Ballarat Cup

[nat]

Only hours away from a top card at Ballarat cannot wait to see Down Under Muscles race and see how the cup pans out the draws make it interesting and Make Mine Cullen scratched. Ballarat has one of the best cards tonoght for the season with topline trotters and pacers.

[buster]

tough race the cup, not bettin in it

best bet is ronerail

[aussiebreno]

Ill take I Can Doosit and Ronerail to take out the trotting heats.
Cant Bluff Me is the best bet of the night imo. Have had a little bit on him.
In the big one I like Villagem. I've had a look at his sectionals and it seems he would rather run a half in 56 by going 28/28 then run 29/27. With Smoken Up in the race I believe it will be 28/28 type race and Villagem will run over the top. Mister Swinger a place chance.

[buster]

bit of a smokey cant bluff me, very open the pure steel imo

[nat]

That Mister Ali on the Pure steel and good odds not beyond him with a good trip went wel last week in the Shep Cup

[aussiebreno]

Ole Master Lombo has a bit of Smoken Up about him - lose 2 lengths around the final bend but then make it up again in the straight!

[buster]

i think ahmed hit a wheel

[Flashing Red]

Why did Make Mine Cullen scratch?

[buster]

probably sore from racing every week for the last year

[aussiebreno]

Didnt want Cant Bluff Me from the moment Sky started showing vision lol. Good tip RE Thats Mister Ali nat.

[nat]

Anyone can pick a faverite, horses at odds they are the ones I look for and I will wait till they have all the stars alligned

CINCINNATI KID in the cup nice draw if he can get the rail and get cover from Smoken Up mighten win but might place at good odds

[aussiebreno]

Has Villagem hooked on like that before? They'd want to stop that. Smoken Up a bit disapointing, despite the hectic pace. Winner too good on the day but hard to take much out of the race after the first viewing.

[buster]

got a dream run, if he draws the front in hunter cup its all over though

[nat]

Definetly race was made to suite winner no sour grapes though first 2 have been there about in these big races for a while deserved win would had liked Georgetown to have hook out in front of Power Of Tara to see if he's got it. Villagem slaughterd his and Smoken Up's chances, he did look a bit out of control

[triplev123]

What did you guys think of the old school whip shots the winner received inside of the final 16th?

[buster]

against the rules, but i only have a problem with it because i backed power of tara

i think it should be ok to put a few hard ones on them (2 or 3), provided they stop doing it when the horses responds as stunin cullen did or if they horse doesnt respond because its tired

caldow didnt exactly look pretty flogging POT even though he had a rein in each hand

[mango]

Hi Buster
How come each state and n.z havn't got together to work this out once and for all, as i backed stunin cullen i was happy but rules are rules and they should stick to them.

[triplev123]

I'm by no means a handbag, tree hugger, free the battery hens type...far from it...however I truly believe Harness Racing should throw the whips away altogether.
I know that they don't do the wider image of the sport much good and they certainly do nothing by way of initially attracting and hopefully ultimately involving kids and younger people and especially so from outside of the usual avenues of entry.
I've been around horses and Harness Racing since I first learnt to walk so it doesn't make a big an impression on me...I can remember the days of horses coming back with blood streaming down their rumps from those bloody cruel Cane handle whips with the big thick leather cracker on the end that could and would split a horse wide open...so to me today's whips look very innocuous by comparison. However when I've had the chance to take one or both of my daughters along to the races, which is unfortunately not very often, even with today's very much toned down & modified whips and whip rules the girls still get pretty distressed when the drivers lay some solid shots on the horses. I never gave it so much as a 2nd thought until I began to see it through their eyes. When they ask me why are the men hitting the horses like that... I find it hard to give them a justifiable reason. In addition to that I've come to very firmly believe you can get as just much if not more from a horse by shouting at it, making a loud noise, that you can ever get from belting it. Further still, I am certain that taking the sticks away would sort the Wheat from the Chaff in terms of the Drivers. Whip or no Whip, the fact is that horses will just go for some Drivers...the likes of Dexter Dunn, Greg Sugars, Gavin Lang and so on.

