Sires 13/14

[Gtrain]

With no Rock n Roll Hanover and no Somebeachsomewhere on our shores this year there will be a lot of people looking for new options. What's all the mail on what's coming to our shores? Appears light on for new blood this year.

[mango]

Captaintreacherous who is a son of SBSW just won the NA cup going 1:48.3

[LisaB25]

Is sbsw not coming down under again this season?

[Richard prior]

The whisper is that SBSW's management want Mega Bucks to send him down this season and its looking very unlikely that he will come. It will be very interesting to see what David James brings out to replace Rocknroll Hanover.

[LisaB25]

disappointing...was considering sending one to him this season...

[mightymo]

I believe there will be frozen semen available to SBSW

[Richard prior]

Must be very disappointing for David James, he's worked very hard to get these high quality stallions down here and with the Sad demise of Rocknroll Hanover and the situation with Somebeachsomewhere, you have to be feeling for him. On the other hand, Artistic Fella and Four Starzzz Shark are starting to show some real promise. What I have noticed is that Empire have had Someardensomewhere up on their site, so maybe there's still a slim chance of the Beach coming.

[eliteblood]

With no Rock n Roll Hanover and no Somebeachsomewhere on our shores this year there will be a lot of people looking for new options. What's all the mail on what's coming to our shores? Appears light on for new blood this year.

With the departure of these two it will be a big year for RNR Heaven. I believe he was both a better racehorse and a better individual than his sire in any case.

[Gtrain]

I'm certain Peppertree must be licking their lips right now. Any new stallions going to be stepping onto our shores? Is it true there is now a rule preventing US 3yos from retiring to stud now?

[eliteblood]

There is a 2 year trial taking place in which progeny of stallions 4YO and younger at the time of service are ineligible for stakes races at some of the major tracks (including Meadowlands and Woodbine).
This is an attempt to encourage the top 3YO's to stay at the track for another year.

[Gtrain]

Ahhh ok thanks Trevor. Knew something was in just wasn't sure on the specifics. Interesting move.

[teecee]

Being a son of Mach Three, does anyone think Auckland Reactor will attract much patronage in Australia.???
With champion status via racetrack performance in NZ but IMO very much below par in Australia and USA campaigns will this be against him in the minds of Australian breeders???

[Gtrain]

In his price bracket I'd much prefer Artistic Fella. His numerous failed campaigns stain my mind. I'd also rather breed to the horse that beat him in the interdom in Mr Feelgood. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is not his first attempt at becoming a sire either. No doubt, like his racetrack career, there was excuses there.

[mightymo]

I spoke with David James from Empire this morning. He confirmed that unfortunately SBSW wil NOT be returning in the flesh to Aust this season. However, he was happy to report that there will be frozen semen available.

[Triple V]

With the departure of these two it will be a big year for RNR Heaven. I believe he was both a better racehorse and a better individual than his sire in any case.

[VVV] Testify Brother Trevor. Amen. Could not agree more.

[Triple V]

Being a son of Mach Three, does anyone think Auckland Reactor will attract much patronage in Australia.???
With champion status via racetrack performance in NZ but IMO very much below par in Australia and USA campaigns will this be against him in the minds of Australian breeders???

[VVV] G'day Tony. I'd be very surpised if he served many mares here & by that I mean that if he exceeds 20 for mine he's doing well.
The reasons why the horse got his arse handed to him during the QLD ID and then got it handed to him again when he went to the US aside....I think it all comes down to the fact that if his connections had instead left Mark Purdon alone and allowed him to manage the horse's career...they'd have ended up with a much better result over the longer term.
Added to that....for crying out loud...the excuse machine that followed his every step, breath & crap. JESUS WEPT! If anyone set out to get the people to start shouting BULLSHIT! from the grandstands no better road map for achieving that could've possibly been produced.

Grant makes a very good point above.
Artistic Fella has made an excellent debut here and they give every indication to me that they will go on as 3yos & beyond.
Racehorse wise, no contest. Artistic Fella was the real deal, a 3-headed Gorilla. Auckland Reactor wouldn't have known which way he went. No contest there.
One thing though. Although all we have to judge a potential sire on when he heads to stud is of course his racetrack career, in the end they all become Non-Winners again in the Breeding Barn.
A truly great sire will overcome all, small books of mixed quality mares, a lack of opportunity for their progeny, the lot.
Consider Christian Cullen & Elsu as examples. Both terrific racehorses. Christian Cullen's initial opportunities were by no means luxurious but he overcame. Elsu's initial opportunities were far better in terms of overall mare quality and numbers but he did little or one nothing. They've either got it or they haven't.

[HISGEN65]

Anyone seen any MISTER BIG progeny?...any thoughts on BIG JIM?...2 sires that havent had much of a mention around here

[LisaB25]

When AR first went to stud wasn't there a fertility problem with him?

[Triple V]

Anyone seen any MISTER BIG progeny?...any thoughts on BIG JIM?...2 sires that havent had much of a mention around here

[VVV] Thumbs up for both...I thought a lot of Mister Big's yearlings looked really good on their videos from the US Sales late last year...much better looking than him if the truth be known..and Big Jim was a ball tearing 2yo, IMO. Big, strong, long striding & deceptively fast.

[HISGEN65]

[VVV] Thumbs up for both...I thought a lot of Mister Big's yearlings looked really good on their videos from the US Sales late last year...much better looking than him if the truth be known..and Big Jim was a ball tearing 2yo, IMO. Big, strong, long striding & deceptively fast.
I agree Jaimie..I like them both especially BIG JIM..He's the type of horse I dig

[Gtrain]

I have found it interesting (and will continue to) watching the fortunes of sires like Artistic Fella, Four Starzz and Mr Big who made there names as monster free for allers. So often you here their siring credentials potted as being a free for aller. I really think this current group will go a long way to dispelling any of these concerns. I loved watching Mr Big and Artistic Fella race. We are going to get a lot more free for allers as the sires out here now. We will see comes to mind as one that looks like venturing out this year.

[Viv Strangman]

[VVV] G'day Tony. I'd be very surpised if he served many mares here & by that I mean that if he exceeds 20 for mine he's doing well.
The reasons why the horse got his arse handed to him during the QLD ID and then got it handed to him again when he went to the US aside....I think it all comes down to the fact that if his connections had instead left Mark Purdon alone and allowed him to manage the horse's career...they'd have ended up with a much better result over the longer term.
Added to that....for crying out loud...the excuse machine that followed his every step, breath & crap. JESUS WEPT! If anyone set out to get the people to start shouting BULLSHIT! from the grandstands no better road map for achieving that could've possibly been produced.

Grant makes a very good point above.
Artistic Fella has made an excellent debut here and they give every indication to me that they will go on as 3yos & beyond.
Racehorse wise, no contest. Artistic Fella was the real deal, a 3-headed Gorilla. Auckland Reactor wouldn't have known which way he went. No contest there.
One thing though. Although all we have to judge a potential sire on when he heads to stud is of course his racetrack career, in the end they all become Non-Winners again in the Breeding Barn.
A truly great sire will overcome all, small books of mixed quality mares, a lack of opportunity for their progeny, the lot.
Consider Christian Cullen & Elsu as examples. Both terrific racehorses. Christian Cullen's initial opportunities were by no means luxurious but he overcame. Elsu's initial opportunities were far better in terms of overall mare quality and numbers but he did little or one nothing. They've either got it or they haven't.

