thornyyyyyy

[buster]

X

[justdoit]

Hi Buster,
Thorny's winner is it's owner a Victorian?
If so and he had not won Mr Thorn might have been wearing some concrete slippers later tonight.:)

[racefair]

D A Kennedy isn't far behind but Thornyyyy better combines his superior training with great driving.

[buster]

X

[aussiebreno]

D A Kennedy isn't far behind but Thornyyyy better combines his superior training with great driving.

Young Jack Painting couldnt have driven them much better last week. 6 from 6 or something like that.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

So, have you purchased that bottle of Maker's Mark yet Buster?

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Buster, seriously...just a bit of advice from someone who, like yourself, has been given to shooting from the Hip at times. Be very careful what you write. Like all of us, you're far from being anonymous for starters. It doesn't take the investigative talents of Hercules Poirot to pick the identities of most of those who post on here. You'll get yourself into really deep shit if you are challenged on the validity of those remarks and you can't back it up with facts.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Be that as it may I'm not talking secrets here Buster, I'm talking straight up legal liables. Currently you don't have a leg to stand on.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

You'd be surprised...but it's your party Buster. Knock yourself out.

[buster]

X

[maestro]

Mr Anthony looked good tonight. Always had ability but went off the boil for Webster, off ordinary draws mostly. I was bullish on him if there was some support for him on Fixed Odds, there was. Happy Days !!

I tipped you guys into Pacific Playgirl a few days ago in the Ladyship Mile thread below. Even happier days !! :o

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Stacks of back class for Mister Anthony, a carbon copy of Dartmoor, well placed & got the bickies. Indy Village, don't know much about the horse but in similar company it dealt to them by 15m with a mile in 1:54.5 last time out & only narrowly beaten the previous outing, again in similar company so no suprises. Last but not least, Dartmoor himself gets the $ once again. Same story, very well placed, no Blacks A Fake or ITMQ in there, home & hosed.

[aussiebreno]

Stacks of back class for Mister Anthony, a carbon copy of Dartmoor, well placed & got the bickies. Indy Village, don't know much about the horse but in similar company it dealt to them by 15m with a mile in 1:54.5 last time out & only narrowly beaten the previous outing, again in similar company so no suprises. Last but not least, Dartmoor himself gets the $ once again. Same story, very well placed, no Blacks A Fake or ITMQ in there, home & hosed.

Stacks of back class about Mr Anthony? This was an M1-M3. Ran in a claimer last start. Before that ran down the track twice to an M1. Was beaten by a M0 4yo a few starts back. So if anything he was up in class. If you go back further his next few was worse than midfield in M2/M3s - last night only had one M1 in the M1/M3 so hardly a difference. The field last night included an Inter Heat placegetter, a horse that ran in the Inter heats yet he got beat soundly beat by M0 and M1 class horses his last couple but last night was taking on M2/M3 horses.

[buster]

X

[maestro]

That was a weak M2-M3 though Breno.

[maestro]

Pacific Playgirl can reel off a brilliant half Buster. Her SS win at Melton was awesome. I timed her 54 and little change off the track. Her form looked dodgy but without a lot of gate speed from bad draws she had no shot in those. Different story last night and Bennett drove a perfect race.

[buster]

X

[maestro]

Clearly Make Mine has gone off the boil. She's been up forever. I didn't like her Shep Cup run and even the start before when Douglas didn't ease out of the trail in the Bendigo Cup at the half was telling. Take her out and it was a nice field but not stellar.

[maestro]

You having a bet at Charlton today Buster ?

It wouldn't surprise me to see the pole horse make it interesting for the Fav especially with the stablemate likely to ease back at the start.

Captain Joy went OK first up, awful second up and had no shot at Terang. I couldn't back him either. The smart wager is probably to take on the Fav if peeps want a piece of $2.2 or thereabouts.

[triplev123]

Buster, if you do the Form the way you assess the winning chances of these horses you must be eating the paint off the walls.

[maestro]

$2.1 from 3 with the 2 scratchings. Im Monaco could have a dig for the top as well.

[aussiebreno]

Buster, if you do the Form the way you assess the winning chances of these horses you must be eating the paint off the walls.
Eating it beats watching it

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Stacks of back class about Mr Anthony? This was an M1-M3. Ran in a claimer last start. Before that ran down the track twice to an M1. Was beaten by a M0 4yo a few starts back. So if anything he was up in class. If you go back further his next few was worse than midfield in M2/M3s - last night only had one M1 in the M1/M3 so hardly a difference. The field last night included an Inter Heat placegetter, a horse that ran in the Inter heats yet he got beat soundly beat by M0 and M1 class horses his last couple but last night was taking on M2/M3 horses.

Everyone has their own ideas on how far back you need to look of course...however for mine, Back Class goes a little deeper than just that Breno.
Mister Anthony has dealt to some VERY GOOD class horses since he began racing as a 3yo back in May of 2008 and he maintained very solid form through to March of 2010 when he beat up on a pretty handy field in the Gawler Cup, to that point a slate of 27 starts for 14 wins & 5 placings over nearly 2 years of racing. He was a very, very consistent horse, no question.
Since March of 2010 I make it that he has had 11 starts for 1 win (which was last night in against M2-M3's admittedly BUT notably, with not a killer in sight) and 10 unplaced efforts.
To put it in a Nutshell, this is not some pie-eater come in from the cold. Just like Dartmoor, old mate Mister Anthony was always a good horse but one that, for whatever reason had gone off form. Horses are not machines despite what some people seems to think. Add to that the fact that it seems so little credit is ever given to first getting and then most importantly of all keeping a horse mentally sharp and there you have it.
The most fascinating thing is that nobody ever seems to say so much as a freaking word about handy horses with good form that leave one stable and promptly lose all form in another stable BUT they will ALWAYS seek to pile shit on the guy who gets a horse that for whatever reason has lost all form in one stable, moves digs & finds it again in some new surroundings. Buster, I'm looking rather sternly in your direction.

