly not in that situation so I can't see any likelihood of his fee being reduced.
I think that service fee levels on the whole are above what the industry can afford and they are slowly coming down as competition for the breeding dollar intesifies. The laws of supply and demand will fix that. The far greater issue for our breeders (and trainers and drivers and blacksmiths, etc, etc.) I believe is that there has been a massive reduction in people wanting to be involved as an owner. The option always exists to breed to a cheaper stallion but at the end of the day if nobody wants the yearlings then you are screwed. Breeders will not sustain losses forever, whether they be commercial breeders or breed to race breeders.

[dizzy]

Well said Trevor. I doubt that this is an easy market place for anyone to operate in, mare owners or stallion service providers. Obviously US based owners have benefited from exchange rates in recentyears and could do more here then they do, but by the same token there are perhaps more expenses to be met in shuttling stallions then meets the mare owner eye. No doubt many stallion owners are operating in an even more difficult economy in the US as a result of the GFC then here and the changes to the slots legislation in Ontario threatens to throw the most lucrative market in NA into kaos as well. Market forces and availability may well steer breeders into using more home grown product if some lesser patronised shuttle stallions become to expensive to shuttle.

Ultimately as Trevor said the crux of the problem is the decreasing number of people wanting to be owners, and the number of licensed participants is also in decline. Getting people more people involved in harness racing has to be the number one priority and all avenues have to be explored in order to achieve that. At present the only strategy in place seems to be one of increasing prizemoney, something that certainly doesn't go astray but does not appear to be achieving the desired effect. I cant help but think that some of our decline at least is as a result in turning what was a family sport into an industry in line with the practices of the TB industry. Perhaps we need to get some of the "sport" back into harness racing.

[mightymo]

Spoke to Woodlands Stud today, and they confirmed that their stallions would be standing at the same price as last year

[mango]

I have been informed Art Major has been dropped back to $10k

[Triple V]

After extensive off-season discussions with my business partners Trevor Swan & Dennis Lyle, I can now confirm that Guido, the heavily linebred to Glen Almahurst son of siring legend Whacko The Chook & the great producing mare, Baby Take Ya Teeth Out, will be standing for the same fee as last season.
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/9/3/5/dsc05659.jpg

[mango]

Hey Triple

With the price's of service fee's at the present time, if you price Guido right you and your partner's might make a $ or 2 lmao.

[Triple V]

Hey Dallas,
I forgot to mention that Guido's 2nd dam is by the late Barry Rose's incomparable gift to the Australian Breeding Industry, a wonderful stallion who's name...even to this very day...is spoken in reverent tones by many a Hunter Valley based Standardbred Breeder, the great Forrest Trillium. If that fact alone doesn't get you in, nothing will. :rolleyes:

[aussiebreno]

After extensive off-season discussions with my business partners Trevor Swan & Dennis Lyle, I can now confirm that Guido, the heavily linebred to Glen Almahurst son of siring legend Whacko The Chook & the great producing mare, Baby Take Ya Teeth Out, will be standing for the same fee as last season.
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/9/3/5/dsc05659.jpg
Take him down to Tassie you might get a few locals interested. And some might even send their mares to him as well.

[Triple V]

That's a bit harsh Breno. Guido's a long time project of mine, he originally appeared as a foil to some of the ridiculously overblown Sire adverts that were put about, especially so here in NSW.
On the other hand, Tasmania has a long history of producing top class racehorses and from the mid to late 1990's onwards we've had a lot of success with Tassie maternal families in particular. The colt in my avatar there to the left...he's from just such a family. Some of the best horsemen and women I've ever met come from Tasmania.