. Artistic Fella a 3-headed gorilla- you are joking. Can't be the same Artistic Fella I saw in the flesh in the Breeders Crown elim and final. Beaten and well beaten both times. A lovely racehorse but having seen both in the flesh I don't know how you can honestly say he was that much better than Auckland Reactor. And at best he has made a promising start to his siring career. From 80+ foals, he has 2 really nice fillies and bugger all else. In Nz he was that highly regarded he served 9 mares. There is a prevailing mood these days in both Nz +Aust to judge horses on how they perform in your own back yard. I am as guilty of it as any one else. My opinion of Artistic Fella was based on what I saw in the flesh. Mr Feelgood is another who suffers from not performing to the same level everywhere he raced. Outstanding in both the Usa+Aust but an 11 start non winner in Nz. For what ever reason Mr Feelgood just didnt race anywhere near his true ability in Nz. Do you write him off as a sire prospect in Nz?. No but it does play a part when assessing potential sires for the coming season. Auckland Reactor draws exactly the same reaction from Australians as Mr Feelgood does from Kiwis. What they saw in their backyard was not at the same level as he performed in Nz or to the level they expected. So they rate him accordingly. I saw him race in Nz numerous times and have no doubt that Auckland Reactor during his 3+4yr old campaigns in Nz was very very special. As good as anything to race here in my lifetime. And that will be reflected in the number of mares he serves this year in Nz. I have no doubt he will serve a 200+ book in Nz. Pricing him at $3000 was an invitation most Nz breeders will struggle to refuse. And in Aust - At that price he will serve more than 20 but no where near what he will serve on this side of the Tasman. The one thing I had a query about was his fertility but when I spoke to Alabar they assured me that a part of the reason for pricing him at $3000 was they were very confident that he would handle a large book with ease. The one thing i would completely agree with Jamie is that stallions have either got it or they havn't.

[Gtrain]

Viv I'm pretty sure Artistic Fella is still at Empire... Also, AR failed sensationally at two out of three places he went to. Mr FG failed at one out of three, and hardly as disgustingly as AR did he when he had heat applied. These things stick in Aussies minds. I thought 20 mares at best in Aus and NZ!

[Viv Strangman]

Well Grant , i love to have a gamble. You name the amount and i'm in. How many mares will Auckland Reactor serve in NZ+Aust. I'm picking 250+ and your picking 40. Closest to the right figure takes the money. And Grant , Mr Feelgood was an 11 start maiden in Nz. Auckland Reactor had 11 starts in Aust. Difference is he won 5 of his 11 starts. So if winning 5 of 11 is a "sensational failure" what does that make Mr Feelgood.

[Gtrain]

Viv my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek with that statement. I am well aware of the blind faith of kiwis!! That alone should see him serve 20. But here in Aus we tend to remember the horrific fails in all group 1s he contested on this side of he ditch and the lowly graded races he got licked in the us. Auckland Reactor is individually responsible for setting back the general consensus of the quality of Australian racing in the US around 50years. Him solely costing Blackie no 5 will see an entire state of Queensland avoid him like the Black Plague. I've labelled kiwis blindly faithful, queenslanders are worse! The timing of his fails leads one to believe he was a horse with not the best of constitutions. His interdom efforts were appalling.
Feelgood may be a sensational failure in nz but he has been more than a sensational success in two other countries rather than dominating age class racing and some ffas as a 4yo in the north island of nz. Needless to say, my mares won't meet him!

[Viv Strangman]

Come on Grant . Put your money up. I know no Australian rates a kiwi horse. If you listen to any Australian , our racing is weak, our horses overated, ect, ect. Maybe it was a poor lot AR was beating. Depends how you rate ITMQ, Changeover, Monkey King. All the same our poor kiwi breds will just keep winning those Australian classics every week. There is an old saying in Nz with regards to Australians and racing horses there; You never win their respect ,just their money.

[Triple V]

Hey Viv,

Mate, if you're going to take a swing...at least try to keep your eye on the ball eh? :rolleyes:


Jamie, you are sarting to sound like a PR spokesperson for Pepper Tree. Artistic Fella a 3-headed gorilla- you are joking.
[VVV] :confused: He stands at Empire.... and no Viv, I'm not joking. 1:49 & a piece over 1 & 1/4miles is not for mine the effort of a single-headed gorilla.

Can't be the same Artistic Fella I saw in the flesh in the Breeders Crown elim and final. Beaten and well beaten both times.
[VVV] :confused: Bzzzzzz. He won the Breeders Crown Final in 1:49.4.

A lovely racehorse but having seen both in the flesh I don't know how you can honestly say he was that much better than Auckland Reactor.

If you lined them up side by side, physically there is also no comparison. Artistic Fella is a very imposing individual. Auckland Reactor is not.

And at best he has made a promising start to his siring career. From 80+ foals, he has 2 really nice fillies and bugger all else.
[VVV] In terms of numbers & mare quality, from relatively limited opportunities as compared to his contemporaries he has 80 current 2yo foals, 9 individual 2yo winners, 5 of them in 2:00.7 or faster & a season's leading $$$ earning & fastest (1:55.4) 2yo filly in AUS. Incidentally that's the 4th fastest mile paced by a 2yo thus far this season & it's easily the fastest paced by a 2yo filly this season. Not bad.

In Nz he was that highly regarded he served 9 mares.
[VVV] Ahuh. Well Viv, getting down to tin tacks here....
I'd have to seriously question NZ breeding decisions at any time as being anything even remotely approaching that which could be termed as being a reliable indicator of subsequent siring success let alone being anything that any AUS breeder should seek to hang their hats upon.
Not so long ago NZ breeders lined up in their droves & they sent a swag of good mares & some very good mares to Elsu and ended up with nothing to show for it whatsoever.

There is a prevailing mood these days in both Nz +Aust to judge horses on how they perform in your own back yard. I am as guilty of it as any one else. My opinion of Artistic Fella was based on what I saw in the flesh.
[VVV] I'm a bit confused here Viv.
In your own back yard? I think maybe you're confusing the horse with another.
Artistic Fella won 7 or 8 straight, maybe more, in deep & against the best around as a 3yo at The Meadowlands. Do you live in New Jersey?
As I recall The Meadowlands thought so much of the horse when he retired they gave him an official send off.
To my knowledge Artistic Fella has never once set foot in anger on any racetrack anywhere in the Southern Hemisphere, NZ or AUS....although I recall he may have been taken to Shepparton & paraded one night soon after his arrival in Australia.

Mr Feelgood is another who suffers from not performing to the same level everywhere he raced. Outstanding in both the Usa+Aust but an 11 start non winner in Nz.
For what ever reason Mr Feelgood just didnt race anywhere near his true ability in Nz.
[VVV] Wasn't discussing him...although I recall that when he arrived here in Australia from NZ for the first time, physically he looked terrible and his feet were a disgrace. The horse raced infinitely better & more successfully when he went back under Luke's care, recording close-up 2nds to ITMQ, Smoken Up etc. in big $$$ races.

Do you write him off as a sire prospect in Nz?.
[VVV] No, however...to be frank, who really cares what happens/will happen in NZ these days? It is irrelevant & increasingly so.
It has been quite a while now since a NZ Stud has put their hand in their pocket and secured a genuine top shelf, high profile straight off the race track horse. Think about it.
In the general time frame as the likes of Rock N Roll Heaven, Sportswriter, Shadow Play, Somebeachsomewhere, Rocknroll Hanover, Artistic Fella etc. have come to stand stud here AUS...Big Jim was the single notable import to NZ.


No but it does play a part when assessing potential sires for the coming season.
[VVV] Mr Feelgood has been available for a while now & winners wise he already has a few runs on the board. I would have thought you'd assess him on that?

Auckland Reactor draws exactly the same reaction from Australians as Mr Feelgood does from Kiwis. What they saw in their backyard was not at the same level as he performed in Nz or to the level they expected. So they rate him accordingly.
[VVV] For a horse of his calibre & ownership Mr Feelgood was not in particularly good shape when he arrived here for the first time from NZ, moving from his NZ trainer to Luke MCarthy. The apparent level of care that had been lavished upon him over there appeared to leave much to be desired. He raced infinitely better here in Australia and went back over to NZ under the care of an Australian Trainer and raced infinitely better than he had raced when first in NZ under the care of an NZ trainer. Imagine that eh?

