Stud Owners

[Don Corleone]

As I sit and ponder another upcoming breeding season and work out where my 3 mares are to head, are there any stallion owners out there about REDUCE their stud fee? C'mon guys nows the time to let us all know......................who's going to be first.:D

[Greg Hando]

I,ll lower my service fee but the old girl still won,t come at it

[mango]

Hi Don

You would have to think some studs would have room to lower some stallion service fee's as when the deals were done for the stallions the Aussie $$$ was in the mid 80 cent bracket and now with the $$$ at level or if not better then the US this should make a difference. Don try and send your mare's to the one stud if at all possible and you tell them what deal your looking for with in reason as i think some studs are opening more up to deals and even paying them off, if i'm correct Don i think you posted a while ago that some studs were willing to let you pay of service fee's or even pay on 7 day live foal so that might be something to look at which might allow you to spend a little bit more on a service as you know you have longer to pay for the service.

[nat]

Hi Mango & Don

This is something the Thoroughbred side do well barter and deals on service fee's

[Greg Hando]

If you go on the US and Canadian web sites you can see what service fee they are at this year over there compared to here some are about the same and other's are 2-4000 higher here

[mango]

Take a look at Mach 3 and look at the service fee difference, IT'S A JOKE.

[Greg Hando]

Also Lis Mara is a bit of difference

[mango]

Lis Mara is about $1500 difference but he is still priced at a reasonable fee out here, where as Mach 3 is $13,750 here in Aus and $7,500 in Canada which is $6,250 difference and besides being over priced out here his semen is crap and he has trouble getting mare's in foal and i think who ever stands Mach 3 this year will have to look at his service fee because if not changed he will struggle.

[nat]

Hi Winston & Mango

Lis Mara really only has around 200 live foals on the ground in 3 years of foaling with a $1500 mark up unlike Mach Three full book and $6250 mark up. I can live with a $1500 mark up (they do have to make up costs) the price you sometimes pay for a commodity. But in saying that in the US the syndicate rules the price and the limit of services to protect a commodity at the sales, when they come to the southern hemisphere its open slather that begs to ask the question what would be the opinion if Art Major and the like served only say a book of 120-140 mare limits and for no other reason than to have a precious commodity at the sales would you be happy to pay $12-20,000 service fee's knowing that there would be less opposition at the sales.

[mango]

Hi Nat

In the breeding season just gone Art Major stood at $12000 and was only serving 150 mare's and returns from the year before so that might answer your question you just asked. Yes Lis Mara hasn't served big numbers but i think he could be value for money and they sold well. The only reason Mach 3 is fully booked is that they don't allow big numbers as it normally takes mare's 2-3 time's to get in foal as his semen is very average. And to why his fee is so high is beyond me they were pretty quick to jack his fee up as his stock were going good but it didn't change over there so to me what they can't make out of serving mare's over there they are chasing over here. Mach 3 is still open over there at the present time and as a guess i don't think he will fill.

[triplev123]

If various Studs down here were to voluntarily limit the books of some of their sires & advertise their fees on that basis then that would be fine.
I do however have a very big problem with legislated book limits in this marketplace...especially by way of the fact that only a minority of foals bred every season in Australia will see a sale ring.
I very much doubt it's ever going to happen because the slab of off-season income that the Northern Hemisphere Farms/Syndicates receive from the Southern Hemisphere activities of their sires is money for Jam, they all know that.
Furthermore, while they will not come out and say as much publicly, because of the fact that over & above the $ paid for the Southern Hemisphere Rights nearly all of these high profile horses are standing on the ongoing basis of a % of Southern Hemisphere generated income being repatriated to the US Syndicates. As such they're more than happy for their sires to come down here and hit every mare that moves because it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the US Yearling Sale Market. They're on an earner to nothing.
Don't be fooled by the tut-tutting that goes on from time to time out of the US with regard to some shuttle sires hitting big Southern Hemisphere books. It is just window dressing for the US marketplace. Those crazy Southern Hemisphere Farms are at it again. Behind the scenes though, the syndicates are just like everyone else in business. They're all rubbing their hands together with glee and thanking the Lord above for their good-fortune.