Here in NSW, things have changed immeasurably in recent times however without doubt and very much to its eternal shame, this State holds the undisputed record for importing more half arsed, half baked, genetic trash sires to stand stud than any other State in this Nation or New Zealand.
There was a time when things had gotten so bad here that it appeared NSW Studmasters had individually & collectively all but destroyed the once all conquering NSW Broodmare Band...and only for the sake of a small but dedicated band of NSW based breeders who religiously sent their mares both Interstate and over to NZ to be bred to better quality sires than were available to them here at home, the NSW Broodmare Band would have been wiped out all together.
The best thing that has ever happened in my lifetime was the cessation of the NSW Sires Stakes program & the move to a Mares Based System. The NSW Sires Stakes was a quite foolishly conceived system that presided over and supported years and years of breed destroying abject mediocrity, the quite deplorable likes of which I hope we will never...ever....see again.

[Big Max]

I think Guido is the way to go Jaimie,sign me up for 7 hits!

[Triple V]

Of course. I had already taken the liberty of booking you in Rosario. With it being a little known fact that Graham was not only Guido's breeder but also his Trainer throughout his illustrious 1 trial career I knew you'd be back again. This is his 32nd season which poses a few management problems as these days, sometimes when he is collected...all you get is a heap of dust. I am told he and Trevor share that particular foible. :rolleyes:

[Big Max]

Haha love it!!!!!!!!!

[Big Max]

it actually was amazing to think that Stature was the best stallion or let's say the most successful stallion in NSW not that long ago compared to the high quality there is now.things have improved very quickly i'd say.

[Triple V]

Yeh, he ended up doing a fair job too despite having a very low key/slow start. He was a peculiar horse, I remember hearing about him adopting an orphan foal there at one stage. Initially they thought he was sub fertile but they eventually found out that when nobody was around he used to get inside & out of view & root away his feed bin. By the time it came around to jumping a mare he had spilled his on the ground so to speak. Wayne Lamb was the one who straightened him out and got him rolling as I recall.
If you really want to frighten the Hell out of yourself dig up a few old AUS/NZ Sire's Guides. When I moved about 3 years ago I filled up a couple of yellow Otto Bins with old catalogues, guides etc. that I'd collected. Many a nightmare went the way of recycling. It's also funny to look at how the standard of advertising has changed and improved over the years. Some of the Sire's adverts from the early to mid 1980's were hilarious. The claims made were nothing short of fictional in many cases. I recall an absolute beauty where the Stud concerned couldn't get hold of a winning photo of their new horse...mainly because he had won so few races and few of those were worth taking a picture of let alone keeping one...so they got hold of one of him finishing 3rd and just photo-shopped the first two horses across the line out of the pic. It was a really poorly done job too but for years apparently nobody noticed. The guy who owned and stood the horse back then was a long time, high profile Committee Member of the then VIC Breeders Association. Ah yes, the bad old days. :rolleyes:

[Greg Hando]

it actually was amazing to think that Stature was the best stallion or let's say the most successful stallion in NSW not that long ago compared to the high quality there is now.things have improved very quickly i'd say.

Panorama was pretty handy in his day as well. We have a lot to thank the internet for in being able to watch horse's race and their bloodline's, all at the click of the mouse these day's and i'm sure in day's gone by a lot of these stallion's would never have graced our shore's had we been able to access information accurately.

[gutwagon]

I think Guido must have jumped a few fences and knocked up a few of my mares . I have bred a few foals with his fine looks and ability, now I know where that came from.
He looks like he could be a bit hard to catch. I guess thats why they leave that rope on him !!

[mango]

Hey Rick

If i was you i'd keep it quiet about Guido jumping the fences and knocking your mare's up, the partner's involved in Guido are ruthless and will be chasing there service fee money lmao.

[Triple V]

What do you expect? Trevor's a Bean Counter...it is in his DNA to do that. ;)

[eliteblood]

I don't think Guido is any more capable of jumping a fence and knocking a mare up than what Jaimie is

[Triple V]

There's a bloke who lives in Calderwood Rd & I bet he can still jump a fence with the best of them. If he'd get rid of that Tweed coat & cream coloured turtle necked skivvy he'd go even better still. ;)

[strong persuader]

Hey Dallas,
I forgot to mention that Guido's 2nd dam is by the late Barry Rose's incomparable gift to the Australian Breeding Industry, a wonderful stallion who's name...even to this very day...is spoken in reverent tones by many a Hunter Valley based Standardbred Breeder, the great Forrest Trillium. If that fact alone doesn't get you in, nothing will. :rolleyes:

Is there any chance that Guido carries the blood of another imported gem that stood in the Bathurst area, Burley Guy? If his third or fourth dam happened to be by BG, then that pedigree becomes one of monumental import in highlighting the immense value that these importers added to the local breeding scene!!!