[buster]

X

[aussiebreno]

Everyone has their own ideas on how far back you need to look of course...however for mine, Back Class goes a little deeper than just that Breno.
Mister Anthony has dealt to some VERY GOOD class horses since he began racing as a 3yo back in May of 2008 and he maintained very solid form through to March of 2010 when he beat up on a pretty handy field in the Gawler Cup, to that point a slate of 27 starts for 14 wins & 5 placings over nearly 2 years of racing. He was a very, very consistent horse, no question.
Since March of 2010 I make it that he has had 11 starts for 1 win (which was last night in against M2-M3's admittedly BUT notably, with not a killer in sight) and 10 unplaced efforts.
To put it in a Nutshell, this is not some pie-eater come in from the cold. Just like Dartmoor, old mate Mister Anthony was always a good horse but one that, for whatever reason had gone off form. Horses are not machines despite what some people seems to think. Add to that the fact that it seems so little credit is ever given to first getting and then most importantly of all keeping a horse mentally sharp and there you have it.
The most fascinating thing is that nobody ever seems to say so much as a freaking word about handy horses with good form that leave one stable and promptly lose all form in another stable BUT they will ALWAYS seek to pile shit on the guy who gets a horse that for whatever reason has lost all form in one stable, moves digs & finds it again in some new surroundings. Buster, I'm looking rather sternly in your direction.

He beat Shardons Rocket in the Gawler Cup. Going into that race Shardons Rocket was an M2. No different to the horses last night.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

i dont do much form for sydney anymore, its a waste of time

and no not betting at charlton

I'll hazard a guess Buster & say that the reason you don't do much form for Sydney anymore and think it's a waste of time is because you're having no success there. Further to that, I think that is due to you having grown up Handicapping tight half milers with short home stretches. Skunks can & do leave fast enough to hold then they'd walk, walk and zip home to win. Melton is 200m bigger than HP but it still has a pretty serious front-end bias. As a Punter a leader bias is predictable and predictable is good punting. No issues with that. But Menangle? You need to change your entire Handicapping mindset on a 1400m track otherwise you'll just go out backwards. You need to pay WAY MORE ATTENTION TO CLASS & TO BACK CLASS.

In climbing into David Thorn's recent successes you and a few others also don't seem to have noticed a crucial aspect to this...the very thing a lot of people, notably including myself, used to absolutely climb all over Thorny for when he drove at HP, i.e. his extreme...and by that I do mean extreeeeeeeeeeeme...patience, is the thing that is working for him BIG-TIME when he drives at Menangle. I freely admit that I've gone down to the fence on more than one occasion at HP and absolutely given it to Thorny for one of his drives. You ask him. It used to drive me nuts at times. Cost me a bottle of Black Label Johnny Walker one night actually. However, at Menangle....credit where it's due. "If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs..." for want of a better way of describing it. He drives that track superbly well. His timing is excellent. Add that to the fact his horses are trained there on the track, they're super-fit, healthy, they're mentally sharp and they're being exceptionally well placed. No big surprise to me that success follows.
On top of that again, success breeds success. With the imminent increases in prizemoney at Menangle existing clients are shelling out good $ to keep the stable supplied & a string of prospective new clients would no doubt be rining every day to get their horses into the stable...so he's going to be getting more & better horses as he goes...& what happens? Surprise, surprise. More success. To hark back to a very, very old Tv ad. for Cousins Imperial Leather Soap...."Roger, Tahiti looks nice" "Hmmm, Simon...Tahiti". :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[buster]

X

[aussiebreno]

I'll hazard a guess Buster & say that the reason you don't do much form for Sydney anymore and think it's a waste of time is because you're having no success there. Further to that, I think that is due to you having grown up Handicapping tight half milers with short home stretches. Skunks can & do leave fast enough to hold then they'd walk, walk and zip home to win. Melton is 200m bigger than HP but it still has a pretty serious front-end bias. As a Punter a leader bias is predictable and predictable is good punting. No issues with that. But Menangle? You need to change your entire Handicapping mindset on a 1400m track otherwise you'll just go out backwards. You need to pay WAY MORE ATTENTION TO CLASS & TO BACK CLASS.

In climbing into David Thorn's recent successes you and a few others also don't seem to have noticed a crucial aspect to this...the very thing a lot of people, notably including myself, used to absolutely climb all over Thorny for when he drove at HP, i.e. his extreme...and by that I do mean extreeeeeeeeeeeme...patience, is the thing that is working for him BIG-TIME when he drives at Menangle. I freely admit that I've gone down to the fence on more than one occasion at HP and absolutely given it to Thorny for one of his drives. You ask him. It used to drive me nuts at times. Cost me a bottle of Black Label Johnny Walker one night actually. However, at Menangle....credit where it's due. "If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs..." for want of a better way of describing it. He drives that track superbly well. His timing is excellent. Add that to the fact his horses are trained there on the track, they're super-fit, healthy, they're mentally sharp and they're being exceptionally well placed. No big surprise to me that success follows.
On top of that again, success breeds success. With the imminent increases in prizemoney at Menangle existing clients are shelling out good $ to keep the stable supplied & a string of prospective new clients would no doubt be rining every day to get their horses into the stable...so he's going to be getting more & better horses as he goes...& what happens? Surprise, surprise. More success. To hark back to a very, very old Tv ad. for Cousins Imperial Leather Soap...."Roger, Tahiti looks nice" "Hmmm, Simon...Tahiti". :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Wrong. Lets go over last night.

Mister Anthony as we've been over wasnt back class. Prince Benji was the back class runner and done no good (open company and a claimer driver).
Indy Village just too good anyway.
Mapua Legend - leader and won.Memphis Bay back class and ran last.
Dartmoor - same class of race. Bold Cruiser and Megasam back class done no good (ran in FFA Hunter Cup day).
Pacific Playgirl - UP in class. MMC was back class. (Ran in Hunter Cup)
General George beat a pair of back class. Notaswethort has ran in the Inter and Strike Up The Band down from beaten 3.5m M1/M3
Arizone Blue was in the same class.