[nat]

Yes (I tried several times to him) but with returns there is still potential that the stars align and he could end up with 200+ foals on the ground with 20-30 misses(My question was purely hypothetical and I could have most likely put it a different way, what if they were capped from the start 120-140 including returns maybe a little over and you knew that every year that was your competition at the sales would that make them woth it at the higher service fee's)

Yes Lis Mara was a real racehorse with some good blood behind him has it all there to make it as a stallion and there are a few more out there that just need a chance

[nat]

Hi Triplev123

I don't believe in stallion limit either just a provocative question I put out there, and you right it's money for jam for these syndicates sending their prized stallions down here on the off season 15- 20 years ago they would have been just standing around in the paddock getting fat. I don't know why some of the big named stallions and studs have refused to come down here in the past knowing this like Hanover Shoe Farm

.

[triplev123]

G'day Nat,

Indeed. I've always been certain that Dragon Again would fire on all cylinders here. At the very least I wish that Hanover would send some frozen semen down. If he's not a sire/if that's not a sireline that would be successful in Australia I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes...and let me tell you, they're damned festy old foot coverings. There are 2 sons of DA here in Oz at the moment, Sutter Hanover and Moon Beam. It'll be interesting to see how they shape up.

[nat]

Yeh I always hoped and prayed that Cams Card Shark would come down under a top racehorse (well bred) sire of real racehorse and sires of sires and to boot only stands for $7500 in the US only thing now he's getting on would have loved to see him here 10 years ago.

[mango]

Hi Triple/Nat

I agree with you both as they are 2 great stallion's and without knowing the logistics of bringing frozen semen over it's a wonder more studs aren't doing it. Hanover Shoe Farm send Western Ideal and SBSW down here so it's a wonder they don't have a deal with a stud where the stallion's that don't come out here they send frozen semen over instead. So that way you would have access to Dragon Again, Cams Card Shark and Well Said just to name a few and then there's the Trotters they have such as Andover Hall, Donato Hanover, Explosive Matter and Cantab Hall and i'm not to sure if any of these trotters are already available via frozen semen at the present time.

[triplev123]

Real racehorses indeed. Another terrific influence, an unbroken line from Meadow Skipper through to Cam's Card Shark & at every step of the way it's sireline that has always worked here...sons of Most Happy Fella, sons of Cam Fella, now sons of Cam's Card Shark. Next season you'lll have access to Bettor's Delight, Four Starzzz Shark and Shark Gesture as well.

[triplev123]

Some horses may be EVA positive Mango so that pens them straight away, shuttle or frozen.

[mango]

Yes thats true they could be EVA positive and there are probably a lot of other reasons why they can't or won't send frozen over, even a sire such as Camluck would of been good to have access to his semen.

[triplev123]

I'm almost certain Camluck is EVA.

[mango]

Well that rule's him out, what a pitty.

[nat]

What stallions would you like to see out here in the flesh or even available frozen semen

[nat]

Another provocative question (not saying it would or will ever happen or work with investment made by studs on buying stallions and it hurting their investments, boy I have visions of the government stepping into the dockyards again in saying this)

What be your thought on the controlling body getting involved in bringing out a stallion to boost the breed along maybe even subsidized fees?

I think mainly in the line of the top trotting stallion like a Muscles Yankee, Credit Winner and the Halls- Angus,Andover,Conway where the stud fee for the finest trotters are normally in the top echelon of service fees of the breed and not really a commercial decision in the southern hemisphere. We have all seen the deeds of Muscle Yankee in his small contribution to the southern hemisphere

[buster]

western ideal would be amazing if he could be 13k fresh

[nat]

Hi buster

And a boost to the industry with a flow on effect with broodmares and stallion prospects coming from within our country

[triplev123]