[Triple V]

Is there any chance that Guido carries the blood of another imported gem that stood in the Bathurst area, Burley Guy? If his third or fourth dam happened to be by BG, then that pedigree becomes one of monumental import in highlighting the immense value that these importers added to the local breeding scene!!!

[VVV] Unfortunately, no Phil. As the story goes, that oustanding 1970 foaled son of Bret Hanover and Rilda Guy was suffering from a case of Founder the day that they showed up with the mare to be trailer bred, so it was back on the float and off to Scone and to Forrest Trillium she went. The rest, as they say, is history. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I've never heard of that horse. Who's paddock did he darken?

[strong persuader]

[VVV] Unfortunately, no Phil. As the story goes, that oustanding 1970 foaled son of Bret Hanover and Rilda Guy was suffering from a case of Founder the day that they showed up with the mare to be trailer bred, so it was back on the float and off to Scone and to Forrest Trillium she went. The rest, as they say, is history. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness, I've never heard of that horse. Who's paddock did he darken?

He stood at Rossmore Park, run by Richard Webster and his sons, just out of Bathurst on the Limekilns Road. It was the old Army Camp used in WWII and afterwards as a Migrant Camp for war refugees. If I hunt around, I may even still have a catalogue from their clearance sale when they decided to leave harness racing, it is full of horses by Shannondoi, Chorker, Tarcoolador, Kiwi Chieftain and other illuminaries :) They then turned the old place into the Bathurst Sheep and Cattle Drome and as far as I know, it is still running quite successfully as that today.

[ARTOFFICIAL]

Alabar service fees for new season???

[Big Max]

waiting waiting still waiting................????????

[aussiebreno]

waiting waiting still waiting................????????
Look champ this thead is about Stallion fees. Please don't take it off topic and start talking about NSW waiting to win origin.

[Big Max]

HAHAHA brilliant..........my next horse will be named "SEVEN" or maybe "THURSTON IS KING" loved that result last night!

[Triple V]

I had a somewhat late dinner with 'she who must be obeyed' and then watched Paul Murray Live. These days I'd prefer to put my Jatz on a Farrier's Anvil and then proceed to repeatedly smash them with a hammer than watch a game of football of either code. Much rather watch Premier League Soccer or the NFL.

[aussiebreno]

I had a somewhat late dinner with 'she who must be obeyed' and then watched Paul Murray Live. These days I'd prefer to put my Jatz on a Farrier's Anvil and then proceed to repeatedly smash them with a hammer than watch a game of football of either code. Much rather watch Premier League Soccer or the NFL.
Interesting choice. Is that so you can cook up your muffins in between the players actually doing anything? Most boring sport I've ever had the displeasure of watching!!!

[Triple V]

Getting back on topic...there's a pretty fair whisper doing the rounds that 1 or more of the big farms are going to offer alternative terms on their service fees, as in 1 price for a pay on 42 day test and another for a pay on live foal and one is said to be going pay on live foal across the board. I recall Nevele R doing this with Rustler Hanover a fair few years back now...he was advertised with 2 prices, not sure how it turned out for them, but these days I think it would work well. There's a pretty fair market for services POLF terms, Art Official was struggling to get mares until they turned around and advertised him on a POLF basis and he duly served 200 or so mares. The Southern Hemisphere is without doubt THE most competitive market place there is going (due largely to open books) & the quality of sires available this time around is without precedent on top of which we have free access to sires here that a lot of Nth American Breeders can't get a mare booked into. Very interesting to see how things go.

