dartmoor

[buster]

i hope they wear radioactive suits when they swab it

[triplev123]

That's a bit harsh Buster. I thought he was a graded certainty in that one, a hard knocking old M6 in against largely out of form come moderate form M1's, M2's and M3's. Hope you got a piece of the $6.10. ;)

[buster]

coming from last at the 300m? easy to say after the race

[Flashing Red]

That's a bit harsh Buster. I thought he was a graded certainty in that one, a hard knocking old M6 in against largely out of form come moderate form M1's, M2's and M3's. Hope you got a piece of the $6.10. ;)

I agree with Triple V. That class is a lot easier than a FFA...

[triplev123]

Not really Buster. That horse is a fair bit better than his recent form line suggests. Don't forget that in 6 of his previous 8 outings up in QLD he has gone around in Standing Start events over 2138m while coming off 20m & 30m handicaps every time. Down to Sydney and last start (his 1st for D. Thorn) over the 2300m he was held up for a completely clear shot at them & was only beaten 2m or so with a similarly slippery final quarter. This time out he is back to the Mile and he again unloads a similar charge from inside the quarter but gets clear air all the way to the line, thus he paces his own last half in the low 55's, might even have gone a shade under that. Compare that to last time out when he paced his last half in the high 55's/low 56's,... despite having difficulty clearing the fading cover at the top of the straight. The difference between tonight and January 18th's outing is that he got an unimpeded shot at them tonight.

[buster]

you cant measure the horses form against its own

the horse is in for a 20k claim, he must be low flying...

[nat]

I would say a well placed horse easy kill against horses well below his class, $20,000 claim on a 9yld got them the drop in class and if someone is willing to part $20,000 (highly unlikely) your a winner anyway.

Once you get past M4 the class rise is a hard step each week if your horse is on the edge of this class its hard to get a win and well placed claimers are the only way to make money you mightn't want to loose the horse so you put ridicules prices on them

[buster]

as i already said, it looks a good class drop...AFTER THE RACE, he was 6.1 on the tote so obviously someone thought he wasn't a moral as everyone on here apparently knew he was

[Flashing Red]

I didn't think he was a moral nor do I bet. :) I know he was racing (and doing well against) some nice midweek FFAers here... I have always liked the claiming system in NSW, I really think it gives claimers a huge advantage, more so than other states like Qld and Vic. :) Perhaps I have misunderstood you - you sounded surprised that he won. Looking at the fields today I thought he was nicely placed (from knowing him in Qld). While no certainy I wouldn't have thought it surprising if he won either due to drop in class?? This is not tooting my horn after the fact but rather an explanation.... :)

[triplev123]

G'day Buster,

I'm not comparing the horse's form against himself, rather I'm noting that in 6 of his last 8 starts he was placed in what I see as having been largely unsuitable races /unsuitable conditions, i.e. standing starts over 2138m and coming off marks of 20m & 30m to boot.
From those marks against those horses over that distance, he basically had no chance of winning, the best he could do was fill a place.
Prior to those it's also worth noting that he was in against FFA company and there he was racing pretty well but again without winning, knocking heads with Black's A Fake in the process.
Go back a ways further and he's over in WA and in against I'm Themightyquinn, Alzona & Co in the Freemantle Cup and he finishes a couple of meters 3rd off a 56 & a piece last half at the end of a punishing 2900+m.
Fast Forward to last week and then again last and he's back to a couple of genuinely run mobile events & it's no great surprise that he shows what he can do in both events when placed to advantage.
The Americans have a very good term for all this...they call it 'back class' and last night Dartmoor was the Poster Boy for 'back class'.
It didn't make him a moral last night nor last week when he probably would also have won first up for the new stable only for being hampered turning into the stretch. I don't think that there is such a thing as a moral anywhere in racing full-stop...but as I said, I thought he was a graded certainty, that meaning with all things being equal, given his resume and the current form/quality his opposition, he was a pretty good chance to win it & so it didn't surprise me at all that he did. Unfortunately I can't think of the fella's name right now but a well known US Trainer from years ago was given to say something along the lines of "Keep yourself in the best of company and your horses in the worst". Of course, those weren't bad horses he faced last night, rather they were just not as strong as the crew he has been in against in the last 12+ months. Very much to his credit David Thorn found a niche and the horse could be competitive again, the NSW Claiming System with it's M1-2-3 grade horses also eligible M4+ with a Claiming Price of $X conditons attached.
Those races probably should be ringing the Dinner Bell all throughout Oz for the Owners of every horse that's currently in a similar position to that which Dartmoor found himself in. I'm not trying to be the Sage after the event Buster, merely explaining that he won not because he was 'enhanced' as you initially suggested, but because he was exceptionally well placed.