[mango]

Good Morning Triplev123
I do hope your making Mrs Triplev123 and your daughters breakfast but don't think for 1 minute that will get you out of taking your sale books on your honeymoon lol. Yes the whip rule can be viewed a lot of different ways but i'll go the other i reckon when a horse hits the straight drivers should be able to cross their reigns and lay a few on them if a horse is in no way a winning chance then the driver is to put the whip away. What do you think of how S.A have their numbers over the horses rump would that be another idea.

[triplev123]

Nah, Sunday morning is Mrs. Triple's Pancake Time!!!! I just make the Coffee. :)
I don't care much for the SA rump number routine at all because it makes the horses look ungainly in their gait, I think it makes them look kind of rear end heavy and clumsy for some reason other other.

[Don Corleone]

Nice win for Stunnin Cullen and Power Of Tara did well. Does Villagem get on it like that normally? I haven't seen it do that before. Smokin Up was dissapointing but I been dissapointed with him before and he has bounced back big time.

[nat]

I'm with you on this one Buster two different styles one correct and one not the correct one looked ascetically to the eye shocking. They should never had changed the rules they should have policed it better, holding both reins one in each hand and using the whip leaves little control IMO. The S.A. whip pads were not a bad idea but at the end of the day their use made the horses look like they were getting flogged and thats what its all about now pleasing the Animal Welfare Lobbys

[buster]

Hi Buster
How come each state and n.z havn't got together to work this out once and for all, as i backed stunin cullen i was happy but rules are rules and they should stick to them.

because that would make too much sense

[buster]

whips are needed but they shouldnt be used to compensate for poorly driven or conditioned horses which they often are...

its simple really, 1 rule for all of aus, 1 rule for protests, 1 rule for driver fines and suspensions = no excuses or misinformation

[triplev123]

Got it in one there Buster.
They do indeed compensate for poorly driven & poorly conditioned horses, no question whatsoever.
Take them away and those drivers, horses & their trainers will quickly be left with no place to hide.
You say that whips are needed Buster. Why ? Is it a Punter perception thing ?

[buster]

well yes and,
- horses do actually respond to a whip, well 99% of them do and its just when they are out on their feet that they don't and thats when it looks bad to flog them
- i think it looks just as bad to have the reins thrown at them all the way up the straight, they made out of leather or the new synthetic stuff and either way they can leave welts just like a whip

BUT with all that said, i do support the new rules - something had to be done, far too many individuals ruining the entire industry
i think its a massive gee up to say not being able to cross the reins and hit them is dangerous, if you can't steer the horse as you hit them you should hand in your license and let someone else drive

[Flashing Red]

i think its a massive gee up to say not being able to cross the reins and hit them is dangerous, if you can't steer the horse as you hit them you should hand in your license and let someone else drive

I disagree. By not crossing your reins, even a flicking action does not allow you to keep a contact with (well that side) of the horses mouth. Ask any old timer, the people that REALLY know how to drive, how important it is to keep contact with a horses mouth, especially when they are getting tired over the concluding stages. This isn't about whips, it is about safety and many a times a horse has been help up by a good hold of their heads to balance them. You can keep an even and good hold of a horses mouth with the lines in one hand. You can't if you have to hit them while holding the rein at the same time. Plus it hits the horse in the mouth.

Without mentioning names, there are many drivers, including some well known drivers, that practice the loose-reins-flopping-everywhere-urging-in-the-home-straight and not only is it disgraceful, but dangerous. Loose lining is unsafe not just going at speed, but also at jog tempo.

And Triple V - whips ARE needed. I can't believe this, but I have been on 3 different forums this weekend and this same conversation has cropped up! I have some that don't need a whip - these horses will race others even on jog days! They are just unbelievably competitive. I have others that you need to carry one, you raise it and "show" it to them and that is all they would need (for the record, if I was a horse I'd been one of these!!). And then I have had others that literally won't go without one, or went from doing good things to great things by getting a few decent ones on his backside. Flashing Red for example was a great, great, trier, but he just found that extra something when you thought he was down and out with a couple of good ones on his backside. Yeah it's not nice, but when you need purse earnings to put food on the table, if you have to cause them a little pain, so be it. And they get looked after so well each and every day. It isn't much of a trade off do you think?