[triplev123]

your right hes just a better trainer then webster and a better driver than sugars.

im happy to back my judgement everyday of the week and i do, its pretty easy for you to get on here after the race and talk up the winner

Triple says...Still the man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....with thanks to Simon & Garfunkle.

Buster, nowhere did I ever say no even suggest that he was a better trainer than G.Webster nor did I suggest he was a better driver than G. Sugars. That's little more than a product of your fertive imagination and apparent depleted powers of reading & comprehension coming to the fore...yet again. If you can find where I said anything even approaching that then please, feel free to point it out for all & sundry. Did it ever occur to you that so often a simple change of routine, of outlook, of stable surrounds can and does work wonders for horses that have lost form for whatever reason? Probably not. I'll state once more The most fascinating thing is that nobody ever seems to say so much as a freaking word about handy horses with good form that leave one stable and promptly lose all form in another stable BUT they will ALWAYS seek to pile shit on the guy who gets a horse that for whatever reason has lost all form in one stable, moves digs & finds it again in some new surroundings. Buster, I'm looking rather sternly in your direction.
As for talking up anything....what absolute rubbish. If you take my trying to explain to you why it is that you've inadvertantly become a Cello Player in the Marching Band with regard to handicapping these Menangle races as talking up the horses, then so be it. It's your wall paint. Enjoy.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Wrong. Lets go over last night.

Mister Anthony as we've been over wasnt back class.

Triple says...So if it wasn't Back Class...what was it then? Divine Intervention?
I didn't see Benny Hinn on-course at Menangle...did you?

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=417528884996&id=d249d410fc0cd6479f6f7a9c59b7afb4
C'mon. You can do better than that surely?

Up until the end of March 2010, 11 months ago, that horse had a slate of 27 starts for 14 wins & 5 placings over nearly 2 years of racing, under the care of G. Webster from the first time he set foot on the track in anger. After 2yrs or so of very consistent form and after winning a lot of races against some good quality horses including The Gawler Cup, his last win for G. Webster, he tossed in a couple of ordinary efforts & spent about 6 months or so away from the track.
He came back in late, late October 2010, had 4 starts in against pretty solid/in-form M2-M3-M4 company at Melton for no disgrace but no result.
This was followed by 3 starts from the Stand over distances ranging from 2240m to 2760m, each time beginning badly against solid opposition, two of three times sitting up outside the leader virtually throughout and getting beaten 5m, 8m and 50m, the latter after sitting in the breeze and tiring in the Ararat Cup.
Following those race he was dropped into a Claimer against some old hard arses and finished a fair way back & then his next start was at Menangle...and he wins against a field that was not as strong as compared to most of those he had been racing from the Stand & the Mobile in his previous 10 starts. If that's really such a big surprise then troops, I'm Mother Theresa.

[triplev123]

my post was a joke.... but well done for writing so much about it

I thought it was a joke too...but not the kind of joke you may have intended it to be. :p

[triplev123]

PS. Surely I've gotta get points for the Benny Hinn reference & pic. That's GOLD! even if I do say so myself.

[aussiebreno]

Triple says...So if it wasn't Back Class...what was it then? Divine Intervention?
I didn't see Benny Hinn on-course at Menangle...did you?

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=417528884996&id=d249d410fc0cd6479f6f7a9c59b7afb4
C'mon. You can do better than that surely?

Up until the end of March 2010, 11 months ago, that horse had a slate of 27 starts for 14 wins & 5 placings 6 wins were in 3yo company. His next two were in C company, the next three were an M0 an M0/M1 and an M1/M2 (all lesser class than last nights race) That leaves 3 wins. A C7+ beating Red Army who was an M1 back then and only a M2/3 now. Another was the Gawler Cup beating Shardons Rocket who was an M2 at that stage and is now only an M3. And of course lasts nights win an M1/M3. Last night was on par with the highest class race he has won - he has never been in and beat an M3 horse yet he beat Virage and Prince Benji who are M4+ horses. Mister Anthony was not a back class - he has raced in claimers and M2/M3 races for the past 3months. His highest class race, the Ararat Cup, he got well beaten by an M1 pacer - all bar 1 of the field were higher class than Mister Rhys - how can you say Mister Anthony was back class?????. over nearly 2 years of racing, under the care of G. Webster from the first time he set foot on the track in anger. After 2yrs or so of very consistent form and after winning a lot of races against some good quality horses including The Gawler Cup, his last win for G. Webster, he tossed in a couple of ordinary efforts & spent about 6 months or so away from the track.
He came back in late, late October 2010, had 4 starts in against pretty solid/in-form M2-M3-M4 Which was the company he was in last night M1/M3 with only one M1 in the field but with M4+ pacers Prince Benji and Viragecompany at Melton for no disgrace but no result.
This was followed by 3 starts from the Stand over distances ranging from 2240m to 2760m, each time beginning badly against solid opposition An M1 pacer won the race not an M4+ pacer so Mister Anthony wasnt dropping back in class, two of three times sitting up outside the leader virtually throughout and getting beaten 5m, 8m and 50m, the latter after sitting in the breeze and tiring in the Ararat Cup. The result has no barance on whether he is back class. Eg Horse A sits in the death in an C4/C5 and goes down a lip. Horse B sits leaders back in a C6/C7 and gets beat 20m. Next start they both race in a C4/C5. Horse B is back class but horse A isnt.
Following those race he was dropped into a Claimer against some old hard arses and finished a fair way back & then his next start was at Menangle...and he wins against a field that was not as strong as compared to most of those he had been racing from the Stand & the Mobile in his previous 10 starts. If that's really such a big surprise then troops, I'm Mother Theresa.Im not arguing if he should have won or not; im arguing that he wasnt back class; because well, he wasnt!In that claimer The Gunstar won. Virage and Prince Benji were better performed in the Inter Heats - so if anything by that Mister Anthony was UP in class.