I saw him race in Nz numerous times and have no doubt that Auckland Reactor during his 3+4yr old campaigns in Nz was very very special. As good as anything to race here in my lifetime. And that will be reflected in the number of mares he serves this year in Nz.
[VVV] The question initially asked was how many mares he might serve in AUS. As I said above, who cares what he does or does not do in NZ. You guys jumped on the Elsu bandwagon too & got left holding steaming bags of the brown stuff.


I have no doubt he will serve a 200+ book in Nz. Pricing him at $3000 was an invitation most Nz breeders will struggle to refuse.
[VVV] Viv, for someone given to reading between the lines such as myself, that means things are a bit tight $$ wise, the NZ Studs have set the standard by looking inwards to fill their Rosters and the Scottish Presbyterian heritage of so many of our breeders will take the tip/similarly come to the fore.

And in Aust - At that price he will serve more than 20 but no where near what he will serve on this side of the Tasman.
[VVV] Rightly or wrongly... and largely through no fault of his own, the horse a potential sire profile that's on par with a Bondi Cigar. If he serves more than 20 mares here I'd be stunned.

The one thing I had a query about was his fertility but when I spoke to Alabar they assured me that a part of the reason for pricing him at $3000 was they were very confident that he would handle a large book with ease.
[VVV] Good luck to them. They did the same with Elsu and with Gotta Go Cullect now that I think of it. If the horse has it he will do it. Glad it's not my money just the same.

The one thing i would completely agree with Jamie is that stallions have either got it or they havn't.
[VVV] Common ground at last. :D



VVV

[Triple V]

You guys are getting a bit precious Tony. I thought the Macular Degeneration and Glaucoma aspects where pretty funny and introduced to underline a point. As I said to you in the PM, anyone who thinks that Artistic Fella and Auckland Reactor are comparable physically/type wise needs their eyes examined. It's like standing Hulk Hogan next to a Pipe Cleaner.

[Shannon]

Auckland Reactor is and was a machine. He'll make it. Well priced at 3k

[Viv Strangman]

[QUOTE=Triple V;27350]Hey Viv,

Mate, if you're going to take a swing...at least try to keep your eye on the ball eh? :rolleyes:

Hey Jamie,
Just need to correct some of less than accurate comments in your last post. Lets start with Artistic Fella

Artistic Fella -- I saw him race in North America but not at his base in New Jersey but at the Breeders Crown at Woodbine as a 3yr old. He had his three headed gorilla suit on finishing a great 5th in his heat and an outstanding 6th in the final. In fact he only raced outside New Jersey 3 times as a 3yr old and missed the winners circle 3 times. One thing that has always intrigued me about Artistic Fella is why in his whole 52 start career he never started on a 1/2 mile track. Sure there was a good reason. I have seen both Artistic Fella and Auckland Reactor in the flesh up close and struggle bigtime to see the enormous difference you profess to see. I am just tracking down a recent photo I saw of Auckland Reactor and will post it alongside one of Artistic Fella so the readers can make their own mind up. As for his stud record, to produce one quality filly from 80 foals with the 2yr old racing structure you have in Australia is way short of "Not Bad".

Mr Feelgood--I read in your post that when he first arrived in Australia from Nz he looked terrible and his feet were a disgrace. His feet must have just hung together long enough and his condition improved just enough on that first trip because in those 7 starts he won a Hunter Cup and an Inter- Dominion for the Butt brothers. Twice in your post you mention Mr Feelgood was in terrible condition when moved to Luke MCarthy. Why you felt it necessary to blacken the name of two of the most respected and professional horsemen in the world is beyond me but I think it is a sad relection on the writer rather than Tim or Ants. And the fact still remains that even under Luke MCarthy, Mr Feelgood is still a non winner in Nz.

Sires-- I see that you have decided that Nz is becoming irrelevant because we haven't brought any new stallions straight off the track recently. I presume you mean Southern Hemisphere breeding rights as all the horses you mention are shuttles. It is simply a matter of the size of the market. We will be lucky to serve 3000 mares in Nz this season and you could not make an economic case for bringing sires such as Artistic Fella, Sportswriter or Shadow Play to Nz. They just wouldn't get the mares to make it worth while. As an example Shadow Play has been available to Nz breeders for the last 3 years but has served just over 60 mares in total in that time. Now I think he is a real chance of making it as a sire but until he has serious runs on the board he won't get large numbers in Nz. Sires such as SBSW and RNRH will always attract breeders regardless of where they stand. 75Nz breeders used SBSW last year. What makes it tough for new sires in Nz is we have Bettors Delight, Mach Three and Christian Cullen already established . Not only do they dominate the Nz sire scene but they hold 3 of the top 4 positions on the Australian sires list. Throw in up and comers such as American Ideal and Jeremes Jet and newcomers such as Big Jim, Changeover and Auckland Reactor and we are travelling just fine on this side of the Tasman. If I was an Australian breeder I would be really concerned that Nz based sires dominate your sires list and that 13 of the top 20 stake earners in Australia have that irrelevant tag of Nz beside their name.

[Richard prior]

Hi Viv, I heard that there are 150 NZ breeders on the waiting list for SBSW'S frozen semen and there will only be 75 frozen straws available to them now that he's not coming, Which stallion or stallions do you think the disappointed breeders will jump ship to??? It will be the same situation in Australia.

[Triple V]

http://seelsterfarms.com/images/artistic-fella/ArtisticFellaConformationShot-July2009.jpg
Artistic Fella

http://oddsonracing.com/img/AucklandReactor0051.jpg
Auckland Reactor



http://www.localstore.co.nz/stores/10686/opsm/

[Viv Strangman]

http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1371978709.jpghttp://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1176260742.jpgNot even a good attempt Jamie. Trying to compare an airbrushed promo photo after he's finished racing and furnished into a sire and one of Auckland Reactor as a 4yr old 20 minutes after he has won an Inter -Dominion heat at the Gold Coast is misleading even for you. Here's a photo of what he looked like when he was a 3yr old and AR when he was a 3yr old. The other photo I was referring to is one taken when he was retired. It is not a stud promo photo just one of him in a paddock. Have it for you tomorrow.

[LisaB25]

considering AF has 2 grp 1 winners and 9 indivdual winners from just the 15 starters to date is not a bad effort IMO, considering some of the other top rank sires have sired 2 or 3 times more and sit around the same mark is a good start and at a reasonable fee, should see him cover a decent book of mares this season.
Another nice gelding over here that has won 2 of his 3 is kimba bay, won well again saturday night beating the pearl winner swagga..

[Richard prior]

Mindarrie Priddy won again last night and looks a cut above a very good batch of 2 yr old fillies. The picture that VVV posted is exactly what Artistic Fella looks like in the Flesh. Kimba bay also went super at Bunbury last week, so it's all looking very promising for AF. Allamerican Ingot is also doing a very good job over in the West.

[mightymo]

It's still early days, but Shadow Play has really started his siring career with a big bang. His progeny won 2 out of the 3 70K Ontario Sires stakes overnight. A Mach Three colt won the other heat

[Gtrain]

It's still early days, but Shadow Play has really started his siring career with a big bang. His progeny won 2 out of the 3 70K Ontario Sires stakes overnight. A Mach Three colt won the other heat

He's a cracking type. I love black horses for no particular reason. Few new sires announced this week or about to be. We will see to Warwick, Smiling Shard to Alabar and Lanercost reportedly to Yiribee. What's everyone's thoughts?

[Richard prior]

Real good selection of quality racehorses as potential stallions. Shadow Play was awesome winning The Little Brown Jug and this was after splitting his hoof quite badly in the 1st heat.

[Triple V]

We have a Shadow Play colt, first foal of Demi Plie, a Shark Gesture daughter of Talilia.
Type wise, he is outstanding.
For the record, his sire is the best looking Standardbred that I've ever seen. Absolute cracker.

