BETFAIR coverage starts tomorrow

[The Charioteer]

on NZ harness racing, how good is that!

[mickeyh]

Very! Just hope at least sky2 starts showing more of it.

[admin]

Thats's great news. I just got this in my inbox:



From Monday 24 January 2011, Betfair punters will be able to access harness markets across New Zealand, including the Kapiti Coast and NZ Metropolitan Trotting Club. Events which will be televised by Sky 2.

This means, come end of March when it's time for another classic Inter Dominion showdown, you will be able to back and lay on the event.

If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to contact our Helpdesk on 1300 BETFAIR (1300 238 324) or via email ausinfo (AT) betfair.com

The Betfair Team.

[Don Corleone]

Betfair could be the best thing to happen to NZ betting ever. A welcome addtition to Harness Racing.

[Shakamaker]

While Betfair refuse to make any payments to NZ Harness Racing, you will continue to see the decline of Harness Racing in New Zealand
How can Betfair be good for NZ Harness Racing when they don't make any payment to Clubs or Controlling Bodies or any contributions to stakes?
Betfair will simply mean further that turnovers continue to drop with the NZ TAB and because the NZ TAB is the only wagering services provider in NZ that provides a return to the Industry, stakemoney will fall in line with the reduction in TAB turnover.
So how can this be good for owners, trainers, drivers and breeders a number of whose lives are heavily dependent on the health of the Harness Racing Industry?

[mango]

Hi Shakamaker
Well said, the people who put in all the hard work from breeding to trainning and owners outlaying money to buy yearlings/horses only for Betfair to come along and profit without putting anything back in which in return means less prize money in the long run. To sum it up plan and simple Betfair are thieves. I hope n.s.w win there court case and teach these arrogant pricks a lesson.

[mickeyh]

Why aren't they paying a product fee? I don't believe in the NSW version that bookies/exchanges should pay their fees based on turnover but either a decent product fee or a fee on gross profit would be appropriate I would have thought. Not sure how they can sign an MOU with NZRB and pay absolutely nothing for the privilige.

[mango]

As far as i'm aware the NSW tab pay on turnover so i think it's only fair for others to follow suit. That then means everyone is on a level playing field. Now Betfair don't want to do this but what gives them the right to dictate how we sell our product i mean we don't tell them how to put there odds on horses do we. If you were a fruit and veg shop you dont dictate to the grower how much he or she can put on there product do you.

[mickeyh]

Completely different models. How can you compare a corporate bookmaker or betting exchange to a tote? A tote relies on takeout percentages to make their money so charging them on turnover is completely different to charging an exchange or corporate bookie. Btw, I'm no fan of corporate bookies so am not sticking up for them - just looking at this objectively. A corporate could turn over for example $1M on a Saturday but actually make a loss. You and NSW say that they should be taxed on the $1M. Certainly not a level playing field given that the tote can not lose. Can't think of anywhere else in life that you can be taxed for making a loss.

[Don Corleone]

The NZ TAB have monoploised the betting in NZ since its inception. Their 'take out' is far more than any tab or betting house in Aust, Asia or the UK. At a meeting I was at recently, the talk from a TAB rep was that take out rates would drop? Due to compeition? Therefore, Betfairs launch into NZ must be positive as more money will generated. I totally agree that Betfair should be paying for the product that we put on but the very mention of their name to the TAB shakes the hell out of them and sends them running to introduce something that can encourage more turnover. Will I bet with Betfair.....No. Do I tell RIB leaders I bet with Betfair........YES. LOL

[Don Corleone]

Completely different models. How can you compare a corporate bookmaker or betting exchange to a tote? A tote relies on takeout percentages to make their money so charging them on turnover is completely different to charging an exchange or corporate bookie. Btw, I'm no fan of corporate bookies so am not sticking up for them - just looking at this objectively. A corporate could turn over for example $1M on a Saturday but actually make a loss. You and NSW say that they should be taxed on the $1M. Certainly not a level playing field given that the tote can not lose. Can't think of anywhere else in life that you can be taxed for making a loss.

Hey mickey, I can think of something else in life where you still get taxed for losing..........Harness Racing. I haven't trained a winner this season and I am still getting taxed. Also...........Death. NZ's Death duty just rose by 15%.............

[mango]

Hi Mickeyh
Go to harnesslinks main page there have been some comments on the Betfair issue, it talks about what the tab pays and what betfair want to pay. Gives a good insight to the difference between the tab and betfair.

[mickeyh]

LOL. Fair point mate!