[DAZZA]

Slick Shandon in the same category. Low price claimer at redcliffe one week. Wins two races in town once claimed one of those running home in 26.1. Thorn has a reputation for getting horses that are "on they're mark" coming to his stable and all of a sudden growing a leg. Horse has the ability obvioulsy, hes a M6. Good training effort.

[Mighty Atom]

Hi triplev 123, don't know the name of the American trainer who said "keep yourself in the best company and your horses in the worst",but I have heard a Mr J.B.Cummings say it a few times. I have seen 'Dartmoor' race over here in the west and he was quite competitive against some pretty good horses.If his trainer could get him back to something near that form he could quite easily account for the field he was in.

[triplev123]

The opening stanza of this thread reflects something that unfortunately lurks just beneath the surface in the Harness Racing Industry.
Struggle to run a place or win a race only once in a Blue Moon and 'eat the paint off the walls' starve for the rest of the time and you'll be widely considered to be 'a good bloke'.
Start winning a few now and again and people will generally still be happy that your luck has changed.
Win races on a regular basis with a number of different horses across various age groups & classes and sadly, for some you'll very quickly morph from a good bloke to being one of the biggest bastard that God ever put breath into and there'll be dark conspiracies put about that you 'must be using something'.
Buster, I've been thinking about this on and off today and you owe David Thorn an apology.

[Flashing Red]

Win races on a regular basis with a number of different horses across various age groups & classes and sadly, for some you'll very quickly morph from a good bloke to being one of the biggest bastard that God ever put breath into and there'll be dark conspiracies put about that you 'must be using someting'.

(This is not in reference to anyone or any post)
Sad, but true. This was pointed out to me when I first started in the industry and it is applicable globally, believe you me! :(

[buster]

ill be right

everyone said the same when i bagged the russo team.....two positive swabs later

[aussiebreno]

ill be right

everyone said the same when i bagged the russo team.....two positive swabs later
Whereas everyone I was around said yes they must be using something!

[buster]

same situation for thorn

[aussiebreno]

same situation for thorn

Did you see Gotta Feeling return to form the other week.

[triplev123]

G'day Buster,

You don't realise just how far wrong you are mate. To put my money where my mouth is, Dinner on me at the restaurant of your choice if David's stable pulls a positive for anything in the next 12 months. Should that period expire with no such transgression recorded on his part, your obligation is simply to buy him the BEST bottle of Bourbon available, to give it to him personally and whilst doing so to ask for his forgiveness. He's a pretty charitable fella. I'm sure he'll let you off the hook. I can't be any fairer than that.

[buster]

you dont have to get a positive swab to be using something enhancing.....

[triplev123]

See...now that sort of comment is the last refuge of scoundrels Buster.
Are you up for the wager... or not?
It's not like I stand to gain anything from any of it, in fact I'm on a hiding to nothing.
Best case scenario for me is that you buy someone else a snazzy bottle of Kentucky's finest and throw yourself on the mercy of the Court...so to speak.
Worst case is that I have to shell out for your nosebag session.
Hmmmmm.
I sense that a further sweetener is required.
How's this then?
If you're right then not only is it dinner on me but I drop my dacks in the middle of Pitt St Mall on Friday at lunchtime and sing 'Hey Big Spender' by Shirley Bassey.
Shop around, I'm telling you here and now...you will not beat that offer.

[buster]

i can guarantee i have more info on this than you.... still want the bet?