[mightymo]

Another 3 heats of the Ontario sires stakes today, this time for 2yo fillies. In heat 1, a Santanna Blue Chip filly wins with Shadow Plays running 2nd and 3rd. In heat 2, Shadow Plays ran 1st and 2nd with a Major in Art filly 3rd. In heat, 3 a Shadow Play filly called Book Babe was ultra impressive winning by 6 lengths.

I think im going to be sending quite a few mares to Shadow Play this year!!!

[Gtrain]

He's certainly making a real fist of things! I'm not attempting to knock at all, just curious, what other sires are eligible for Ontario SS?

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=mightymo;27423]Another 3 heats of the Ontario sires stakes today, this time for 2yo fillies. In heat 1, a Santanna Blue Chip filly wins with Shadow Plays running 2nd and 3rd. In heat 2, Shadow Plays ran 1st and 2nd with a Major in Art filly 3rd. In heat, 3 a Shadow Play filly called Book Babe was ultra impressive winning by 6 lengths.

I think im going to be sending quite a few mares to Shadow Play this year!!![/QUOTE

Shadow Play is now the leading $$$ winning 2yo Sire in North America this season.

[mightymo]

He's certainly making a real fist of things! I'm not attempting to knock at all, just curious, what other sires are eligible for Ontario SS?

Im not certain, but I think it is similar to the Vicbred system, in that the eligible progeny of any stallion based in Ontario as well as progeny of any stallion where the mare was served and foaled in Ontario.

I say that as I saw Somebeachsomewhere have a starter in the heats. Others stallions I saw were Artistic Fella, Santanna Blue Chip, Major in Art, Stonebridge Regal, Badlands Hanover, Jeremes Jet, Mach Three

[Triple V]

...also Camluck, Mister Big, Dali & No Pan Intended.

[Triple V]

Shadow Play's oldest foals are 2-year-olds in 2013.
Sire of 1 in 1:53, 5 in 1:55, 6 in 1:57, 9 in 1:59 including
ALIBI SEELSTER (f, Alias Seelster) p, 2, 1:53.3s -'13 ($43,000) 2 wins. Now 2, winner of Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
SHADOWBRIAND (g, Roman Art) p, 2, 1:54.4s -'13 ($37,960) 1 win. Now 2, winner of Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
BOOK BABE (f, Attack The Books) p, 2, 1:52.4s -'13 ($35,000) 1 win. Now 2, winner of Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
ARTHUR BLUE CHIP (c, Advantest) p, 2, 1:53.4s -'13 ($35,000) 1 win. Now 2, winner of Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
Performing Art (f, Artacam Hanover) p, ($21,500). Now 2 and race timed in p, 1:54.1s. Now 2, second in Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
YOSELIN SEELSTER (f, Yankee Athena) p, 2, 1:57.1f -'13 ($19,500) 1 win. Now 2, second in Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
NEFERTITI BLUECHIP (f, Rising Sun) p, 2, 1:56.1s -'13 ($16,400) 1 win. Now 2, third in Ontario Sires Stake Gold Leg leg at Mohawk.
REASONABLE FORCE (c, Jk Hello Dolly) p, 2, 1:54.4s -'13 ($7,500) 1 win. Now 2, winner of ONSS Grassroots div at Mohawk.
Settlemoir Hanover (c, Shades Of Art) p, ($3,500). Now 2 and race timed in p, 1:54.4s.
SILVERHILL SHADOW (c, Ruthie Jane) p, 2, 1:58.2h -'13 ($2,430) 1 win. Now 2, winner of IB - Callbeck S. leg at Summerside.
Twin B Shadow (c, Stryper) p, 2, Q2:00.3h -'13 ($1,800). Now 2, third in ONSS Grassroots div at Mohawk.
Shadoky (g, Kitty Hawk Killean) p, ($350). Now 2 and qualified in p, 2:04h.
Warrawee Phoebe (f, Just Warrawee) p, ($320). Now 2 and qualified in p, 1:58.2s.
Shadversary (c, Lady Luvs Diamonds) p, ($126). Now 2 and race timed in p, 2:03.4h.
Courageous C (c, Rain Maiden) p, 2, Q2:03h -'13 ($100) 1 win.

[Triple V]

These pics are courtesy of Vicki Wright & were originally posted on my Facebook page.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p480x480/971323_10151705351124901_942506969_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/p480x480/421866_10151705348214901_2065896758_n.jpg

We Will See p,4,1:47.2 ($2,549,409), one of the fastest and richest sons of Western Hanover. His service has been set at A$3,950 including GST.

[LisaB25]

Nice type..who's his dam and what's her breeding

[Richard prior]

Aberdakara by Abercrombie.Lisa, of interest to you is that a couple of Shadow Play's young ones above, are from Artsplace mares.

[Triple V]

G'day Lisa,
It's actually branch of Adios Betty's family through Tarport Martha. Same one that produced Dontgetinmyway, Historic, Magical Mike etc.
We Will See's dam is by Abecrombie, 2nd dam is Racing Date by Race Time, 3rd dam is Tarport Martha by O'Brien Hanover from Adios Betty.
Depends on where you want to cut it off but you could probably say that the bulk of the 'modern' Maternal family traces to/starts with Shy Ann.
The wider maternal family that spreads out from her has been responsible for a host of terrific racehorses including Beach Towel, Ready To Rumble, T K's Skipper, Topnotcher, Covert Action, Expensive Scooter and Bill Haughton's great filly Caressable.
In this part of the world the family has produced Nearea Franco, Northview Punter, the Cam Fella sire Exotic Earl and one time Australian Leading Sire, Atashy.

[Richard prior]

Oops, Sorry Lisa, I had the wrong maternal Family. Thanks Triple.

[LisaB25]

Thanks..will add him to my list of possible choices! Reasonably priced too

[Gtrain]

After looking at replays he appears to possess a wicked turn of foot. Very well gaited, free flowing action. Another champion free for aller gracing our shores as a sire.

[mightymo]

Very interested to hear any comments on how the first crop of Sportswriter yearlings have broken in and are progressing

[Triple V]

Very interested to hear any comments on how the first crop of Sportswriter yearlings have broken in and are progressing

[VVV] Gday Harvey,
Saw a cracking Sportswriter colt at Riverstone last week.
Dave MacGill (sp?) has him, his wife was actually driving the horse in trackwork, Dave was driving another young one. Sportswriter colt was a ball tearer, a very good type & absolutely GREAT gaited. Worked well, very willing.

[Richard prior]

Shadow Plays early figures... 20 starters.. 16 winners..5 in 1.55 (2 from Artsplace mares)

[strong persuader]

Very interested to hear any comments on how the first crop of Sportswriter yearlings have broken in and are progressing
I have broken in two Sportswriters at home, seen two where I work. Interestingly all fillies.

All four are excellent types, very athletic in appearance, and have a very attractive way of moving. One out at work has a stride length that is phenomenal. I have even told a few people that it may be an early call but I really like the Sportswriters and that he may be one of the better sires about.

[Triple V]

Shadow Play got another ONSS 2yo filly winner yesterday @ Georgian Downs, Lady Shadow (from a Camluck mare) She won by 2 & a half in 1:56.3.

Leading Money Winning Sires - 2 Year Old Pace (2013)

03-jul-2013 StartersSire in 2013 Money==== ======== =====
SHADOW PLAY 23 $238,676
BETTORS DELIGHT 30 $167,193
AMERICAN IDEAL 18 $147,889
ART MAJOR 24 $140,102
SOMEBEACHSOMEWHERE 33 $118,696
MACH THREE 22 $71,610
WESTERN TERROR 25 $59,889
MISTER BIG 18 $58,481
IF I CAN DREAM 20 $50,316
ROCKNROLL HANOVER 23 $48,605
DUNESIDE PERCH 24 $46,553
ARTISTIC FELLA 20 $44,600
SANTANNA BLUE CHIP 9 $42,260
ART OFFICIAL 12 $33,102
MAJOR IN ART 14 $32,245
FOUR STARZZZ SHARK 12 $30,649
DALI 8 $30,165
WESTERN IDEAL 8 $29,850
SAND SHOOTER 18 $27,725
ALLAMERICAN NATIVE 12 $27,295

[Greg Hando]

Dick Adios also did a good job from this family

[LisaB25]

Another feature winner tonight for artistic fella with kimba bay taking out the 100k westbred classic @ gp.