[buster]

every is forgetting, the tab is bad for punters, betfair is good for punters.

since betfair came to nsw, the tab has introduced the number 1 club rewards, increased race sponsorship, bought the rights to menangle race course and melton as well, had promo days were the take out rate is lower, started offering fixed odds on all gallops and alot more on harness and dogs

[mango]

Hi Buster
Yeah betfair might be good for the punter, but how does that help the people who breed and race the horses it doesn't as they don't pay the same as the tab has to if they did there would be no problem. Go to Harnesslinks home page and read the posts there about betfair and see the difference that they both pay.

[Shakamaker]

And so how will this be good for NZ Harness Racing when Betfair refuse to make any payments to it?

Why should the TAB be required udner legislation to pay $130Million back to the Racing Industry while Betfair can come along and start accepting bets and it pays nothing? Fair? - Hardly!

If Betfair are allowed to continue with their stance of not paying any commission or profit back to NZ Harness Racing, there will be a lot less harness racing in 5 years time for the Punters to bet on.

[buster]

because the tab was handed a monopoly on an industry?

punters dont care if there isnt any racing tomorrow because they can go and play poker, pokies anything at the casino

without punters the breeders and owners would be racing for ribbons

the person bagging betfair on the homepage clearly has no idea how betfair actually operates as a low margin exchange and wouldnt know how to put a bet on - i rekon he could be the ceo of rnsw or hrnz

if you want to bag betfair first go and open an account with them and have a bet on there for a month and then come on here and tell me it isnt the future of racing, dont sook on here repeating the words of the tab ceo

[mango]

Hi Buster
As an owner breeder which i am i don't see why betfair shouldn't have to match the same as the tab, yes the tab has had the monopoly for years but they have also paid a fair price to racing which goes to raising prize money. Question Buster what has betfair done for the racing industry. And why would i want to go bet with betfair when i know nothing is being put back into the industry.

[buster]

betfair currently pay a fee imposed by rnsw in aussie after originally not paying anything
give them time and id imagine nz will come up with the same legislation

it just really annoys me as a punter that the industry wants know nothing about betfair and blame it for dropping turnover and less prizemoney etc etc which are problems that were here long before betfair arrived

without betfair my turnover would lucky to be 1% of what it is now, betfair has created competition to force the tab to work harder and benefit the punter

[mango]

Hi Buster
I agree that it is good for the punter and is good for competition, but prize money will fall as the tab will not be holding as much which means they still pay the same percentage of a lesser amount which in turn means less to the racing industry.

[buster]

thats not exactly the case, it has the ability to boost the number of punters

pools in aussie are still quite small on betfair after a few years and it doesnt look likely to get to the domination it has in the uk

[Shakamaker]

Buster - Answer this

Why is it ok for Betfair to cover NZ Harness Racing and for them not to pay any product fees back to the NZ Racing Industry?

If you were in charge of the NZ TAB, wouldn't you be insisting that you should receive the same treatment as Betfair and not have to pay anything back into the Racing Industry. You could then offer better odds, put more money into customer service, have a better website, build better quality agencies.

But where would that leave the Racing Industry? The Racing Industry would die.

The rules need to be the same for all players in the betting market. Consistent fees need to be paid by all betting outlets/exchanges in order to have real competition. By all means open the market up but make sure that all betting providers are paying a fair fee back to the Industry.

[nat]

These betting companies are like having your kids living at home they eat your food drink your beer watch your TV and laze around in your home ya love having them around but they don’t pay the bills. When Betfair and the like contribute to the ability for industry participants to win back some of their cost through prize money I will give a rats and might even open an account

If these companies don’t contribute back to the industries then do we really need them would we miss them no and why should they use our product for free I am a participant and it cost me annual fees every year just so I can race.

[buster]

yes because the racing industry is just so strong at the moment, its just so easy to be able to get a horse that can win enough money to pay for itself....oh wait, the industry is up the shit and all everyone wants to do is jump up and down and cry about something new, the tab does nothing for the industries betterment, if it was so good and fair like you are all making out then we would be racing for 10k every day

how about someone that actually punts for a living and supplies money back to the industry every day of the year comments on this instead of some harness tragics who just repeat the crap coming out of hrnz board rooms

if the attitude on here to betfair is reflective of nz's general stance then i hope betfair doesnt pay a cent to them, it will teach you to embrace something rather then try and beat it

[buster]

Buster - Answer this

Why is it ok for Betfair to cover NZ Harness Racing and for them not to pay any product fees back to the NZ Racing Industry?

If you were in charge of the NZ TAB, wouldn't you be insisting that you should receive the same treatment as Betfair and not have to pay anything back into the Racing Industry. You could then offer better odds, put more money into customer service, have a better website, build better quality agencies.