One place I worked with, huge welts were left on the horses after they raced sometimes. It really use to upset me, to the point I was in tears. I don't like horses being abused. But when I found myself in a position a couple of years ago where purse money literally puts your food on the table, funny thing was I never watched how many times my horses got hit in races or how hard etc.

The old rules weren't regulated and when they changed it to not crossing your reins that was silly too. I think they have struck the right balance now. :) IMHO :)

[Mighty Atom]

Most horses know what is required of them when you draw the whip much the same way as when they here the bell lap coming up-down to business.A couple of light flicks usually does the trick. This is what I have found with the horses I have driven.However many Years ago when I first attended the trots over here in the west,I distinctly remember 2 horses that were hit with the whip from start to finish(they were both very good horses and I can still remember their names).Rightly so this would be regarded as extreme cruelty today and would not be tolerated.These two horses wouldn't even try unless driven as such but they were an exception rather than the norm.

[buster]

the old horsemen that 'really' know how to drive a horse? the same ones that used the canes? if you need to cross the reins to hit a horse that hard then you can't feel its mouth, because its already OFF THE BIT

i couldnt give a crap about these old horsemen, give me dean braun any day of the week

[buster]

mighty atom - spot on you only need to let them know its time to get serious

[justdoit]

Hi Buster,
I'm with you on this one, the so called great men of the past haha lets show footage of the old races to promote harness racing. It would be the end of the industry as we know it.
Flashing Red if your repeat your reply to Triplev123 harness racing is finished. Could you really expect anyone to listen to what you wrote:
Flashing Red for example was a great, great, trier, but he just found that extra something when you thought he was down and out with a couple of good ones on his backside. Yeah it's not nice, but when you need purse earnings to put food on the table, if you have to cause them a little pain, so be it. And they get looked after so well each and every day. It isn't much of a trade off do you think?
Yes sir I only hit her once a week, but I let her sleep inside and feed her really well. Not funny and hopefully you are not serious.

[aussiebreno]

Stay losing Justdoit! There is no doubt in my mind horses can (can being key word) find 2 or 3 lengths. Whip must stay. Drivers not only hate long whips because of the action and lack of control but it actually looks worse on TV. The close ups at Menangle when they turn for home (as an example) where the whips arent even cracking look bad because the whips are so long and high up in the air.
Lets the drivers have a cracker whip (just dont let the RSPCA know) but only let drivers hit the horses 5 times! The do-gooders will see only 5 hits with the whip and be happy, the whip if used at the right time/s by the driver will be useful and the drivers will be happy with the control of the horse.

[justdoit]

Hi Aussiebreno,
It's not about winning or losing it is about the public's perception of the sport, and so we agree:) IMO

[aussiebreno]

Public perception of the sport hey. Yep, let those not involved who dont give a dime to the industry control us. LOL

[Flashing Red]

the old horsemen that 'really' know how to drive a horse? the same ones that used the canes? if you need to cross the reins to hit a horse that hard then you can't feel its mouth, because its already OFF THE BIT

i couldnt give a crap about these old horsemen, give me dean braun any day of the week

I don't agree with the whip useage of the past. I have a hard time watching old footage. But, unlike some of the people that are given driving licences today, they could DRIVE.

You have also missed my point re crossing the reins. Re-read my post again, it is not about being able to hit a horse harder. It is about keeping contact with the horses mouth. You are also incorrect in your belief that if they aren't carrying you along they are off the bit, whether lines in one hand or not. Those horses that travel and feel like they are "taking" you with them are very nice to drive. But not all horses are like that. Granted those horses are easier to keep a hold of. But some of them always have a light contact, even if they are full of running. And it does not necessarily have anything to do with ability. I've driven a former FFA horse that a 3yo child could have driven. He was very quiet, only had a light contact. And then, my personal favourite horse ever, felt like you were trying to contain a steam train, whether jogging or at the end of a 2 mile fast work. He just "took" you with him. You gave your lines an inch and he would increase his speed. You could have layed your lines on the dust sheet with the first horse and he still would have mosied along at the same speed. He didn't "take" you with him. Yet he was a far better horse to the claimer. And it had nothing to do with how "tired" he was.