[Triple V]

If I am not mistaken Lisa that's 3 x 2yo Group race winners from Artistic Fella's first crop of 80 foals. I think he is also due for another big race win tonight with Mindarie Priddy going in a heavy fav. Accordingly, old mate Viv appears to have ducked for cover...promised great pic of Auckland Reactor and all. Hmmmmmm. Inquiring minds want to know. Ground Control to Viv....come in Viv. :rolleyes:

[Viv Strangman]

Based in WA 3 weeks out of 4 at the moment and was at GP on Friday night. If you going to promote a sire by their performance in WA you are in a lot of trouble. The 2+3 yr olds that would be competitive in the eastern states that I have seen race here since the start of the year could be counted on one hand. And not one of them was WA bred. Alta Christano, Frith, Macha, Condrieu and John Of Arc are all 3yr olds who would be competitive anywhere. No 2yr old is close to the standard required to race in the age group classics in Sydney or Melbourne. The one horse Artistic Fella has from his first crop that is of the required standard gets beaten after a soft run in front last night. And in a 2:02 mr to boot.And Jamie I will post that photo for you. And I am still waiting for you to put your money up on how many mares AR will serve this year. Your on record as dying of shock if he served more than 20. I reckon 60+ in Aust to go with the 200+ in Nz. So show a bit of ticker and back your judgement. Amount of the bet is up to you.

[Toohard]

Based in WA 3 weeks out of 4 at the moment and was at GP on Friday night. If you going to promote a sire by their performance in WA you are in a lot of trouble. The 2+3 yr olds that would be competitive in the eastern states that I have seen race here since the start of the year could be counted on one hand. And not one of them was WA bred. Alta Christano, Frith, Macha, Condrieu and John Of Arc are all 3yr olds who would be competitive anywhere. No 2yr old is close to the standard required to race in the age group classics in Sydney or Melbourne. The one horse Artistic Fella has from his first crop that is of the required standard gets beaten after a soft run in front last night. And in a 2:02 mr to boot.And Jamie I will post that photo for you. And I am still waiting for you to put your money up on how many mares AR will serve this year. Your on record as dying of shock if he served more than 20. I reckon 60+ in Aust to go with the 200+ in Nz. So show a bit of ticker and back your judgement. Amount of the bet is up to you.

Gday Viv. Refer posts on other topics re Saturday night. The track was a mess Saturday night so the 2:02 mile rate not a guide. Also that horse had a cloud over during week. Look at its other runs for a guide as to how good it is.

[Viv Strangman]

Aware it was slushy Paul, but the following races went in 1:57 and 1:56mrs so it cant have been that bad. A couple of her early races show real class but the two since she came back from a spell haven't been as good. No question she is a quality filly.

[Toohard]

Aware it was slushy Paul, but the following races went in 1:57 and 1:56mrs so it cant have been that bad. A couple of her early races show real class but the two since she came back from a spell haven't been as good. No question she is a quality filly.

Hiya Viv. They both open company races though not 2yo fillies. At least one was over 1700 not 2200. Wasnt trying get in blue with you but we go melton every week and those conditions probably worst ever seen.

[Viv Strangman]

GiddayPaul, I can see from the video that conditions were off. As I see elsewhere on the site she hasn't been 100% and that run suggested something wasn't right.

[Triple V]

Viv, as given...some would argue rather erroneously, as you are to potting Artistic Fella, it comes as somewhat of a surprise that you've not yet highlighted the disparity between the good efforts thus far of members of his AUS crop & the rather slow start his 1st crop in the Northern Hemisphere, current season CAN 2yos, have made.
I thought you'd have been all over that like ravenous seagull swooping upon and ferociously seizing an errantly dropped hot chip. Are you perhaps feeling a little poorly? :confused: A recent Flu Shot playing havoc with the old immune system? :(

[Viv Strangman]

Jamie, way to early to make any judgement about North American 2yr olds as I'm sure your aware. Have a look in early October and that will give better idea of this year's crop. Still waiting for you to man up and accept the challenge to have a wager on the number of mares AR will serve this year in Aust. We both can't be right so put your money where your mouth is.

[Viv Strangman]

http://www.alabar.com.au/tasks/sites/alabar/cache/file/1B119CEA-E02B-44EE-997C96B273BC17A3_H304_W583.jpg
Jamie this is AR a week after being retired from racing. Looks great in that photo but will be so much better again when he has fully let down in 12 months time.

[Triple V]

Not on the same page, physically nor on the racetrack.

Need any more be said ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRAB0nkWNAE

...and just for good measure, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1blm8HWgo

Last but not least, courtesy of Jim Gillies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhoX-wwS-Dc

[Viv Strangman]

Glad you finally put up some of his races up. Was going to but I thought that would be a bit mean. In his ten straight in NJ I did struggle with the names of his opposition on raceday. The odd name I know but most are not exactly household names. When he did face the bigger names that year he lost as many as he won. When he did leave Nj as a 3yr old he lost his way to the winners circle completely. Four years on the track to earn his money and never set foot on a half mile track his whole career. And plenty of sires available that won more money in two seasons than he won in four. I was fortunate to be on course to see him run in the Breeders Crown as a 3yr old (Elim + final) and in my view he was very disappointing. Still if you want to breed to him, you go for it. Its all about judgement. Which brings us around to why you won't back yours with regards to how many mares AR would serve in Aust.I think you said you would be staggered if he covered 20 mares. Thats your judgement of where he sits in the marketplace. But you don't seem prepared to back your judgement. Self doubt is a terrible thing.

[LisaB25]

Another new sire to come down under this season after injury sees him retire
Betterthancheddar to stand at alabar
People's opinions on this fella ?

[Richard prior]

Hi Lisa, click on the USA icon, Betterthancheddar is mentioned in 1 of the Forums. Richard

[Viv Strangman]

[VVV] G'day Tony. I'd be very surpised if he served many mares here & by that I mean that if he exceeds 20 for mine he's doing well.
The reasons why the horse got his arse handed to him during the QLD ID and then got it handed to him again when he went to the US aside....I think it all comes down to the fact that if his connections had instead left Mark Purdon alone and allowed him to manage the horse's career...they'd have ended up with a much better result over the longer term.
Added to that....for crying out loud...the excuse machine that followed his every step, breath & crap. JESUS WEPT! If anyone set out to get the people to start shouting BULLSHIT! from the grandstands no better road map for achieving that could've possibly been produced.

Grant makes a very good point above.
Artistic Fella has made an excellent debut here and they give every indication to me that they will go on as 3yos & beyond.
Racehorse wise, no contest. Artistic Fella was the real deal, a 3-headed Gorilla. Auckland Reactor wouldn't have known which way he went. No contest there.
One thing though. Although all we have to judge a potential sire on when he heads to stud is of course his racetrack career, in the end they all become Non-Winners again in the Breeding Barn.
A truly great sire will overcome all, small books of mixed quality mares, a lack of opportunity for their progeny, the lot.
Consider Christian Cullen & Elsu as examples. Both terrific racehorses. Christian Cullen's initial opportunities were by no means luxurious but he overcame. Elsu's initial opportunities were far better in terms of overall mare quality and numbers but he did little or one nothing. They've either got it or they haven't.
Not a bad effort at all. Only 162 more than you thought he would get. The leading sire by number of mares bred. So much for having the finger on the pulse.

[Viv Strangman]

Viv I'm pretty sure Artistic Fella is still at Empire... Also, AR failed sensationally at two out of three places he went to. Mr FG failed at one out of three, and hardly as disgustingly as AR did he when he had heat applied. These things stick in Aussies minds. I thought 20 mares at best in Aus and NZ!