[Flashing Red]

I don't think this is an appropriate conversation for a public internet forum? No matter what ones personal belief is, referring or inferring that someone is using enhancements on their horses... on a public forum... not good... sometimes even those with the best intentions can be wrong. And it isn't hard to trace IPs. :(

[triplev123]

Indeed. The VERY 1ST post to this thread wasn't appropriate Flashing, hence the reason that I took issue with it and increasingly so up to this point.
Buster, you asked me if I still want to make that bet? My answer to that is...ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY!
I'm only guessing but I'd say that a bottle of Maker's Mark should suffice. I'm letting you know so that should you see it on special you can avail yourself of a purchase in advance.

[Mighty Atom]

:confused:Come on Everyone,don't think for one moment that if someone can gain an upper hand in this cut throat costly sport they wont take it.When you see trainers turning mediocre performers into multiple winners,not just one or two but most of the stable you have to ask.Whats going on? Back in the 80's with the analyst's stating we are now able to detect this drug and that (etorphine & palfium being two) it was mind boggling.Then came the saline drenches which many feared was a masking agent for something else.It doesn't matter what sport it is be it professional road cycling, track cycling,athletics etc.if there is a chance to get away with it they will take the risk.It has always been being able to keep one step ahead of the analyst.The one thing today,that does put my mind at ease is the freezing of swabs to be re-analyzed in a few years down the track. this has gone a long way to cleaning racing up.

[buster]

if they have only just started testing for a several drugs in the tour de france and olympics, what hope has the horse labs of testing for them

[triplev123]

Placing the aspect of wrongdoing aside for a moment, take a moment to consider the basic economics of what you're suggesting.
By default you're saying that the prizemoney in Harness Racing is so lucrative that those out there who may wish to take a walk on the wildside can make a money in money out case for using a series of expensive designer drugs in order to hoodwink the current testing procedures and make off with the loot?
C'mon now Buster. If they were going for 20k+ every time they stepped out then you might have something...but considering the costs and the difficulty there would be in procuring courses of these cutting edge human drugs so as to be co-opted for use in horse racing, total purses of $5,000 just isn't going to cut it.

[aussiebreno]

Placing the aspect of wrongdoing aside for a moment, take a moment to consider the basic economics of what you're suggesting.
By default you're saying that the prizemoney in Harness Racing is so lucrative that those out there who may wish to take a walk on the wildside can make a money in money out case for using a series of expensive designer drugs in order to hoodwink the current testing procedures and make off with the loot?
C'mon now Buster. If they were going for 20k+ every time they stepped out then you might have something...but considering the costs and the difficulty there would be in procuring courses of these cutting edge human drugs so as to be co-opted for use in horse racing, total purses of $5,000 just isn't going to cut it.
You know a bit about this mate???

[buster]

whats the most expensive performance enhancing drug around? epo, already had positive swabs to it and probably more if it didnt cost so much to test for

bicarb is obviously the cheapest most effective and your allowed to have it, very handy stuff if you get the timing right

pretty easy to back a horse to win 10k at any meeting in vic and metro regions in nsw, so all of a sudden you are racing in a 20k race


plus theres the future bonus of the better horses that will end up in your stable

[triplev123]