G'day Nat,

The unproven brigade aside, from the proven group I don't know if there's all that much that could reasonably be added really.
If you look at the US 2010 3yo Sires Earnings List we're pretty well served. Of the top 20, 12 are or will be or have been available here at one time or another. Western Hanover is deceased, Cambest is well past it and as I said before Camluck's EVA I think so in effect we have/had access to 12 of the top 17 possibles & I wouldn't mind betting that a few of the non-availables are also EVA so that would further narrow the numbers.
Edit [FORGET IT...tried sending a table too...absolute debacle.] As I said before, Dragon Again would be good and maybe Real Artist...you'd think he'd go well here too. From that point onwards...I'm drawing a bit of a blank. On the unproven roster, Well Said aside, I think we've aleeady got or we soon will have access to pretty much every half decent horse there is going.

[nat]

I think we do alright now it just one of those dream away things like when we finally got access to Artsplace down here, he might had been past it on cutting edge but I sure would love one or two of his mares floating around

[mango]

Well Said for sure, he had the looks, pedigree and race track performance to go with it. Has been fully booked since entering stud and again was booked early this year, he should get every chance to make a stallion as he would get some of the best mare's at Hanover Shoe farms. Just a question on Well Said when watching him race and even in some photo's you see an orange towel looking thing under his tail was he a windsucker or is there another explanation.

[buster]

triple v those 5 extra stallions if available in a perfect world would be the difference between the top sires being 12-5k and being 8-10k

[triplev123]

That's true to some extent Buster...fees wise the more the merrier because it does exert some downward pressure, but at the very top end of the market there will always be a demand for some level of exclusivity. It also makes me wonder...at what point do we reach saturation? if we have not done so already.
The competition is pretty damned fierce as it is & it's set to escalate again this coming season. Maybe some of the more marginal performers numbers wise might not return this year to be replaced by others but nevertheless. My initial reaction is that there can't possibly be enough Breeders out there in AUS & NZ combined that are willing to pay some of the fees being proposed in order to fill the books of, or at least give some sort of reasonable patronage to, the number of sires that will be available.
In saying that, I've predicted some correction for quite a few seasons now and it is yet to come. It may never do so. In fact if anything it has largely gone the other way.
For an explanation of that I go back again to the number of foals bred and sold at Sales here in Oz versus the number that are retained and raced by their breeders. The basic 75/25 split in favour of the breed to race brigade speaks volumes as to who it is out there in Breeder Land that is willing to pay the higher fees.
The Sales Breeders make a lot of noise with regard to fees and rightly so because in that section of the business the margins are often so tight...but the breed to race crew just line up on the best horse they can afford & fire away and that's where the $$$ lies because they make up 3/4's of the business.

[nat]

Hi trplev123

Just looking at the breading stats for NZ and I'm with you on hard to predict stallions that should be booked wernt, stallions serving large numbers that left me thinking why? was it the price/emerging stars or a new stallion in town those Kiwi's are pretty savey on the breeding side of things.

[mango]

Hey Triple

Any chance you know the answer to my question about Well Said.

Well Said for sure, he had the looks, pedigree and race track performance to go with it. Has been fully booked since entering stud and again was booked early this year, he should get every chance to make a stallion as he would get some of the best mare's at Hanover Shoe farms. Just a question on Well Said when watching him race and even in some photo's you see an orange towel looking thing under his tail was he a windsucker or is there another explanation.

[nat]

Hey mango

That red flap thing on Well Said looks like a No Shitz maybe what AR needs at the moment I could be wrong but it looks to big to be anything else

[mango]

Hi Nat

Thanks for that as it had me thinking, ive seen people try all different things with suckers from deep heat to chain.

[triplev123]

Wouldn't have a clue what it's called Mango. Have seen such things employed over the years, not so often these days, used to see it every so often years ago...and they used to knock them up out of cast-off ladies stockings as I recall. Whatever it is it has something to do with the form and function of old mate's Crunker and seeing as how I'm off to Sushi Bay in about 2 hrs time I'd prefer not to go too deeply into what it's for if it is all the same with you. :(

[mango]

Hey Triple

No problem it just had me puzzled and like they say if you don't ask you might never know.