Whoops. Another one to have his finger on the pulse of Australian breeders.

[Gtrain]

Whoops. Another one to have his finger on the pulse of Australian breeders.

Good luck to all 180odd of them. Look forward to running past them.....

[Triple V]

Not a bad effort at all. Only 162 more than you thought he would get. The leading sire by number of mares bred. So much for having the finger on the pulse.

VVV-:confused: Apparently there are significantly more masochists in this Country than I thought there were. Between AUS and NZ the horse covered 392 mares at $3,000 a shot less discounts. Jesus wept. The upside of course is that, like Grant, I'm pleased that there'll be some 300 odd 2yos ours from the 2014/15 season foal crop that ours won't have to worry about come their 2016/17 season racetrack debuts.

[aussiebreno]

Grant and Jaimie, aren't you worried that with the advent of the Flying K, by 2016/17 there could only be short dog racing distances. If this eventuates then I reckon the Auckland Reactors might just have a fighting chance.

[Triple V]

...that the Horse served as many as he did is testimony to the efforts of the crew at Alabar to make it so.
When it comes to filling a debut sire's initial book/s they'll move Heaven and Earth to get it done. This is underlined once again by Betterthancheddar still serving 200+ between AUS and NZ despite not arriving and getting underway until late October. Btw.. THERE is a Horse that is going to make a splash.

[Triple V]

Grant and Jaimie, aren't you worried that with the advent of the Flying K, by 2016/17 there could only be short dog racing distances. If this eventuates then I reckon the Auckland Reactors might just have a fighting chance.

VVV- Some of your best work there Breno. Got 2 with the one rock. ;)

[Viv Strangman]

VVV- Some of your best work there Breno. Got 2 with the one rock. ;)

Notice all you knowledgeable gentlemen don't actually have a clue what you are talking about. In fact Jamie you said in one of your posts that you would be staggered if he served more than twenty. Only out by 162. I wondered if you had any knowledge of the breeding scene in Australia and now I know the answer.

[Viv Strangman]

Good luck to all 180odd of them. Look forward to running past them.....

Keep digging the hole. 182 Australian breeders don't know what their doing but you have got your finger on the pulse. Or conversely 182 Australian breeders know what their doing and you havn't got a clue. Whats the odds whose right.

[Gtrain]

Majority makes it the correct choice does it Viv? Time will tell.... Worked well for Germany...

[Triple V]

:confused: Ahuh. In recent years you guys haven't exactly covered yourselves in glory 'good judge' wise Viv. Your Countrymen rushed Elsu and also wrote off Courage Under Fire after 2 crops. Also bred substantial numbers of mares to Red River Hanover, Caprock, Andrel etc. How many of your own mares did you get in foal to AR?

[Viv Strangman]

:confused: Ahuh. In recent years you guys haven't exactly covered yourselves in glory 'good judge' wise Viv. Your Countrymen rushed Elsu and also wrote off Courage Under Fire after 2 crops. Also bred substantial numbers of mares to Red River Hanover, Caprock, Andrel etc. How many of your own mares did you get in foal to AR?

Was going early on but in the end left the mares in the paddock for a year and went and brought a weanling in stead. They are so cheap here at the moment. Have a look at next weeks weanlings in the all aged sale in Auckland.There will be heaps of cheapies, believe me. Like your list of Nevele R sires baring Elsu of course.. I have plenty more of their's to add if you want. They are finally starting to get involved with quality again with the likes of A Rock N Roll Dance but the last few years have certainly being dismal.

[hillbillydeluxe]

If a son of SBSW were to stand in NSW this season would you send a mare to him?

[eliteblood]

What an unbelievable mark Sportswriter is making as a sire in Canada.
On Monday, three Ontario Sires Stakes divisions were run for 2YO colts. Sportswriter provided all three winners as well as the quinella in one of the races.
Today, three filies divisions were run. Sportswriter improved on the previous effort, this time providing the three winners, the three second placegetters and two of the third placegetters.
Incredible !!!

[eliteblood]

If a son of SBSW were to stand in NSW this season would you send a mare to him?

I couldn't answer that question without knowing the individual horse and the service fee.
If it was Captaintreacherous for example and the fee was reasonable, the answer would be "yes".
At this point in time, I would suggest that being a son of SBSW would not be a selling point.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Hi Trevor,
The horses dam is shared by one of last years leading 2 yr old sires and top 2 at present 3 yr old sires in the States, Well Said.

[eliteblood]

Hi Trevor,
The horses dam is shared by one of last years leading 2 yr old sires and top 2 at present 3 yr old sires in the States, Well Said.

Very nice pedigree Michael

[Viv Strangman]

Hi Trevor,
The horses dam is shared by one of last years leading 2 yr old sires and top 2 at present 3 yr old sires in the States, Well Said.
Neither of the SBSW out of that mare have anywhere near the racetrack performance to warrant consideration as a sire. The days of importing sires who are beautifully bred with a quick time but no money are long gone

[hillbillydeluxe]

That's rather critical of a horse that only had 8 starts before injury and when he won it was in the snow. like a lot of horses we never get to see them extend any ability as there careers are short lived.

[hillbillydeluxe]

I kind of liken him to Dane Shadow in the thoroughbreds who took the siring caper well yet himself a reasonable horse but bred by Danehill/Slight Chance it seems as though the mare really came through on that pedigree.

[Viv Strangman]

You cannot compare thoroughbreds stallions with standardbred stallions for god's sake. They have no AI, no frozen semen and don't shuttle half their top stallions with a result that a lot of thoroughbred breeders breed to poorly performed half brothers to champions in the Southern Hemisphere with less than adequate results. Standardbred breeders have access to the very best stallions in the world. Why on earth would you want to breed to a poorly performed half brother to a champion when you can breed to the real thing. As I said earlier the days of breeding to horses such as the one you mentioned ended the day we started shuttling horses such as Mach Three and Art Major. You can't turn the clock back now.

[Richard prior]

Sorry Michael but I totally agree with Viv on this one, That would be turning back the clock for standardbred breeders, We have a choice of the very best stallions, Art Major, Mach Three, Bettor's Delight etc and performance on the track and in the barn makes a huge difference these days, In the past we would have had a choice of going to a lesser performed and well related stallion but mostly this turned into a disaster for a lot of breeders. I'm all for personal preference with stallion choices but when you have access to the very best, You increase the odds of breeding a very good horse.

[broco]

Have to agree with viv there you cant compare TB stallions to SB stallions in just doesnt work.
I think my all time favourite stallion christian cullen is a good example, he has 2 lesser performed full brothers in tiger woods and julius caesar, neither top sires like their brother although julius caesar has done a good job, the brother that won a race in tiger woods never got hot, there is also a half brother racing round bathurst hes by artsplace and gelded, just goes to show that even though your brother is a super star doesnt mean you deserve a shot as a sire.
I myself will stand a cullen son this season but im under no illusion that he may attract a single outside mare but he is perfect for my own mares, rather well performed, nz group winner, his sister is the dam of the all time great trotter in Lyell Creek, but his stand out qualities to me is a temperament to die for and the sensational good looks of his sire just in a bigger package, standing stallions is a very tough game and unless you have one of the top liners ready yourself for disappointment or breed for yourself and the outside mares are a bonus.

When the likes of sportswriter has done what he has with his 2yos and stands at a reasonable fee its gotta be good to compete

[hillbillydeluxe]

that doesn't make any sense- if they are genetically full brothers they have identical chromosomes etc the difference is the type of mares that book to them. in science any animal that shares identic blood would breed the same but horses are different as the same mare for example has not been to Christian Cullen and the Julius Caesar and the big difference is say Christian Cullen serves 100 mares and his fertility is 85% then 85 are foaled on the other hand Julius Caesar has much lower fertility at 65% and serves 100 mares he has 65 foaled approx. so numbers are different due to fertility.
The fact remains that the stallions that are full brothers are genetically the same have not served the same mares so you cannot compare results with progeny.
I am guessing Monique that you are standing Christian Fire? if so he just does not get sent mares of any quality which will reflect in progeny. As for saying breeding with better stallions you pay $9k for a good stallion or say $6k but its hypothetical on your belief as if a sire has never served any mares how can you predict his progeny.
The only relevance is what opportunity does he receive? any sire must get his chance with decent or quality mares to measure his worth.