[dizzy]

No Prices yet but website indicates M3 is book full in Oz and CUF book full in Oz and Nz. Its getting to be a very compeditive and shrinking market so I imagine there will be an increasing number of payment options and multiple booking options available. Something I recall from the states is that some stallions that were POLF had different fees depending on if you got a colt or a fily.

[Triple V]

That was definitely the case for Direct Scooter. As racehorses his fillies were generally pretty ordinary & so when that became well known they operated on the basis that if you got a filly you paid half what you paid if you got a colt.
I can think of a few sires available here where you'd much rather get a colt foal but then there's one or two where a filly would be very warmly welcomed too. I kind of doubt anyone here would have the Cajones required to highlight that 'can't sire a decent filly to save himself' sort of a shortcoming by way of advertising two different fees based on the sex of the resultant foal...but who knows? We live in hope.

[ARTOFFICIAL]

Message from Alabar yesterday:
"Hi, the setting of service fees has hit a hitch as we need to possibly adjust them. This is taking longer than we had hoped.
We hope they will be set by next week. We're really sorry for this."

[dizzy]

Wasn't thinking of the race course results as the catalyst for a difference in fee, but perhaps a discount for a commercial breeder who's stock are destined for the sales because at the sales there certainly is a difference in the average returns

[Triple V]

Yep. Those are ultimately/effectively on par huh? My only fear is that officialdom might then use it as an excuse to once again avert their gaze from the issue of expanded racing opportunities for fillies and mares. That's the way some of these bozos think you know. You'd be gobsmacked by some of the ideas they get in their heads, especially where fillies & mares only racing is concerned.

[aussiebreno]

TripleVs pay on live foal rumour he heard is true. http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=18540

[dizzy]

POLF certainly has a full head of steam up now with Empire announcing it for all their stallions. I think its a good idea especially for small breeders but think its only fair enough if the studs are charging a booking/usage fee for their stallions as part of the deal as they (the studs) have costs to cover as well. As they say I guess we'll find out in the fullness of time what deals are actually in the offering. The turmoil in North America is to our advantage at least in the short term but after that who knows.

[Triple V]

http://www.empirestallions.com/foaloption.html

It's on their website already.

[Starship Captain]

POLF is going to be great for breeder's and a big thank's must got to Mr & Mrs James for the move.
It will not be easy or at all possible for some to offer POLF, with most service fee payment's being made
over 3Months Nov,Dec2012,Jan 2013 (that's a guess) they will now have to wait until Nov,Dec2013,Jan2014 holly shit
it could be as high as 80% of there income (that's a guess).
I could not operate for that period, with 20%income.(that's a guess).

[teecee]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99136

[Triple V]

That remains the biggest singlehanded total demolition job done a class Miracle Mile field that I have ever seen, bar none. God only knows what MR he would have returned had Menangle been in place at that time. I reckon that he'd have gone down around the low 1:48's or sub. Awesome horse, ruined racing for me for a fair while afterwards. Everything else seemed to be so pedestrian in comparison.

[eliteblood]

Alabar service fees are now on their website, including pay on live foal options
http://www.alabar.com.au/Stallions/tabid/55/Default.aspx?utm_source=Alabar+eNews&utm_campaign=daeee20a1c-Alabar_eNews_20_7_127_19_2012&utm_medium=email

[Tangles]

Alabar service fees are now on their website, including pay on live foal options
http://www.alabar.com.au/Stallions/tabid/55/Default.aspx?utm_source=Alabar+eNews&utm_campaign=daeee20a1c-Alabar_eNews_20_7_127_19_2012&utm_medium=email

Looking at the Alabar Service fee's listed, even with GST included it looks glaringly obvious that owner's of broodmare's in Aus are being overcharged by around 25% in comparision to there NZ counterparts due to the conversion of the Aussie dollar to the limp NZ dollar.
I believe Alabar needs to explain this.
After all if you buy a yearling from NZ you generally pay more, than for a similiar product here.
NZ broodmare owner's are win/win Aus broodmare owner's are just getting the short end of the deal. Am I wrong with my summations or do other's feel the same?