G'day Buster,

You're moving the goal posts around on me.
First it was new & previously undetectable drugs in the Frog Bike Rides and that travelling corrupt ridden sham known as the modern day Olympics, now it's old school 'the needy and the greedy' stuff like Bi-carb and EPO. Which is it?
If you had unlimited funds and reliable access and if you really wanted to be a villain and sought to use something that would light them up that nobody has a test for...then I'm sure there are numerous options available other than old school stuff like EPO or easily detected Prehistoric acid buffers like Bicarb or stimulants like Caffiene or NSAID's like Bute etc etc.
The problem is that just like DVD Players or Wide Screen TV's initially such high tech options come at an extremely high/inflated price, and so in the case of our Industry one that is going to be largely unsustainable given the basic economics of the majority of Harness Racing in this country. No doubt the arse fell out of the black market EPO price when a conclusive test became available (& those tests have become increasingly cheaper over time) and things moved on to other areas.
For a good example, if you happen to read Medical & Scientific Journals & such you'll have noted the release of a whole new class of cardio vascular type drugs that come with aranesp like qualities. Their nature is such that a bankable test for it in equines will not become available at any time into the forseeable future, if at all.
These new drugs are the result of some rather wonderful research and a very different way of looking at and treating human ailments, one that does not have the risks associated with EPO and its derivitives/relatives/offspring. They are also so far out over the cutting edge of their own field...let alone that of the current testing regimes for equines...that they make virtually all other drugs previously in the cross hairs for use in such circumstances look like Cello Players in Marching Bands. As I said before, villainy and wrongdoing aside, I simply doubt that anyone has the access to nor do they have the considerable $$$ required to plonk down for such drugs to then turn around and use them on a horse with 5k stakes and the expectation of 10k on the Punt. That's not to say that someone, somewhere in the World is not doing so already, just that given the economic constraints of racing I very, very much doubt it is happening here.

[Flashing Red]

G'day Buster,

You're moving the goal posts around on me.
First it was new & previously undetectable drugs in the Frog Bike Rides and that travelling corrupt ridden sham known as the modern day Olympics, now it's old school 'the needy and the greedy' stuff like Bi-carb and EPO. Which is it?
If you had unlimited funds and relaibale access and if you really wanted to be a villain and sought to use something that would light them up that nobody has a test for...then I'm sure there are numerous options available other than old school stuff like EPO or easily detected Prehistoric acid buffers like Bicarb or stimulants like Caffiene or NSAID's like Bute etc etc.
The problem is that just like DVD Players or Wide Screen TV's initially such high tech options come at an extremely high/inflated price, and so in the case of our Industry one that is going to be largely unsustainable given the basic economics of the majority of Harness Racing in this country. No doubt the arse fell out of the black market EPO price when a conclusive test became available (& those tests have become increasingly cheaper over time) and things moved on to other areas.
For a good example, if you happen to read Medical & Scientific Journals & such you'll have noted the release of a whole new class of cardio vascular type drugs that come with aranesp like qualities. Their nature is such that a bankable test for it in equines will not become available at any time into the forseeable future, if at all.
These new drugs are the result of some rather wonderful research and a very different way of looking at and treating human ailments, one that does not have the risks associated with EPO and its derivitives/relatives/offspring. They are also so far out over the cutting edge of their own field...let alone that of the current testing regimes for equines...that they make virtually all other drugs previously in the cross hairs for use in such circumstances look like Cello Players in Marching Bands. As I said before, villainy and wrongdoing aside, I simply doubt that anyone has the access to nor do they have the considerable $$$ required to plonk down for such drugs to then turn around and use them on a horse with 5k stakes and the expectation of 10k on the Punt. That's not to say that someone, somewhere in the World is not doing so already, just that given the economic constraints of racing I very, very much doubt it is happening here.

I agree with the bolded. :)

[buster]

well what was happening with the royal flush team than? got a positive swab for exactly what you say isnt done

and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing

i dont personally know whats in the drenchs being supplied by the american but it obviously helps but has made a couple of horses recently very very sick

ps - i think the posts on the main harnesslink site show that im not the only one with the same issues with these stables

[Flashing Red]

and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing

On a side note, you can nip that in the bud with post race TC02 testing. :) Post race TC02 testing is sporadic here to say the least - yet when it is done, a la blitz style that some states employ for a few weeks, it stops a number of trainers in their tracks (and almost always ends up in a couple of positives). Why not do it all the time? In America they sometimes "specialed" you, which meant that 2 hours after the race your horse was tested again for the TC02 level. You never knew when you were going to be specialed (normally only winners, but sometimes others if their horses got beat as odds on pops, for example). It was a great way to nip bi-carbing in the bud. But in Australia we can't seem to get post race TC02 (and I mean extended post race, like 1.5-2 hours) in full and regular swing. Wish they would!!