[hillbillydeluxe]

Also in saying that Sportswriter has done what he has that is fantastic but how do we not know that a son of or a brother can not replicate. its just too hard to say that but as the better stallions also get the better quality mares yes it solidifies that they remain in the top bracket but you cannot judge any sire until he has served a book of mares as how can one predict what there progeny will do, no one has a crystal ball and if the industry won't support hobby breeders the commercial studs keep rolling on, everyone has to have individual choice.
You have an opinion and I have mine I am happy to breed my horses to whatever and you breed yours to your choice thats the simplicity in it,Yes its hard to stand a stallion but hey at least I will have a go and worst case scenario my mares will be served by my stallion which is not a bad thing as "I sing, I did it my way" good luck to whatever you choose.

[Viv Strangman]

that doesn't make any sense- if they are genetically full brothers they have identical chromosomes etc the difference is the type of mares that book to them. in science any animal that shares identic blood would breed the same but horses are different as the same mare for example has not been to Christian Cullen and the Julius Caesar and the big difference is say Christian Cullen serves 100 mares and his fertility is 85% then 85 are foaled on the other hand Julius Caesar has much lower fertility at 65% and serves 100 mares he has 65 foaled approx. so numbers are different due to fertility.
The fact remains that the stallions that are full brothers are genetically the same have not served the same mares so you cannot compare results with progeny.
I am guessing Monique that you are standing Christian Fire? if so he just does not get sent mares of any quality which will reflect in progeny. As for saying breeding with better stallions you pay $9k for a good stallion or say $6k but its hypothetical on your belief as if a sire has never served any mares how can you predict his progeny.
The only relevance is what opportunity does he receive? any sire must get his chance with decent or quality mares to measure his worth.
I am sorry Michael that is just not the way it works in the real world. The great stallions leave quality horses regardless of the quality of the mares. When Christian Cullen went to stud their was a real antipathy towards colonial bred stallions.His numbers and the quality of those mares was low initially but he left outstanding horses anyway. When he received bigger numbers and better quality, the resultant stock weren't any better than his initial stock.

[Viv Strangman]

Also in saying that Sportswriter has done what he has that is fantastic but how do we not know that a son of or a brother can not replicate. its just too hard to say that but as the better stallions also get the better quality mares yes it solidifies that they remain in the top bracket but you cannot judge any sire until he has served a book of mares as how can one predict what there progeny will do, no one has a crystal ball and if the industry won't support hobby breeders the commercial studs keep rolling on, everyone has to have individual choice.
You have an opinion and I have mine I am happy to breed my horses to whatever and you breed yours to your choice thats the simplicity in it,Yes its hard to stand a stallion but hey at least I will have a go and worst case scenario my mares will be served by my stallion which is not a bad thing as "I sing, I did it my way" good luck to whatever you choose.
I don't how long you have been in this industry Michael but the advice offered here is given with the best of intentions from a lot of people who have been there ,done that.
I have done something similar to what you are proposing.
In 1997 I managed a stallion in New Zealand called Make A Deal. He was a lovely looking individual and bred in the purple being by No Nukes from the brilliant mare Leah Almahurst $1,000,000+. He had run 1;50.2 and won $610,000 on the track. I worked my arse off and got him 100+ mares in his first year but got out after that as I didnt like the type of horse he was leaving. He stood four years in New Zealand and was a huge failure. He had one $100,000 winner from 293 live foals and his stock in general couldn't stay a yard. That caused me to have a real negative view when Make A Deals half brother went to stud in North America. I told everyone who would listen that there was no way he could succeed. Unfortunately for me, at last count his half brother Western Ideal had $92,000,000 on his card and counting.
There are no certainties in this industry but the old saying breed the best to the best and hope for the best has a lot going for it.

[broco]

How can you get christian fire from lyell creeks direct family?
As for he wont see quality my small band of mares are some that many big breeders envy so im sure even if he does only see my own mares if hes got it in him he'll have every chance to prove himself.
And as for the they are full brothers so given the same book they would have the same results thats been proven wrong so many times, as you like to compare to the thoroughbreds here is a great example lonhro and niello both given great starts to stud careers 1 succeeded and the other was very disappointing, so just because they are brothers does not give a horse a guarantee of being a good sire

[BenScadden]

Spot on, Viv. Experience tell us there's a good chance that a nicely related, moderately performed stallion will fail. That may be in part due to lack of opportunity but, as mentioned earlier, Cullen didn't serve top-shelf mares in his first seasons but still was a whacking success.

The reality - proven over and over again - is that full-brothers may be genetically identical ... but they don't produce identical performances (both on the track and in the breeding barn).

Certainly there's a science to breeding - but there's a whole lot more to it than that.

Michael, you were looking for feedback from people with experience in breeding. I think you've achieved your aim.

Good luck

[aussiebreno]

What mares would suit Alta Christiano?

[Viv Strangman]

What mares would suit Alta Christiano?
Interesting question Brendan. Here's my five cents worth. In Nz Christian Cullen mares have already had some big hits with Bettors Delight ( Highview Tommy--Ohoka Punter) so the reverse in the case of Alta Christiano of course would be a daughter of Bettors Delight.
The dam of Alta Christiano has had three nice foals which are by In The Pocket, Christian Cullen and Mach Three, all Direct Scooter line sires.
The dam Right This Time is by Fake Left. The best performer in Nz from a Fake Left mare as of today is Cyamach ($149,000) who is by Mach Three.
Therefore for me as both Bettors Delight and Fake Left are Cam Fella line sires and that cross with Direct Scooter has worked so well with this branch of the sires family, my first preference would be for mares by either of them followed by daughters of other Cam Fella line sires. Hope that makes sense.

[Triple V]

Full brothers aren't genetically identical. The only way they can be so is if they are identical twins that resulted from the splitting of a single Zygote.

[Triple V]

http://jcinternational.co.nz/stallions-sold/

2nd column. 4th from the bottom. ;)

[Triple V]

Also....BETTERTHANCHEDDAR to stand in AUS this season. Outstanding horse. Will do a great job here.

[eliteblood]

What an unbelievable mark Sportswriter is making as a sire in Canada.
On Monday, three Ontario Sires Stakes divisions were run for 2YO colts. Sportswriter provided all three winners as well as the quinella in one of the races.
Today, three filies divisions were run. Sportswriter improved on the previous effort, this time providing the three winners, the three second placegetters and two of the third placegetters.
Incredible !!!

There has now been 13 Ontario Sires Stakes Gold Series races and all 13 have incredibly been won by sons and daughters of Sportswriter. He is currently the leading 2YO sire in North America with progeny earnings of $535k, well clear of the 2nd placed Well Said on $360k.
He has had a good debut season in Australia being in 2nd place behind the perennial Art Major. If his Canadian results are anything to go by there may be even better times ahead.

[Viv Strangman]

There has now been 13 Ontario Sires Stakes Gold Series races and all 13 have incredibly been won by sons and daughters of Sportswriter. He is currently the leading 2YO sire in North America with progeny earnings of $535k, well clear of the 2nd placed Well Said on $360k.
He has had a good debut season in Australia being in 2nd place behind the perennial Art Major. If his Canadian results are anything to go by there may be even better times ahead.
I think you need to wait a lot longer than July. Sportswriter is in Canada and that unfortunately is now a poor relative in the North American harness racing scene. They run their sires stakes earlier than the rest so the siring charts mean nothing at this time of year. The major players are all in New York or Pennsylvania. All their sires stakes are just getting under way now. Like Shadow Play last year, Sportswriter is a big fish in a wee pond. Now if on the other hand they can be competitive in the major stakes races coming up, then you can sit up and take notice. Until then all you can say is he has done a nice job with the largest crop in North America from some of the nicest mares in the stud book. A better guide will be in October when the siring charts are a lot more meaningful than they are now.