[Flashing Red]

Hi Buster,
I'm with you on this one, the so called great men of the past haha lets show footage of the old races to promote harness racing. It would be the end of the industry as we know it.
Flashing Red if your repeat your reply to Triplev123 harness racing is finished. Could you really expect anyone to listen to what you wrote:
Flashing Red for example was a great, great, trier, but he just found that extra something when you thought he was down and out with a couple of good ones on his backside. Yeah it's not nice, but when you need purse earnings to put food on the table, if you have to cause them a little pain, so be it. And they get looked after so well each and every day. It isn't much of a trade off do you think?
Yes sir I only hit her once a week, but I let her sleep inside and feed her really well. Not funny and hopefully you are not serious.

I did mean what I said, 100%. We need the whip and some horses need to get hit. Period. I couple of wacks on the backside in the trade for the best feed, care and vetinary attention money can buy is a small price to pay. I suppose some of those equestrian people that don't feed and worm their horses, their horses are unshod and uncared for in their bare paddocks - they have a better life do they? I mean if they are "loved", is that all that matters? Why don't you go to a Pony Club muster on Sunday and see kids, on their beloved little ponies, beat the crap out of them to make them go around the barrels faster. Is that OK because they get loves and carrots during the week?

And for the record, your beloved PETA don't even want people to have RIDING horses. That's right. Not only are they anti-racing but they are anti-equestrian too. I cannot stand animal activists. And I am one of the biggest animal lovers around!

I hated when people were allowed to pull their whips right back - it was disgusting. But I see no problem with the elbow-wrist action currently allowed, if it is only in the home straight. And I think whips are being policed a lot tougher than even 5 years ago. And so it should be. I have personally told drivers not to hit horses if they don't need it (or, even worse, they stop if hit!). But I have also personally worked with some that need one or two at the top of the straight. Karloo Mick, as an example, is one of these horses. No-one would argue that Mick isn't loved by Barry - he's his pet!

[Flashing Red]

I would also like to add that I have tried to get the old "numbers on the rump" (a la SA style) as an optional piece of gear but to no avail. I would put them on everything if allowed :) Like I said, those that know me personally know how much I really don't like whips, but over the years I have realised that they are necessary. Ask me 5 years ago if I thought they should have been banned, I would have said yes. But not now.

[justdoit]

Hi Flashing Red,
Your sentence if you have to cause them a little pain, so be it. And they get looked after so well each and every day. It isn't much of a trade off do you think?
If that was harness racing's line on the use of the whip, IMO it would have a very negative impact on the future popularity of the sport.
The majority of horse people would understand what you wrote as I do:), the only problem is that the majority are not horse people and for the sport to grow in the
future the product needs to be as clean and tidy as possible.
I have no problem with the direction racing is heading with the use of the whip and your proposal for the "numbers on the rump" (a la SA style) is great and should be in place
Australia wide lets start making some noise with the help of HarnessLink.

Hi aussiebreno,
It's not about who's in control, it's more to do with getting new participants and getting their dimes.:)

"If we had a keen vision and feeling of all ordinary human life, it would be like hearing the grass grow and the squirrel's heart beat, and we should die of that roar which lies on the other side of silence. As it is, the best of us walk about well wadded with........."

[mango]

Hi Justdoit
Yes the whip does give a bad perception to some viewers but as a gentleman told me last night it is a tool of the trade. He has broken in over 1000 horses and he said some horses won't go without the whip, he also said when breaking in a yearling he always carries a whip not to hit them but to tap them to help get them to go in the direction that he wants them to go in and without the whip he said you would have a lot of bad mannered, no mouth horses. He agreed that the whip rule change was a good idea but he would like to see drivers been able to cross their reigns only in the home straight as he believes the driver hasn't got as much controll whilst whipping with the reign in his hand and that also looks worse at times when whipping a horse due to the reign flapping around. He said he would love to see the people that want the whip banned all together take a 2yr old out on the track and see how they go.

[BenScadden]

I reckon it's inevitable one day that whips will be totally banned. Maybe it won't happen for another 50 years ... but I think it will happen eventually. When it does, those horses that don't respond without the use of a whip will struggle. I guess it's a sort of forced evolution of the racing game. It may seem a crazy concept now but the industry will adapt, just as it has with other changes.