[teecee]

Stud fees are usually set in agreement with the American owners of the stallion.
To them the price is simply a figure. (Australasian dollars rather than Aust / NZ dollars.
If they wanted to take exchange rates into account the fee would be varying by the minute.
Australia has 10%GST included in the fee while NZ fees are the same figure with 15% GST added on.

In the washup NZ breeders pockets are emptied by an extra 5%.

When buying yearlings from NZ the exchange rate does come into effect. and $1000 nz costs an Aussie $780 from his pocket. Thus NZ yearings are cheaper for Ozzies tha Kiwis. Hence Ozzies have an advantage over Kiwis at NZ sales.. This is reflected in Sales results.

Are your summations wrong?...IMO Yes

[Big Max]

Yes Tony, cheaper to buy them with the exchange rate but we still have to get them here (OZ),of course if you want to race here,and this must be taken into consideration when buying,especially if your buying more than one.Transport is bloody expensive.

[teecee]

2 true

[Gtrain]

I read this forum with interest and breeding season has snuck upon us again. I am a new breeder and enjoy gathering information before making the choice of sire. I have an Our Sir Vancelot mare of small to medium size and good conformation. As the broodmare statistics for OSV are a bit light on atm I have looked at Vance Hanovers record. The obvious success of In The Pocket cross intrigues me. Would people predict this cross to be successful with OSV also? The difficult part is two of the three ITP stallions at stud are a result of ITP over a Vance Hanover mare. Is the Vance Hanover too close to consider Courage or Changeover? Or should I ignore this and look down a different line altogether. I am happy and open to any advice. I enjoy sifting through the information.

[gutwagon]

Gtrain, Have you considered Julius Caesar, full brother to CC and leaving some nice horses.

[Triple V]

i read this forum with interest and breeding season has snuck upon us again. I am a new breeder and enjoy gathering information before making the choice of sire. I have an our sir vancelot mare of small to medium size and good conformation. As the broodmare statistics for osv are a bit light on atm i have looked at vance hanovers record. The obvious success of in the pocket cross intrigues me. Would people predict this cross to be successful with osv also? [vvv] i reckon it would work if only on the basis that the osv's tended to be pretty tough buggers, i've heard a few trainers who have had them say that they would cop everything thrown at them and keep on coming so putting some of that direct scooter line early speed over the top of that makes perfect sense to me.
the difficult part is two of the three itp stallions at stud are a result of itp over a vance hanover mare. Is the vance hanover too close to consider courage or changeover? [vvv] nah, not at all. If anything that's quite an established pattern (as in a 3 x 3 cross with the same horse as the damsire of sire and sire of damsire) blacks a fake is bred that way (in his case it's a 3x3 to albatross, incidentally the sire of vance hanover). Only one thing and that is the size factor. Courage under fire & changeover were too very different horses across the board. Depends which one you think physically suits your mare the best.
or should i ignore this and look down a different line altogether. I am happy and open to any advice. I enjoy sifting through the information.
[vvv] the best bit of general advice i ever got was to trust your gut feelings. It's also so much more rewarding if it all comes off. Something's pushing you towards one of those two horses so work out which one you like the most for your mare and pin your ears back and go for it. If you still can't decide one way or the other then bugger it, just take a shot at both of them, this year cuf, the next changeover or vice versa. Good luck.

vvv

[teecee]

If you are looking primarily at these 2 stallions well CUF is FULL and CLOSED while if you want to look what Changeover is leaving have a look at....

http://www.nevelerstud.co.nz/weanlings

The filly by Holmes Dream (Dam of Bold Cruiser) You probably know his exploits as well as any.

the filly from Joyrock (dam of Waipawa Lad) NZ FFA G1

Click on the underlined hyperlink for pics.

[Gtrain]

vvv

Many thanks. She certainly lives up to the tough monicker. Raced injured most of her life and always put in just lacked some sheer speed. She is probably of a size that any sire would suit however a bit of extra size would assist.

Teecee the Holmes Dream filly certainly has some LEG!! Looks a massive filly!