[eliteblood]

I think you need to wait a lot longer than July. Sportswriter is in Canada and that unfortunately is now a poor relative in the North American harness racing scene. They run their sires stakes earlier than the rest so the siring charts mean nothing at this time of year. The major players are all in New York or Pennsylvania. All their sires stakes are just getting under way now. Like Shadow Play last year, Sportswriter is a big fish in a wee pond. Now if on the other hand they can be competitive in the major stakes races coming up, then you can sit up and take notice. Until then all you can say is he has done a nice job with the largest crop in North America from some of the nicest mares in the stud book. A better guide will be in October when the siring charts are a lot more meaningful than they are now.

All that you say is true Viv and I am not suggesting that he will be leading sire at the end of the year. Taking all that into account, however, the performance of Sportswriter up there to date has still been incredible IMO. While Ontario is not New York or Pennsylvania, the wee pond does include Camluck and Mach Three. To totally shut them out like he has is noteworthy.

[Viv Strangman]

All that you say is true Viv and I am not suggesting that he will be leading sire at the end of the year. Taking all that into account, however, the performance of Sportswriter up there to date has still been incredible IMO. While Ontario is not New York or Pennsylvania, the wee pond does include Camluck and Mach Three. To totally shut them out like he has is noteworthy.
For the first few months last season in Canada, Shadow Play did a very similar job winning everything going but not outside the sires stakes series in Canada. So far Sportswriter has done exactly the same. Now if Sportswriter takes that on to the big stage in the classics then it becomes note worthy.
I mean New York has Bettors Delight, Art Major, Rocknroll Heaven and American Ideal. Now thats competition.
Camluck hasn't registered on two year old sires list for ages and Mach Three has been mid field for a while as well. Not benchmarks you want to use in North America when looking at two year olds these days.
Canada results are not a good yardstick for stallions since the loss of the pokie money.
Sportswriter got a huge book of quality mares in his first year at stud and he does have the biggest crop of 2 year olds in North America.
As I said wait until October and you will have a much better idea of how he rates.

[eliteblood]

Apologies if I misled anyone by suggesting that siring the winners (and most of the placegetters) of all 13 Gold Series Sires Stakes races is an incredible achievement. Anywhere.
It is nothing really - happens all the time.
Viv might be able to tell us about some of the other occasions when it has happened in the past.

[Viv Strangman]

If you were to stand Sportswriter in South Australia you would get the same result from standing him in Canada.
Complete domination of a weak sires stakes programme.
If people don't realise how weak Canada has become then yes you are misleading them.
As I have said several times already, until they compete against the best it is impossible to draw any conclusions about how good the Sportswriters are.

[eliteblood]

If you were to stand Sportswriter in South Australia you would get the same result from standing him in Canada.


If Mach Three, Camluck, Shadow Play, Jereme's Jet, Artistic Fella and Badlands Hanover also stood in South Australia, I would bet against Meadow Skipper siring 13 out of 13 sires stakes winners.

[Viv Strangman]

What about him standing with any of the following; Art Major - American Ideal - Bettors Delight - Rocknroll Heaven - Well Said - Somebeachsomewhere - Western Ideal
to mention just a few.
In a different league to whats standing in Canada.
When the Sportswriters can compete with those stallions then he has made it.
That meeting is going to happen in the not to distant future so all the questions will be answered.
He could be the real deal but we won't know until the classics are run.
And Trev if you want to have a look at what a dominant first season sire looks like in a competitive state, check out the 2012 Pennsylvania Sires Stakes program.

[Danno]

If you were to stand Sportswriter in South Australia you would get the same result from standing him in Canada.
Complete domination of a weak sires stakes programme.
If people don't realise how weak Canada has become then yes you are misleading them.
As I have said several times already, until they compete against the best it is impossible to draw any conclusions about how good the Sportswriters are.

I am no genius breeder, but I remember when the first Fake Left crop were dominating the 2YO races in queensland and one of my friends in the game stated how well Fake Left was going, I also remember how I flippantly dismissed the results as nothing much as it was only Queensland..............how wrong I was, Fake Left turned out to be the best sire in Australia, so far in my lifetime, as Globe Derby was gone when I was born in 1958.

I'm not saying Sportswriter is the next Fake Left or Globe Derby, just saying better to let the marbles roll before you make a goose of yourself as I did about Fake Left all those years ago.

cheers,
Dan

[eliteblood]

Hi Dan,
I'm not saying Sportswriter is the next Fake Left either. I was merely applauding the outstanding result that he has achieved to date in Ontario this year. Not everyone it seems is prepared to acknowledge his absolute domination of the sires stakes as being anything special.

[Danno]

Exactly Trevor,

cheers,
Dan

[Messenger]

It was a Positive post Trev and definitely of interest. Overall our board needs more positive. Not referring to this forum so much but our Aussie board which has a bit of a negative flavour running. Apologies by the way if my Facepalm Horse Names thread seems negative but it is meant to be a bit of fun and to compliment the Brilliant Names thread

[Triple V]

4 divisions of the $200,200 Clyde Hirt...2 winners incl a quinella plus a 2nd & 3rd in a further div. Filly from Sayo Hanover (winner 1st div.) looks extremely talented.

[eliteblood]

4 divisions of the $200,200 Clyde Hirt...2 winners incl a quinella plus a 2nd & 3rd in a further div. Filly from Sayo Hanover (winner 1st div.) looks extremely talented.

Look out Sportswriter. Here comes the charge that Vivienne was talking about :-)

[Toohard]

It is nothing really - happens all the time.
Viv might be able to tell us about some of the other occasions when it has happened in the past.

Gday Trevor. My research department tells me that it has happened NEVER

[eliteblood]

Gday Trevor. My research department tells me that it has happened NEVER

Hi Paul. I think your research department is probably right.

[eliteblood]

The Sportswriter charge hasn't slowed down at all.
Today he provided the trifecta in the $138k Battle of the Belles at Grand River Raceway as well as the two placegetters in the $217k Battle of Waterloo.
He still leads the 2YO earnings list with progeny earnings of $1045k, more than $500k clear of the 2nd placed Betters Delight.

[eliteblood]

A quote by Murray Brown of Hanover Shoe Farms

"I don't think I've ever seen the dominance by a single stallion like Sportswriter is doing in Ontario since the days of Adios in the 50s and 60s."

[Triple V]

Murray on the money as always. Love your work Trev. One hopes The Phantom has taken note. ;-)

[Triple V]

SPORTSWRITER- Nthn/Sthn Hemisphere combined...74 2yo winners & $1,943,321 earned.
I wonder what THE GHOST WHO WALKS thinks of those numbers?

[Richard prior]

74 2yr old winners is staggering and the season hasn't finished yet.

[Gtrain]

Art Majors fee may be readjusted after tonight. Wow. Major and Bettors sweep the semis. 5-3 Major. Incredible.

[Messenger]

Very observant Gt - amazing to think 2 sires won all 8 semis

[Triple V]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLQSFLn-8w&feature=youtube_gdata_player

By Sportswriter

[Greg Hando]

Yes he is certainly doing a great job both places.

[eliteblood]

Art Majors fee may be readjusted after tonight. Wow. Major and Bettors sweep the semis. 5-3 Major. Incredible.

Outstanding careers by these two stallions in USA, NZ and Australia. It is amazing that 10-12 years into their careers they are still so dominant. Their influence on our breed has been dramatic and will be felt for many years to come.

[Messenger]

Art Majors fee may be readjusted after tonight. Wow. Major and Bettors sweep the semis. 5-3 Major. Incredible.

and they each sired two second place-getters to further prove their potency