[aussiebreno]

On a side note, you can nip that in the bud with post race TC02 testing. :) Post race TC02 testing is sporadic here to say the least - yet when it is done, a la blitz style that some states employ for a few weeks, it stops a number of trainers in their tracks (and almost always ends up in a couple of positives). Why not do it all the time? In America they sometimes "specialed" you, which meant that 2 hours after the race your horse was tested again for the TC02 level. You never knew when you were going to be specialed (normally only winners, but sometimes others if their horses got beat as odds on pops, for example). It was a great way to nip bi-carbing in the bud. But in Australia we can't seem to get post race TC02 (and I mean extended post race, like 1.5-2 hours) in full and regular swing. Wish they would!!
EDIT: Scratch that, things might get heated.

[buster]

they have done it a few times in sydney to specific stables, and after the breeders crown last year they did it to tonkin

[Flashing Red]

Later on you hint at knowledge of a new class of cardio drug that is undetectable with EPO like effects. So I guess you do alot of research and/or are well networked.
The statistics show that David Thorns stable has improved significantly. I guess that he's dramatically changed something?
I'm just trying to understand some of this.... Can we then say that with your relationship with David Thorn and understanding of new undetectable drugs then David Thorn could be using a new undetectable cardio drug with EPO like effects?

Thank you for being diplomatic. :)
But I disagree with the strategy of your attack. There are many online medical journals, for both humans and animals, even just horses, that run laboratory tests and publish their findings. They are not doing this to find an "edge" in racing. They are doing this for scientific research soley. You do not have to subscribe to the journal, you can purchase articles of interest online. A mere google search can find new drugs that the Olympic committee are testing for. Indeed, did not Harnesslink publish an article on 2 used but currently not tested for drugs in Canada/America? Triplev's comments cannot be construed as "inside" information - what he re-iterated in his post is pretty much easily confirmed online. :) Maybe not in relation to horses, but to human athletes. It does not require one to be well researched OR closely connected to a stable. :)

EDIT - this is my last post on this thread. Its contents are making me really uncomfortable.

[justdoit]

Hi Flashing Red,
You unlike most of us are standing directly in front of someone and letting them know that you are going to punch them in the face, we(un-named)are more the king hit from behind type of people:)
A very touchy subject.

[triplev123]

Originally Posted by racefair
Later on you hint at knowledge of a new class of cardio drug that is undetectable with EPO like effects. So I guess you do alot of research and/or are well networked.
The statistics show that David Thorns stable has improved significantly. I guess that he's dramatically changed something?
I'm just trying to understand some of this.... Can we then say that with your relationship with David Thorn and understanding of new undetectable drugs then David Thorn could be using a new undetectable cardio drug with EPO like effects?
--------------------------------

No, you're not trying to understand some of this at all. Can we then say...indeed. Cheap shot. Cheap, cheap shot. You should be ashamed of yourself for inferring such things about David Thorn and also about myself. I'd have thought you were old enough to know better. Obviously not.

[triplev123]

Buster, by way of taking a lead from Flashing this will be my last post to this thread...but not before I state a few facts.

Comments thus far by yourself have indicated to me that you do not have a particularly good understanding of that which you are banging on about, that which you initially sought to hang David Thorn for. I've started off by explaining to you why I thought Dartmoor raced the way he did the other day and you've stuck to your guns and ignored that, ignoring the obvious back class the horse has combined with him being placed to significant advantage as being the reason for his efforts at his last two starts and specially so his recent win. I thought you were a Punter? A student of horses and of form?

You've then continued the initial inference of wrongdoing by posting...quote “if they have only just started testing for a several drugs in the tour de france and olympics, what hope has the horse labs of testing for them” end quote.............. to which I replied that even if you placed the wrongdoing aspect of it all aside, the economics and ease of access aspects of it all make it simply impossible.

You then replied quote “whats the most expensive performance enhancing drug around? epo, already had positive swabs to it and probably more if it didnt cost so much to test for bicarb is obviously the cheapest most effective and your allowed to have it, very handy stuff if you get the timing right”...to which I replied by explaining to you why EPO and Bi-Card are so old school as to be non factors as undetectable enhancements.