[Pete]

Gtrain, FWIW - I also have a OSV mare who I have had a couple of foals out of already. Not overly large mare, similarly she was very tough on the track - she fell in track work as a juvenile injuring herself, but made it back to the track to win a race as a 4yo before we retired her.
Her first foal was a filly by Safari who was a little plain, (still only a yearling now and yet to have a full preparation), her second one though is by Always A Virgin who was a magnificent looking foal and is growing into a nice weanling - I think the breeding of Our Sir Vancelot suits Always a Virgin (peppertree have an article about AAV and the sire lines that suit him on their website).
I have also looked into CUF for her in the future as I think there is something to be said for the 3x3 Vance Hanover worked for one of his best in Lanercost. Good luck with her - looking forward to hearing more about the progeny of OSV.

[Gtrain]

Gtrain, FWIW - I also have a OSV mare who I have had a couple of foals out of already. Not overly large mare, similarly she was very tough on the track - she fell in track work as a juvenile injuring herself, but made it back to the track to win a race as a 4yo before we retired her.
Her first foal was a filly by Safari who was a little plain, (still only a yearling now and yet to have a full preparation), her second one though is by Always A Virgin who was a magnificent looking foal and is growing into a nice weanling - I think the breeding of Our Sir Vancelot suits Always a Virgin (peppertree have an article about AAV and the sire lines that suit him on their website).
I have also looked into CUF for her in the future as I think there is something to be said for the 3x3 Vance Hanover worked for one of his best in Lanercost. Good luck with her - looking forward to hearing more about the progeny of OSV.
You must have read my mind Pete as AAV is definitely a sire of interest for me. His progeny look fantastic and he was an under rated horse IMO. Also he has a cracking name and I can't wait to hear some of the offspring!!

[Triple V]

You must have read my mind Pete as AAV is definitely a sire of interest for me. His progeny look fantastic and he was an under rated horse IMO. Also he has a cracking name and I can't wait to hear some of the offspring!!

[VVV] I always thought he was a GREAT gaited horse too.

[Gtrain]

[VVV] I always thought he was a GREAT gaited horse too.
Looks magnificent in the videos however after the open day at Peppertree all anyone could talk about was Sportwriter and whether or not Heaven is 14 hands.

[ARTOFFICIAL]

What was said about Sportswriter Grant?? Also is Heaven a midget or something?????? Any other news from the open day re stallions?

[Gtrain]

Just that he looked magnificent. There was a great deal of conjecture about the size of Heaven with many believing he was much smaller than being reported. I was not there but while not big I don't believe he is a midget.

[Triple V]

One thing's for sure, we're spoilt for choice here in Oz, like no other year that I can recall.
I've found myself thinking that almost every season for the past 5 years or so but this year it is way out beyond all expectations.
We have access to no less than...
4 of the top 5, 8 of the top 10 and 15 of the top 20 current season US 2yo Pacing Sires, the only notable absence being Dragon Again.
4 of the top 5, 6 of the top 10 and 14 of the top 20 current season US 3yo Pacing Sires, the notable absences-Dragon Again & Camluck.
3 of the top 5, 5 of the top 10 and 11 of the top 20 current season US All Age Pacing Sires, the notable absences- Dragon Again & Camluck.
Not bad. Not bad at all.

[Triple V]

Looks magnificent in the videos however after the open day at Peppertree all anyone could talk about was Sportwriter and whether or not Heaven is 14 hands.


[VVV] Hey Grant, they're still doing well.
Late last week/over the weekend AAV had 3 x 30k ISS Gold winners & 1 x 10k ISS Silver winner...2 geldings (Raise The Gin in 1:53.3 & Mr Virgin in 1:53.4) a colt (Crazy Fast Speed in 1:55.1) & a filly (Dirt Diamond) in 1:53.4.
For what it's worth, Raise The Gin's from a Direct Scooter mare, Mr Virgin's from a Real Artist mare, Crazy Fast Speed's from a Yankee Cruiser mare and Dirt Diamond's from a Sportsmaster mare.