[triplev123]

G'day justdoit,
Nah, I can see that we're going to have to agree to disagree. For starters I think you're getting yourself all hung up on the allotted class/es and not the Class of the horses that he has raced & beaten. Working backwards from March 2010 through to his 3yo season...Conte De Christo, Captian Cullen, Ima Spicey Lombo, Mendelico, Charley's Dream, Dazed And Confused, Maffioso etc. Now maybe I'm an easy marker but for mine that's hardly the CV of a horse that's lacking back class. The way I see it...this is Dartmoor all over again...in fact much closer than even I origrinally thoughts... as I neglected to mention that prior to the Claimer, in the three Stand Start events he raced in he came off 20m+ each time as I recall. I'll go to have a look & confirm.

[aussiebreno]

G'day justdoit,
Nah, I can see that we're going to have to agree to disagree. For starters I think you're getting yourself all hung up on the allotted class/es and not the Class of the horses that he has raced & beaten. Working backwards from March 2010 through to his 3yo season...Conte De Christo, Captian Cullen, Ima Spicey Lombo, Mendelico, Charley's Dream, Dazed And Confused, Maffioso etc. Now maybe I'm an easy marker but for mine that's hardly the CV of a horse that's lacking back class. The way I see it...this is Dartmoor all over again...in fact much closer than even I origrinally thoughts... as I neglected to mention that prior to the Claimer, in the three Stand Start events he raced in he came off 20m+ each time as I recall. I'll go to have a look & confirm.
How come he didnt win the last 10 starts then because according to you in all those he was back class.
Have a look at a horse called Too Bad (as one example). He has not just raced against but beaten Holy Camp Boy, Panorama Swing and Artifactor etc. Until he gets to an M4+ race one could say he is racing back class - using your logic. But has he even cracked an M0 yet?

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

How come he didn't win in his last 10 before Menangle? Buggered if I know. Unsuitable race conditions combined with more difficult opposition (stands and tougher marks?), maybe he was unwell, maybe he was depressed, maybe the planets weren't in the right alignment? Honestly, who really knows and can irrefutably pinpoint why horses lose and regain form. Some horses do it many times throughout their careers. These are flesh & blood creatures we're talking about here, they're not freaking motorbikes. All I'm saying is that IMO he had the back class to regain form and to again legitimately perform at that level and then some.

[aussiebreno]

How come he didn't win in his last 10 before Menangle? Buggered if I know. Unsuitable race conditions 1 combined with more difficult oppositionfalse (stands2 and tougher marks3?), maybe he was unwell4, maybe he was depressed5, maybe the planets weren't in the right alignment6? Honestly, who really knows and can irrefutably pinpoint why horses lose and regain form. Some horses do it many times throughout their careers. These are flesh & blood creatures we're talking about here7, they're not freaking motorbikes. All I'm saying is that IMO he had the back class to regain form and to again legitimately perform at that level and then some.
Stepped right into that one without even a struggle littly fishy, hook line and sinker! There are 7 reasons you just posted why he may have won last night as opposed to the other 10 starts he was 'back class'.
If you were following the horse ever since he first dropped back in class (after the Mildura Cup ht) you wouldnt be eating the paint off the walls, youd already have had your house repossed. To use back class as the reason the horse won just isnt on. If you done the form PRIOR to the race rather than AFTER the race you back class runner would have been Prince Benji, or even the favourite and Virage who ran behind Lanercost last week.

[triplev123]

???? Having a great deal of difficulty following your line of thinking there breno. In the context of the form of the horse being discussed, clearly your idea of what constitues back class and mine are oceans apart. So be it. As for you Buster, you should be bloody well ashamed of yourself. Either grow the Cahones to front up and make your accusations face to face... or knock it off. Best that you keep your eye out for Maker's Mark being sold on special. You've gone way past 1 bottle now. It's looking more like a case thereof.

[buster]

X

[aussiebreno]

???? Having a great deal of difficulty following your line of thinking there breno. In the context of the form of the horse being discussed, clearly your idea of what constitues back class and mine are oceans apart. So be it. As for you Buster, you should be bloody well ashamed of yourself. Either grow the Cahones to front up and make your accusations face to face... or knock it off. Best that you keep your eye out for Maker's Mark being sold on special. You've gone way past 1 bottle now. It's looking more like a case thereof.

???? Having a great deal of difficulty following your line of thinking there breno. In the context of the form of the horse being discussed, clearly your idea of what constitues back class and mine are oceans apart. So be it. As for you Buster, you should be bloody well ashamed of yourself. Either grow the Cahones to front up and make your accusations face to face... or knock it off. Best that you keep your eye out for Maker's Mark being sold on special. You've gone way past 1 bottle now. It's looking more like a case thereof.
This might be a foreign but lets do the form BEFORE the races. We will do tomorrow at Menangle.
Rc1 - C0 and C1 NWL5. Jennas Joy is the back class runner having been racing in C1/C2. All the C1s are also back class. Lilac Stride after racing in open 3yos.
Rc2 - 3C0-3C2. Our Mach Leigh raced in an open 3yo and is a 3C1 so he is back class. Screaman Seaman is also back class after racing in a good 3C0-3 last start and he is a 3C1 himself. To a lesser extent the 4 and 5 however they are only 3C0.
Rc3 - C0/C1. Beach Master after running in a C1/C3 last week.
Rc4 - C1/C2 Mares and C3 <$1500L4. No back class runner. (Although I'm sure you will find one that once raced against Lady Euthenia in a trial so is therefore back class for the rest of its career)
Rc5 - C2/C3 - Kazzs Buddy after racing in C3/C5 and C2/C5. Also Perfect Copy Lombo after racing in a C2/C5.
Rc6 - C0/C1 - Innocent Vance after racing in C0/C5s last 2. Note: Laughing Game is not back class. The Northern Frontier race was 4 starts back. Jan 18 he was racing back class but since then has been in the same class. Sign To Inverell also ran in a C1 last start so is not back class. Last start he was but not now.
Rc7 - C2/C3 - Littlechrissyadios after racing in C3/C5 last start. Flips Mate after racing in an M0. Everyone Dreams after racing in C2/C5s. Is Littlechrissy the only horse Thorn hasnt been able to win with? Buster you noticed this?
Rc8 - C4/C5 & M0 C6+ <$1500L4 & $6000 claim. San Fran Lady is the back class of the day. A C7 in with a mares and junior claim and is back from open mares grade. North Precint an M1 (how is he in the race) however is not back class as has been racing in C3/C5 last start - same for Black Fighter. Lady Euthenia is back class as a C9 - raced open mares then M0. Christian Troy is back class after racing C5/7 and C5/6.
Rc9 - Same conditions as Rc8. Slippery Nemo, General George and Good Boys are all back class.