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red,
Your sentence if you have to cause them a little pain, so be it. And they get looked after so well each and every day. It isn't much of a trade off do you think?
If that was harness racing's line on the use of the whip, IMO it would have a very negative impact on the future popularity of the sport.
The majority of horse people would understand what you wrote as I do:), the only problem is that the majority are not horse people and for the sport to grow in the
future the product needs to be as clean and tidy as possible.
I have no problem with the direction racing is heading with the use of the whip and your proposal for the "numbers on the rump" (a la SA style) is great and should be in place
Australia wide lets start making some noise with the help of HarnessLink.

Hi aussiebreno,
It's not about who's in control, it's more to do with getting new participants and getting their dimes.:)

"If we had a keen vision and feeling of all ordinary human life, it would be like hearing the grass grow and the squirrel's heart beat, and we should die of that roar which lies on the other side of silence. As it is, the best of us walk about well wadded with........."

Re-reading it, a non-horsey person probably wouldn't understood my quote and I guess it can come across a little negative. You are right it can be said in a much better way. You would also think after 3.5 years at uni I could be a little more diplomatic. Thanks for explaining :)

[Flashing Red]

I reckon it's inevitable one day that whips will be totally banned. Maybe it won't happen for another 50 years ... but I think it will happen eventually. When it does, those horses that don't respond without the use of a whip will struggle. I guess it's a sort of forced evolution of the racing game. It may seem a crazy concept now but the industry will adapt, just as it has with other changes.

I agree this will happen also, and that those horses who do need a lot of encouragement just won't progress. I guess it is inevitable. :)

[justdoit]

Hi Flashing Red,
Could they program a race that had no whips to be carried?
Do you think they would get entries, or have bonus money for 1,2,3,4 for not carrying a whip.

Hi BenScadden, No whipping-It's heading that way and the stewards not enforcing the rules will make it happen sooner:)

[triplev123]

One of the most interesting observations about whips and their application with young horses, and more specifically with 2yos, I've ever heard came from what was for me at the time a bit of an unexpected source, namely Michael Doltoff...though when I thought about it afterwards he has had his fair share of good and sometimes very,very good juveniles & what he said makes absolutely perfect sense. He said that if he has to carry a whip on the training track with his youngsters then he takes that to mean they're physically/mentally not ready to go as 2yos and he'd stop right there with them and move on to another horse.

[aussiebreno]

One of the most interesting observations about whips and their application with young horses, and more specifically with 2yos, I've ever heard came from what was for me at the time a bit of an unexpected source, namely Michael Doltoff...though when I thought about it afterwards he has had his fair share of good and sometimes very,very good juveniles & what he said makes absolutely perfect sense. He said that if he has to carry a whip on the training track with his youngsters then he takes that to mean they're physically/mentally not ready to go as 2yos and he'd stop right there with them and move on to another horse.
Exaxtly, he has had some very, very good juveniles. He doesnt stuff around with ones that might only be average - and he has money behind him meaning he can let the average ones have more time. But for the hundreds of bread and butter hobby trainers its a different story would you agree triplev?

[buster]

m doltoff is the biggest basher of a horse going and a sh!t talker...plus the horses aren't in his name due to drug offences....not exactly a role model

[triplev123]

All of that may or may not be the case Buster, you have me at a disadvantage because I don't know the bloke at all, have never spoken to him. Recognise him by sight & that's it. Apparently you know him much better than I do. Nevertheless, what he said about needing a whip to get youngsters to put in on the training track made absolutely perfect sense to me and those words would have made no more sense had they come from the lips of Billy Haughton or Stanley Dancer. The best juveniles don't need their arses cut off in order to produce their best. Instead, they get out there and do it all on their own for the love of it. I'm yet to see a really good 2yo that needed a Samurai in the bike to keep it interested and going forward.

[Don Corleone]

To me a whip is no different than any other peice of gear I have on a horse, it's there as a aid. Like every other peice of gear I have on a horse, if the horse doesn't like it or it's hurting him - take it off. To those that know me you'll know all my horse's have open bridles, mostly no boots and snaffle bit only.

[triplev123]

I'd agree with that Don. The problem is that some use them for more than aid. A Trainer I know is given to saying "You can learn something even from the worst Trainer to have ever thad a horse, even if it is what not to do". Open Bridles, no boots and snaffles. Love it.