[triplev123]

You've got better/more observant eyes than me mate. Up until you pointed it out I'd never even noticed it..and I watched all of his major races.

[mango]

I noticed it his 3yr old year it could of been there in his 2yr old year not sure havn't gone back over the replays, didn't really think about it untill we started talking about stallion's on our wish list and when Well Said was mentioned i went back through my Hoof Beats mags and as it's bright orange and the horse is dark in colour it stands out like dogs balls. If you get the chance Triple go back and watch a few replays and let me know what you reckon.

[Greg Hando]

It's to stop the shit from hitting you in the face it will not stop a windsucker a chain, stitching for a mare or a plug is the only way to stop windsucker's but for it their is no cure

[Love Of Courage]

Hello Triplev123,

Couldn't agree more with you regarding Dragon Again. After Courage Under Fire, Dragon Again would be my next favourite stallion.

I have contacted Hanover Shoe Farms directly regarding frozen semen from Dragon Again and unfortunately like some other stallions, his semen does not freeze well. I had considered buying a mare in the US not in foal and getting the mare bred to Southern Hemisphere time. Unfortunately this is not acceptable to the stud managers. Another option may be to get a mare in foal to him & bring her over in foal. At some of the yearling sales quite a few well bred Dragon Again yearlings sold for reasonably low prices. The killer is the cost $20,000 approx to bring a horse from the US to Aus.

[mango]

Hi Love of Courage

If you could pick up a well bred yearling that would be the go that way you can race it first and hopefully recoup some money. You should talk to a few studs who bring stallions out and see if they can get it a bit cheaper when bringing multiple horses out at one time.

[eliteblood]

Hello Triplev123,

I had considered buying a mare in the US not in foal and getting the mare bred to Southern Hemisphere time. Unfortunately this is not acceptable to the stud managers. Another option may be to get a mare in foal to him & bring her over in foal. At some of the yearling sales quite a few well bred Dragon Again yearlings sold for reasonably low prices. The killer is the cost $20,000 approx to bring a horse from the US to Aus.


An additional cost involved with importing a pregnant mare from the US to Australia is that she has to be quarantined until after the foal is born.

[mango]

Hi Eliteblood

I don't know anything about the quarantine laws so could you please explain why a mare has to stay quarantined untill the foal is born.

[eliteblood]

Unless the rules have since been relaxed, and I doubt it, I imported a pregnant mare in 2000 and that is what I had to do.
An alternative was to bring her to NZ, let her foal there, and then bring them both to Australia.

[triplev123]

After their usual post entry Quarantine period is up you can actually take the mare out of the facility and foal her down at home if you have 'Quarantine Approved' premises but being granted that status can be and most often is a a nice old Pig in a Poke in itself.

[eliteblood]

That is exactly what I did - double fenced a paddock with dogproof fencing and had it approved by AQIS.

[triplev123]

The current regulations applying to importing pregnant mares are nothing short of absurd, IMO. Once they have done their time in Quarantine then they should be released forthwith.

[Flashing Red]

I stand to be corrected, but some who wanted to bring back their mare last year wanted to bring her back in foal to Rocknroll Hanover but was told that pregnant mares could no longer fly to Australia. I'm not sure how true this is, but this was a very nice mare and the people that own here aren't dummys.

Does anyone know for sure??

[eliteblood]

I stand to be corrected, but some who wanted to bring back their mare last year wanted to bring her back in foal to Rocknroll Hanover but was told that pregnant mares could no longer fly to Australia. I'm not sure how true this is, but this was a very nice mare and the people that own here aren't dummys.

Does anyone know for sure??

Pregnant mares can be imported from the USA to Australia up until 7 months pregnant. They must then be held in an approved quarantine facility until after they foal.

[Flashing Red]

Thanks :) , so it would be better to import as close to the 7 months as possible to spend the least time in quarantine then, I take it?

[eliteblood]

I have an idea that the same regulations do not apply in NZ and that importing the mare to NZ, letting her foal there and then importing mare and foal from NZ may be a workaround option.