So here are triplev123s bets tomorrow.
Rc1-8, 10
Rc2- 7, 10
Rc3- 5
Rc4- No bets
Rc5- 6,8
Rc6- 5
Rc7- 1,2,8
Rc8- 1,8,9
Rc9- 2,7,9
That is 34 unit spend for 1 unit Eachway.

Aussiebreno doing the form 'traditionally' (in fact it took me longer to find the back class runners than what I did to pick out my selections)
Rc1- Lilac Stride
Rc2- Screaman Seaman
Rc3- Glenhuggard
Rc4- Girls Rule
Rc5- Aceattack Jack
Rc6- Blueridge Mountain
Rc7- Littlechrissyadios
Rc8- San Fran Lady
Rc9- Bo Sparta

18 unit spend 1unit Eachway.

[triplev123]

breno, you're getting as good at shooting off on tangents as Buster.

[aussiebreno]

breno, you're getting as good at shooting off on tangents as Buster.

Ok I guess I'll see you here tuesday night giving me reasons where I went wrong.

[triplev123]

Breno, this started with Buster once again accusing D. Thorn of dastardly deeds & me responding by pointing out why I thought Buster was way wrong....and you've turned it into a tipping competition. If that's not shooting off on a tangent then what is?

[aussiebreno]

Breno, this started with Buster once again accusing D. Thorn of dastardly deeds & me responding by pointing out why I thought Buster was way wrong....and you've turned it into a tipping competition. If that's not shooting off on a tangent then what is?
When I chimed in it was to point out back class cant be used as a reason he won. You are standing by that it can even after I thought I'd already gave valid reasons why it cant. I'm not going to be able to change your mind about Mister Anthony being back class, but this is a last resort to try and get you to see back class doesnt stand up as a reason for horses winning.

[triplev123]

That's fine. You call them the way you see them, I'll do the same. No problems.
Are you coming to the Sydney APG Sale? I'll buy you a coldie.

[aussiebreno]

That's fine. You call them the way you see them, I'll do the same. No problems.
Are you coming to the Sydney APG Sale? I'll buy you a coldie.
No triplev123, got to have money to buy horses :D Good luck in finding the next triplev though

[triplev123]

Join the club. Not buying breno, definately selling though.
Got a slashing colt and 3 lovely fillies. Looking forward to Sunday.
I'll post a pic of the colt later on tonight when it comes through.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

no point putting tips up aussie, he'll just point out how good the form of the winner is AFTER the race

Only when refuting your absolutely scurrilous accusations Buster...and apparently a far greater crime in your eyes than the aformentioned ?
A rather curious value system to say the least.

[aussiebreno]

This might be a foreign but lets do the form BEFORE the races. We will do tomorrow at Menangle.
Rc1 - C0 and C1 NWL5. Jennas Joy is the back class runner having been racing in C1/C2. All the C1s are also back class. Lilac Stride after racing in open 3yos.
Rc2 - 3C0-3C2. Our Mach Leigh raced in an open 3yo and is a 3C1 so he is back class. Screaman Seaman is also back class after racing in a good 3C0-3 last start and he is a 3C1 himself. To a lesser extent the 4 and 5 however they are only 3C0.
Rc3 - C0/C1. Beach Master after running in a C1/C3 last week.
Rc4 - C1/C2 Mares and C3 <$1500L4. No back class runner. (Although I'm sure you will find one that once raced against Lady Euthenia in a trial so is therefore back class for the rest of its career)
Rc5 - C2/C3 - Kazzs Buddy after racing in C3/C5 and C2/C5. Also Perfect Copy Lombo after racing in a C2/C5.
Rc6 - C0/C1 - Innocent Vance after racing in C0/C5s last 2. Note: Laughing Game is not back class. The Northern Frontier race was 4 starts back. Jan 18 he was racing back class but since then has been in the same class. Sign To Inverell also ran in a C1 last start so is not back class. Last start he was but not now.
Rc7 - C2/C3 - Littlechrissyadios after racing in C3/C5 last start. Flips Mate after racing in an M0. Everyone Dreams after racing in C2/C5s. Is Littlechrissy the only horse Thorn hasnt been able to win with? Buster you noticed this?
Rc8 - C4/C5 & M0 C6+ <$1500L4 & $6000 claim. San Fran Lady is the back class of the day. A C7 in with a mares and junior claim and is back from open mares grade. North Precint an M1 (how is he in the race) however is not back class as has been racing in C3/C5 last start - same for Black Fighter. Lady Euthenia is back class as a C9 - raced open mares then M0. Christian Troy is back class after racing C5/7 and C5/6.
Rc9 - Same conditions as Rc8. Slippery Nemo, General George and Good Boys are all back class.

So here are triplev123s bets tomorrow.
Rc1-8, 10 $1.30, $1,04 and $2.40.
Rc2- 7, 10 $2.20 and $1.50
Rc3- 5 $3.70, $1.40.
Rc4- No bets
Rc5- 6,8 $3.00, $1.60
Rc6- 5
Rc7- 1,2,8
Rc8- 1,8,9 $4.00, $1.60
Rc9- 2,7,9 $2.70
26.44 units back = 7.56unit loss
That is 34 unit spend for 1 unit Eachway.