But where would that leave the Racing Industry? The Racing Industry would die.

The rules need to be the same for all players in the betting market. Consistent fees need to be paid by all betting outlets/exchanges in order to have real competition. By all means open the market up but make sure that all betting providers are paying a fair fee back to the Industry.

just like the ceo of betfair would want to pay a similar level of gross revenue as the tab does in aussie, which the legislation does not allow for...so who are the rules made to be fair for - the tab? or betfair?

[Shakamaker]

just like the ceo of betfair would want to pay a similar level of gross revenue as the tab does in aussie, which the legislation does not allow for...so who are the rules made to be fair for - the tab? or betfair?

You didn't answer the question.

I repeat - Why is it fair for Betfair to operate on NZ Harness Racing and not to pay any fees back to the NZ Harness Racing Industry?

[Shakamaker]

just like the ceo of betfair would want to pay a similar level of gross revenue as the tab does in aussie, which the legislation does not allow for...so who are the rules made to be fair for - the tab? or betfair?

You need to check your facts. If you knew them you would know that the TAB pays a much higher percentage of gross revenue back to the Racing Industry in Australia than what Betfair has ever offered to pay.

On course bookmakers in Australia pay 1% of their turnover back to the Racing Industry and have gladly done so for years and years. Why then should Betfair and Corporate Bookmakers be excused from paying a similar fee - which happens to be much less than what the TAB pays? And yet Betfair and Corporate Bookmakers refuse to pay this fee and have embarked on a long and bloody legal campaign (which they lost in the NSW Supreme Court last year) to avoid paying a similar fee.

You cant argue with logic. Betfair and anyone else that wants to bet on NZ Harness Racing should be required to pay the same level of fees back to the Harness Racing Industry as what the NZ TAB does. To do otherwise is to provide Betfair and others with a major advantage in the Marketplace to the detriment of owners, trainers, drivers and breeders.

[Shakamaker]

how about someone that actually punts for a living and supplies money back to the industry every day of the year comments on this instead of some harness tragics who just repeat the crap coming out of hrnz board rooms



I don't make a living off the punt but punt regularly enough and have NZ TAB Account, a Victorian TAB account, a NSW TAB account and a Betfair Account to know what I am talking about.

I stopped using the Betfair Account for Racing purposes a few years back because I know too many participants in the Racing Industry that work their backsides off to try and stay in the sport and by betting on Betfair instead of the TAB, I was effectively robbing these participants blind.

[Shakamaker]

if the attitude on here to betfair is reflective of nz's general stance then i hope betfair doesnt pay a cent to them, it will teach you to embrace something rather then try and beat it

Why should the NZ Racing Industry embrace an organisation that uses their product and bluntly refuses to pay any money to it?

Its like embracing a thief into your home and telling them that it is ok for them to sell all of your possessions and advising that they can stay under your roof for as long as they want without paying any rent or board!

[buster]

this just plain wrong, the turnover model means betfair pay a higher percentage of revenue then the tab

read any article about this, no one on either side disputes this

[Shakamaker]

this just plain wrong, the turnover model means betfair pay a higher percentage of revenue then the tab

read any article about this, no one on either side disputes this

Rubbish. Betfair are refusing to pay under both a turnover model and they won't even pay anything under a Gross Profit Model.

If I am a punter and I want to have $100 to win on a particular horse, I have options where I place that bet.

Most TAB's in Australia and NZ are paying product fees back to the Racing Industry at around 30% of Gross Profit. So if I place $100 on a horse with the TAB, $84 on average is returned back to players and $16 is retained. Of this $16, on average around 30% of it ie $4.80 is paid to the Racing Industry in the form of a product fee. The TAB's also provide the Racing Industry with other sources of funding including Programming Fees or profits from Gaming operations etc that on average takes the return to the Racing Industry somewhere up to around 6% of turnover.

Betfair are refusing to pay 1% of turnover in NSW. So if I placed my $100 on Betfair, they are refusing to pay $1 of that back to the Industry.

The most that Betfair have offered to pay the Racing Industry in Australia, (outside of Tasmania) is 10% of gross profits. This is considerably less than what the TAB's are paying.

[buster]

how can we have a discussion if you are making up facts

betfair currently pay 1.5% of turnover to aussie racing, this money is held in trust until the court decisions are ended -FACT
the tab pay around 6% of turnover to aussie racing, this is then reduced by the kickbacks to large punters and coporate bookmakers betting through the tab and then further reduced by a return of around 20 million a year to the tab by the racing industry -FACT this is all evidence in court cases
1.5% of turnover for betfair is 60% of gross revenue -FACT

justice perram in the federal court judgement

I think it is likely – much more likely in fact – that the TAB and RNSW have an in principle understanding or arrangement that the TAB will have the race fields fee refunded to it.

the 1.5% fee on turnover equates to 60% of Betfair’s gross revenue but only 10% of the TAB’s revenue.