Undaunted you've commented...quote “well what was happening with the royal flush team than? got a positive swab for exactly what you say isnt done” which is where your comprehension of what was written/typed has failed you. That incident was back in May & June of 2009 if memory serves me correctly, some 18months ago (?) and I did not say it wasn’t being done now, I said that given how easily detectable EPO has become that it was being done by the needy and the greedy and that those seeking an edge had long ago moved on. Christ, the ORC were testing for EPO back in early 2008. Things have moved on. It's like an HQ Holden being compared to a current model Statesman. On that score, for your own edification when you get a chance Buster, google substances such as Aranesp & Mircera and have a read about them and their qualities.
Consider development wise how far down the line they are from the original EPO...then take a mental leap ahead from there and that’ll just about clear the cutting edge in that field. The amount of $$$$ being poured into this & related fields in response to Human Kidney & Heart disease, Cancer treatments and so on is just incredible and as I alluded to when outlining that new class drugs I mentioned before, They are also so far out over the cutting edge of their own field...let alone that of the current testing regimes for equines...that they make virtually all other drugs previously in the cross hairs for use in such circumstances look like Cello Players in Marching Bands.

Then you’ve followed up the above with quote " and ill say again bi carb is easily used by any simpleton and doesnt show a positive if your drench is given with the right timing" end quote. Now whilst holding a modicum of truth by way of referencing timing (given there is not a standing post race TC02 testing regime in place, something which Flashing has also quite rightly pointed out) nevertheless shows a lack of knowledge of the subject because said ‘right timing’ is not a feat that is to be left to the application abilities of a simpleton. Over the years I’ve seen some very savvy Vets and well clued in Trainers get caught out badly when messing around with such things.
For a variety of reasons anyone who saw fit to routinely use bi-card drenches would have to be extremely clever in their application & be extremely lucky with their timing and with the possible adverse influences exerted on their horses by both internal and external factors in order for them to get away with such behaviour over an extended period of time with a lot of horses.

Buster, I've gone over it and over it and over it again and again and again and looked at it from dozens and dozens of different angles and while it would be foolish of anyone to believe that there is no chemical enhancement occurring in racing I would still be prepared to stand in the Dock and swear upon a stack of Bibles that it is being emploted to nowhere near the levels that the trackside scuttlebutt would have us believe. Nowhere near it.
Further to this and by of explaining the ever present allegations aimed at one stable or another, I don't think many people fully appreciate just how many horsemen/horsewomen there are out there that could not train a rampant Choko Vine to grow over the top of an out-door dunny. That some horses can & do improve & that some will improve dramatically given a change of stable, of their feeding, training & racing regimes probably should not come as a big a surprise to some as it currently does. Such improvements are not automatically assignable to nefarious behaviour.

Here ends today’s sermon, once and for all.

[buster]

i didnt read most of that post, but i thought you knew enough about the industry to know what goes on behind closed doors

[theracehorse]

This is to all you (i dont think iam aloud to print the word i want to call you on here) why dont you stop bagging the man you all know nothing and should keep your mouths shut. David Thorn is one the hardest working trainers at Menangle Park the time, effort and attention to detail that he puts in to his horses is a credit to him and as a result of this his stable is in very good form and his horses continue to preform well.

[admin]

Just a friendly warning to all members: Please be careful what you say in this thread.

It's getting a little heated and I know everybody is trying hard to not let it get out of hand, but if it does I'll need to lock this thread and delete any posts that cross the line. Discussion is fine, but please back up what you say with facts and attack the argument not the person behind it.

[triplev123]

i didnt read most of that post, but i thought you knew enough about the industry to know what goes on behind closed doors

Thus Buster, by saying so you have once again underlined and ratified everything that I've said in that post. I am left with no other option but to echo the well chosen words of theracehorse...and this IS the last post that I'll make to this thread.

[buster]

david wilkins is the hardest working trainer at menangle - bar none

[triplev123]

...and a VERY nice bloke from the little that I've had to do with him.

BUGGER! I replied again. ;)

[Mighty Atom]

Congratulations to connections and trainer of Dartmoor.From last to first - very impressive.

[buster]

i hope they pay the late fee for the interdominion, he'll be a big chance the way he keep improving