Aussiebreno doing the form 'traditionally' (in fact it took me longer to find the back class runners than what I did to pick out my selections)
Rc1- Lilac Stride $1.30, $1.04.
Rc2- Screaman Seaman $1.50
Rc3- Glenhuggard $1.30
Rc4- Girls Rule $1.40, $1.10
Rc5- Aceattack Jack
Rc6- Blueridge Mountain
Rc7- Littlechrissyadios
Rc8- San Fran Lady
Rc9- Bo Sparta $1.70, $1.20
10.54 units back for 7.44units loss
18 unit spend 1unit Eachway.
for those playing at home they are the results with nsw tab.

[buster]

X

[buster]

X

[racefair]

a few horses tonight lost a couple of seconds .. was the track slower tonight?

[mickeyh]

I will only report the facts. Stewards turned up unannounced at Thorn's place yesterday morning and stayed there all day. He had no winners last night....

[aussiebreno]

I will only report the facts. Stewards turned up unannounced at Thorn's place yesterday morning and stayed there all day. He had no winners last night....

Very interesting

[triplev123]

For a somewhat diminutive 19yo bloke you sure do roll with a rather cavalier attitude to the truth, the whole truth and nothing BUT the truth...Buster. The fact is that ANYONE can turn up out there unannounced at any time of the day or night. The front gate is ALWAYS wide open and the fella has nothing to hide.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Sure. You're a big boy now, I understand.
No doubt you can even sleep without the light on. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Seriously Buster, you gave yourself up cold with that 'just because you can't....' and...'you spastic' routine. You'll have to do a fair bit better than that. If you're a lot more than 2 or 3 years or so out of School, brother...I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes. :p

[Daryl New]

Re your comments in regard to Memphis Bay you failed to acknowledge that (a) Memphis Bay was forced inside the pegs and eventually jumped one and nearly fell. He was travelling well prior to incident and offending driver suspended (b) Although Memphis Bay has speed and is more renowned as a stayer from the front or death (c) with Mapua Legends gate speed it would have been suicide to deathseat in that case. Suggest you revisit how you assess form at Menangle . Triple V is right about how he drives and trains. I am more worried about how the premise that someone may have possibly peed in a swabbing stall after possibly consuming coffee and there may have been enough residue on a piece of straw to cast doubt on a positive swab which is subsequently overturned on appeal.

[buster]

X

[triplev123]

Manners maketh the man Buster. Well done.

[Jackson Grant]

I am sorry if this has already been covered or if it offends anyone but People like thorn and Kennedy are turning this sport into a joke! I have noted that throughout the conversation The fact that thorn and others are not using any substances or not has been debated. At this stage because in Australia you are innocent until proven guilty they are innocent due to the absence of any positive swabs.
However, The way that these trainers can magically improve horses lengths in very short periods (less than a week) is simply not possible! In a one week period you have the opportunity to work the horse on one or two occasions where a few gear adjustments and the like can be made. This in rare cases, can make a large and quick improvement in a horses performance, but certainly doesn't occur with every horse as is the case with these trainers!
One trainer I have noted of late who seemed to have this miraculous ability for the last 2 or 3 years was David druitt in the riverina area. This ability suddenly appeared out of nowhere after 15 years of struggling to get a horse to keep up! He, much like many of the suspected trainers in the game, was constantly taking very weak and poorly performed horses and getting them to run in the death seat doing enormous amounts of work and still winning convincingly! I have noted after a spate of blood testing in the area 6 months ago his team has reverted to the previous 15 years and is barely able to keep up once again.
Their ability to improve on all trainers also astounds me. In today's game anyone who trains horses for a living does it pretty well and there is not much improvement possible on the way the horse is trained. Once again there is a rare occasion where trainers can be improved on.
The strike rate of these stables is also exemplary! I would guess that the winning percentage of these stables would be from 40-50% which simply isn't possible without some help! This of course doesn't take into account hobby trainers who may only have one or two horses in work and only start them rarely. Of any of the large stables the best of their strike rates would be maybe 10-15%. This is a very large difference!
I noted also earlier there was a discussion about horses being back in grade at menangle and them being able to take advantage of the bigger track. In regards to this point I would like to bring a case forward. Dartmoor had been racing in QLD struggling to win claiming races. It arrives in Sydney steps straight into metro or handicap class races and wins 3 or 4 races straight all in dominate fashion. This appears to me as a step up in grade!
Also thorn has just last week trained 4 winners at menangle on Friday night at a metropolitan class meeting. I can hardly remember him training more than 4 winners at metro meetings in a year! This could be a result of him being sent some better class horses and he maybe just having a purple patch which can happen but he has constantly been winning trebles of late which is almost impossible to do with a team of around 15-16 horses. This has been happening in the riverina with the Kennedy stable who work a few more horses numbers wise and admittedly they have some very talented ones, but they train a treble or more every week! This isn't possible!
It is also very coincidental how the stewards arrived at the stables of thorn the horses that night did not show their usually qualities. Another cases of this was with the Russo stable when they were followed to the wagga pacers cup meeting. They had two horses engaged in the event one being doctor zeus and the other being a claiming class horse! Both of these had good form prior and were well fancied. They both however performed very poorly and dropped out at the 400.
I have tried to write a reply that presents the facts and my opinion all at once which can be difficult to do. I also do not mean to aim this article at any particular stables, however the ones mentioned are just the most blatant examples of this in racing at the current time.

[allthingsharness]

Jackson Grant jealousy is a curse. Seven or eight paragraphs of claims and not one bit of evidence!

Lets have a look at his performances when the stewards turned up!

26th Feb:
Mister Anthony sat parked and was beaten 1.6 metres - not a bad effort!
Vertigal got smashed up the back and then had to go to early and still came in third.