[admin]

I agree, of course, that Betfair should make a fair contribution to New Zealand racing. But I'm a little surprised that not many people here are excited to have a new way to bet on racing. A few weeks ago I went to make a $100 bet on a race where a horse was paying $20, only to have that horse drop to $1.80. My mate in Australia was supposed to make the bet for me at the track and didn't end up going, but the horse ended up winning. My point is that had I been able to back the horse early in betfair my return would have been far greater than x times $1.80, instead of going through the Aussie TAB.

Further, with Betfair you can back a horse (or sporting match) at one price then if the price goes down you can lay the bet (bet the opposite outcome) and pocket the difference no matter what the outcome (and vice versa). So if you know what way the market is going to move you can guarantee yourself a profit (obviously this doesn't always work out). Seems to me that the tab system is broken and if Betfair can fix it they should be welcomed provided they give their fair share back.

I should note that there could be a scale problem with Betfair in NZ. It rely's on the interaction of a buyer and a seller to be successful, and I'm not sure if the NZ market is big enough for reasonable prices to be offered. Big sporting events are always well bet, and result in fair and accurate prices being offered, but I'm skeptical that they will be able to get much action on small races throughout the country.

[buster]

good point admin, betfair has a serious advantage for the smaller punter over the tab prices which change after the jump

[Shakamaker]

I agree, of course, that Betfair should make a fair contribution to New Zealand racing. But I'm a little surprised that not many people here are excited to have a new way to bet on racing.

Why would owners, trainers, drivers and breeders be excited when an alternative wagering option comes into the market that refuses to make any payment to the Racing Industry?

Perhaps if Betfair came in and were offering a fair and reasonable produce fee to the Racing Industry, they might get more support from Racing Industry participants.

[buster]

betfair looks after the punter, that is their business.

[admin]

Why would owners, trainers, drivers and breeders be excited when an alternative wagering option comes into the market that refuses to make any payment to the Racing Industry?

Perhaps if Betfair came in and were offering a fair and reasonable produce fee to the Racing Industry, they might get more support from Racing Industry participants.

Fair point, and to be honest I'm not very informed about how much Betfair contributes to the industry overseas or in NZ. I have read a lot of misinformation throughout the years on that and Betfair does get blamed a lot (I'm not saying unfairly as to be honest I don't know). I was just surprised that nobody brought up the betting aspect which is definitely a positive for the punter.

As I said earlier I agree that Betfair, as a prerequisite to being allowed to operate in this market, should give it's fair share back.

I do think (as many of you do) that racing is in trouble and one culprit is the TAB's monopoly - see this post: http://pullthepocket.blogspot.com/20...ice-cream.html

Plus here are Betfair's figures on their contribution to Aussie Racing http://www.factsaboutfunding.com.au/. I don't know how this compares to traditional bookmakers or the NZ market, but they definitely do not get a free ride.

[The Charioteer]

how many of you guys actually use Betfair? and/or understand trading and arbing?

Betfair does not take money from the TAB, in fact it increases turnover on the tote from arbers laying on Betfair and betting back elsewhere.
Especially now that Betfair have the "winners tax" or the Premium Charge as they call it. To avoid it you have to bet back somewhere else.
Betfair attracts a different type of punter who is stay at home and computer/software savvy. These guys may have no interest in trotting
whatsoever, to them it's just another market and the better the liquidity gets the more these guys will get involved. Which is mana from
heaven for those who can do form and price a race efficiently.

So far the liquidity isn't too flash but it's early days. If you can actually pick the winners you will get better than tote odds nearly every race.

[Shakamaker]

Betfair does not take money from the TAB, in fact it increases turnover on the tote from arbers laying on Betfair and betting back elsewhere.


What a load of unsubtantiated rubbish!

If I am a punter without a conscience and only interested in the best possible return for myself and I want to have my $100 to win on Auckland Reactor this Saturday and I look on the NZ TAB and he is paying $2.60 and then I look on Betfair and I can snap up $3.20, where will I place my $100. On Betfair of course.

So don't try this argument that Betfair does not take money away from the Tote and it is all new money garbage etc etc.

And yes I have a Betfair account and yes I understand trading and arbing and have done it all before. Is it good for Racing by not not paying anything back to the Industry. No

[buster]

i heard from HRNZ that betfair was the cause of the new zealand earthquakes