[Gtrain]

I happened to see as much. Solid start to a siring career and does seem a value stallion. Spoilt for choice now. Game where your never wrong and a genius if really right!

[Triple V]

That's the ticket. Not always right but never in doubt.

[Triple V]

BTW...it seems to have thus far flown under the radar thus far but Nevele R now has frozen semen from Well Said. I think he's $8,000 POLF or thereabouts. I believe the Hanover crew are very impressed with the quality of his youngsters.

I'll tell you what's pretty funny though. Have a look at the web page.
http://www.nevelerstud.co.nz/well-said
That's not Well Said & Ron Pierce.
That's a Jug winner but it's actually a picture of Shadow Play & Dave Miller.
For years Bob used to have a picture of Precious Bunny standing in for Silk Legacy.
Old habits die hard. ;)

[Gtrain]

It certainly looks a lot brighter and drier than Well Saids LBJ!! Much better looking photo that Well Saids would be. He would appear to be priced in a tough bracket at 8k I would think. Not knocking the horse at all however if I compare him to RNRHeaven I would much rather Heaven. Heaven appears to be a much fresher newer and far more impressive sire line. Some of the Western Hanover sons deeds in Aus have been so so.

[mango]

Hi Grant

Well Said is priced in a tough bracket but then again he was a good racehorse from a strong family and at $8k i think that's good value considering he stands for $15k at Hanover Shoe Farms. Being Western Hanover's 2nd best son i think it put's him well above the Western Hanover's that have graced this part of the world before so i think if given the chance he will do a good job. Another one of Western Hanover's son's that has semen available out here is Western Ideal, when he first had semen available he was $18,700 but his fee has been lowered to $11k and i think he has done a great job in the states being the sire of Rocknroll Hanover, American Ideal and now the newcommer to Alabar Big Jim so he would be worth a go aswell.

[Nemera]

BTW...it seems to have thus far flown under the radar thus far but Nevele R now has frozen semen from Well Said. I think he's $8,000 POLF or thereabouts. I believe the Hanover crew are very impressed with the quality of his youngsters.

I'll tell you what's pretty funny though. Have a look at the web page.
http://www.nevelerstud.co.nz/well-said
That's not Well Said & Ron Pierce.
That's a Jug winner but it's actually a picture of Shadow Play & Dave Miller.
For years Bob used to have a picture of Precious Bunny standing in for Silk Legacy.
Old habits die hard. ;)

That's the same pic as on the USTA stallion showcase so that is probably where they got it from
Just had another look on the USTA pic and it has Well Said on the saddle pad, so I'd say it is him

[mango]

Hi Rena

They changed pick earlier today after they were alerted that they had a pic of Shadow Play as Well Said.

[dizzy]

Grant just remember if you are only going to consider your mares sire in pedigree selections, then your only playing with half the deck

[Triple V]

Lord, grant me the strength to resist the temptation of picking up the latter part of that & running with it.:rolleyes:

[eliteblood]

Pepper Tree Farm service fees have now been posted on their website

http://www.peppertreefarm.org/contracts%20and%20files/STALLION%20SERVICE%20FEES%202012%20updated%2008082 012b.pdf

[mightymo]

Trevor

If you have multiple mares and pay by Mar 31, do you get discount off those prices, and if so how much?

[mightymo]

also, are those prices including GST?

[eliteblood]

I am sure those fees are gst inclusive but I don't know the details of multiple mare discounts.

[Triple V]

Hey fellas, I wonder where the Hell the mares are going to come from to fill the books of all the sires available?
There are way more proven stallions & top shelf prospects on hand than there are mares to do them justice.

[ARTOFFICIAL]

^^^^
I totally agree with you Jaimie!! Only a certain amount of the pie to go around..... Spoilt for choice aren't we

[Triple V]

So who's heading up to Pepper Tree on the 30th of this month?
It's pretty obvious that Trevor's going...he has been doing Always A Virgin promo's for the last 2 or 3 weeks....:p Anyone else? Fingers crossed we will have a Sportswriter foal on the ground by then.