So the stewards roll up for another peek on the 5th March
Indy Village led, won - 1:53:5
Vertigal 3rd and all reports it come close to breaking a last half record over 2300m
Perfect shot - 2nd running 1:52:8 and running home in a 26.8 qtr
Bo Sparta 3rd

Jackson Grant you have to be joking!!!

All I can say is let stewards keeping rolling up to his place and the swabs pre and post race continue and then the winners continue!
Sad thing is that you will still be complaining in 12 months time!

I suggest Jackson Grant, you go find yourself some horses with some real upside and send them to a real trainer and enjoy some of the prize money increases coming our way!

[Jackson Grant]

Megasam NZ,
You have got to be kidding! Accusing me of being over the top and then calling thorn "the menangle king!"
I have warmed to the idea that some people can train, however I don't believe overnight they can go from being like thorn was to not being beaten!
My comments are from my point of view as a trainer and driver! I could not count the amount of times that I have finished 2nd in a race to a horse that is from one of these stables and to be honest it gives me the shits! It has cost me and the owners of the horses thousands and thosands of dollars!

However, from the point of view that you are coming from (degenerate gambler) I would love these stables! Just by following them you can make a fortune!!
Regards Jackson Grant!

[Jackson Grant]

Allthingsharness,
If thorn is doing it without using anything good on him! He deserves to win races! I however have had enough experience in this game to realize to do what he is doing is simply not possible!

Let the stewards continue to go to his place and the winners keep coming! Haha those two things will not happen at the same time!

[Jackson Grant]

And as for being a real trainer, how many of these horses has thorn had since they were yearlings?! How many has he done all the hard work with of breaking them in and getting them to run!!

All these stables do is get old horses who have some ability treat them and take them to the races! That is not a real trainer!!

[Jackson Grant]

Sam NZ! I think it's closer to my last 130 starts!

[Camber on the bend]

First time poster on here but no one seems to ask the question so I might as well.

If all these stables are using something and are getting swabbed all the time, then how come they aren't getting any positives?

I would have thought that if they were using something then surely the swabs would come back positive.

[Jackson Grant]

I agree with megasam NZ on that. Apparently it is very expensive to test all of these samples. Even when pre race blood samples are taken generally they are only tested for TCO2, when they are taken from our horses that is the case anyway...
People say that the USA is 10 years ahead of our swabbing procedures so it is not hard to see how they cannot pick up every substance.

[Camber on the bend]

Megasam no it is the camber on the old cherry capitals bends. There isnt any.

Back to the topic. So you are saying that they do not test for everything. What is everything? With this I mean that surely in this day and age their swabbing procedure covers all the illegal substances right?

Jackson Grant who do you have horses with?

What I would like to know is how do the trainers know what substances the Stewards are swabbing for. Also how do the trainers know which samples and swabs will be fully tested?

I believe they dont so I cannot see in anyones right mind why you would want to use illegal substances when you simply do not know what is tested for and when.

Did that make sense?

[Jackson Grant]

When they take blood from horses there is a slip that has boxes ticked that show what it is to be tested for. On this list there is about 10 substances. The only one I've ever seen ticked when they have taken blood is TCO2. I don't know if this is always the case it's just what I've noticed... I dont really know if this is all try test for or not.

The trainers don't or shouldn't know who, when or what they are being tested for so it really is a risk that they take when using these substances for the first time especially.

[Camber on the bend]

Jackson are you sure about that? So you as the trainer (I gather only you can sign for the horses blood samples) can see exactly what they are testing for. That is crazy. So in some ways a trainer can see this and know what is being tested for.

I gather by the way you discuss some of these people that you are in the Riverina. Where are you training out of? Your not Trev White are you?

[aussiebreno]

Jackson Grant,

I pose another query. Why should the great trainer, B J Kelly, have been disqualified on his way to the races at Cobram with Greg, Greg Kelly, even though he HADNT administered a prohibited substance.

Admitedly, he did have the stomach tube etc, in his posession, but how was anyone to know it was to be used on Greg?
Probably possesion with intent or maybe just possesion of a prohibeted substance.

Also, technology can only be so good. They could be using a drug that a test hasnt been found for yet.

[Mighty Atom]

Probably possesion with intent or maybe just possesion of a prohibeted substance.

Also, technology can only be so good. They could be using a drug that a test hasnt been found for yet.
Hi aussiebreno, could you or somebody put me in the picture here. Over he in the west I'm under the assumption they are freezing swabs for future testing down the track,when technology becomes available to test for the drugs that are undetectable at present. Is that the case over in the east? I've always been a little cynical to exactly how many samples are tested and for what, especially from a horse that has returned a negative or two. They are fairly costly to test and with the hundreds of swabs that's a fair amount and no doubt with all clubs they are looking to save money. I don't know how much blood they take for a sample but if its anything like human blood samples, to test for a number of irregularities the Doc will require quite a few vials of blood to cover it all. so to do a complete test for perhaps nine substances you would need a fair amount of blood. I've always thought it is the threat of being caught down the track that may deter the drug cheats and to save the clubs a lot of money - as i have said, I am cynical.

[Camber on the bend]

Maybe Jackson Grant knows what happens in that regard. I have always seen several vials taken but I don't get to the stables much these days so haven't seen the procedure in recent years.

Jackson do they take several vials of blood? Maybe they take a different vial for a different test (thats why one may have been marked TC02).

[aussiebreno]

Hi aussiebreno, could you or somebody put me in the picture here. Over he in the west I'm under the assumption they are freezing swabs for future testing down the track,when technology becomes available to test for the drugs that are undetectable at present. Is that the case over in the east? I've always been a little cynical to exactly how many samples are tested and for what, especially from a horse that has returned a negative or two. They are fairly costly to test and with the hundreds of swabs that's a fair amount and no doubt with all clubs they are looking to save money. I don't know how much blood they take for a sample but if its anything like human blood samples, to test for a number of irregularities the Doc will require quite a few vials of blood to cover it all. so to do a complete test for perhaps nine substances you would need a fair amount of blood. I've always thought it is the threat of being caught down the track that may deter the drug cheats and to save the clubs a lot of money - as i have said, I am cynical.
Im sure Buster or VVV may give better answers but Ill give it a shot anyway!
They do freeze swabs. For a set number of years maybe 5 or 7 not quite sure. They take several blood samples pre race; although in the Riverina it seems they only do post race urine of the winner. Vic is more diligent in their testing; at least in the Country circuit. Dont know what they are tested for probably Bi Carb, TC02, Blue Magic, Saline, EPO or whatever else is banned and they have tests for. I think Buster said in another thread EPO is expensive to test for ..dont quote me though....
Take about 6 vials of blood from memory.
As the saying goes the crims are always ahead of the cops. Snake venom or god knows what is being used first has to come to the attention of testers and then has to have a test made...which imo would be a lengthy process.

[Jackson Grant]

Yes they still take 5 vials from memory.

And mighty atom, I like you are very cynical of how many are actually tested and how many are frozen for testing later. In Victoria very recently there was a case involving a mistfud and a positive that was returned from a frozen sample. I still don't know how many of these tests are done.

[Jackson Grant]

I think aussiebreno could be right with the 6 vials actually

[buster]

maybe the stewards panel can enlighten you guys...seeing as they read this forum

[Cane Smoke]

In response to Thorny comments.
I am very late to this forum business - infact just broken my virginity.
Whether it is Kennedy, Thorn, Gath, Hancock or Peace one should not be punishing untill there is any wrong doing. If it is proven then these guys fall on their sword.
We should be encouraging success. Harness racing has always struggled with this.
It sound like they have tried to catch the Thorns many times but to no avail.
Is it not a case of a guy who has toiled for years - was well taught - fundamentally is a good horseman - is now having some luck via better horses / owners and more importantly not having to transport his stable 80kms to HP. Alot needs to be said for racing in your backyard which for Thorn is home soil. Interesting that his horses seem to go better for other drivers (not sure what the ratio is).

[Mighty Atom]

Welcome Cane Smoke, One should never accuse any stable or trainer of any wrongdoing, apart from the fact that you may have some form of litigation on your hands it is all supposition. On saying that, one would be naive to believe that horses racing today are not receiving medicinal help. I refrain from using the word drugs because it conjures up a more sinister image.It defies logic that with the high pressure racing of today, shorter recovery periods etc. that the horse can overcome these problems naturally.
The chances of escaping a positive from a prohibitive substance really depends on what is being tested for. Back in the day's of my involvement in standardbreds( 70's, 80's & early 90's ) the analytical laboratories,particularly over here in the West had an enormous headache trying to keep up with the detection of illegal substances let alone getting ahead of it. I know what was being used, administration times and methods etc because I was involved in it. The chances of avoiding detection today are a lot more difficult even with the highly sophisticated drugs because of huge advances in detecting methods, but as I have previously said it depends on what they are and aren't looking for. That is why the possibility of your horse procuring a positive in a post test i.e. frozen swabs, I think is the best scenario for cleaner racing. I could write a book on this subject and you would probably have trouble believing it.

[Camber on the bend]

If people are looking at horses that one might suspect are receiving some sort of help, why haven't a whole heap of other names appeared on here?

Of course I am not suggesting anything sinister for one minute with Darrell Graham runners but no one seemed to even question Courageous Annies mile smashing run when she raced outside the runaway leader at Menangle a few months back. From a sinister perspective I would have thought that runs like this would have had people suggesting wrongdoing.

For the record I believe she had and has the raw ability to have done what she did. Going through this thread and looking at the way the mentioned trainer at the start of this thread races his horses, they don't seem too often to race amazing miles sitting in the death and the like. Most of his horses seems to come from well back in the field.

Mighty Atom I would find it amazing that trainers potentially would play russian roulette with the testing procedures. That would be plain dumb.

[Cane Smoke]

Thanks Mighty Atom - maybe my lack of punctuation has caused a misread. There is no accusation. I am actually pro success provided it is done correctly. In relation to this post - Thorns success should be commended and encouraged. My belief is that he is a good horseman and that his confidence has grown exponentially by having menangle on his door step, good owners, some quality stock. His driving has improved but for me he is a better trainer than driver hence my comment regarding how horses have a better win ratio when driven by others. But then again this may be due to his placement and utilising dispensations (i.e jnr drivers). The industry needs more Thorns which blossom into roses!

[Mighty Atom]

Hello Cane Smoke, no, there was no inference towards you I was just generalizing.

[Mighty Atom]

Hello Camber on the bend, yes it would be very dumb to play Russian Roulette with the analyst because I would say that all drugs can be detected today with the exception of myo - inositol - prispyrophosphate or ITPP ( a drug that forces hemoglobin in blood to release more of its oxygen). That is why the freezing of swabs for future testing is the only way to counteract this problem. But I,m going to stick my neck out here and ask the question, are all swabs tested? I'm asking this question now because I know from the past they weren't.

[latemail_cam]

Havent been on here for awhile see a few interesting topics of discussion. One thing I will say in relation to MISTER ANTHONY is that he is best from in front and he hadnt lead for along time before he won 1st up for David Thorn.

[Camber on the bend]

Havent been on here for awhile see a few interesting topics of discussion. One thing I will say in relation to MISTER ANTHONY is that he is best from in front and he hadnt lead for along time before he won 1st up for David Thorn.

Did you see this horse go today. Was very impressive. Loves to lead and bowl along. Keeps running times like that it will end up at the big end of town at the end of the year with all the big races around. David is doing a great job with his team of horses. He has been send some really good ones recently and they have been burning up the big track there at Menangle. Thats two sub 1.53 miles in a row for the horse. Bledisloe was also an excellent win today.

Lots more good horses will head Menangle way with all the good money on offer.