Pacing Legends

[Mighty Atom]

Not much going on in the threads dept so I thought I'd do a little research and come up with the greatest pacers to have raced in Australia in the past forty years - in order
1. Blacks A Fake
2. Our Sir Vancelot
3. Gammalite
4. Village Kid
5. Pure Steel
6. Westburn Grant
7. Preux Chevalier
8. Hondo Grattan
9. Popular Alm 10.Smoken Up ?
11.Koala King
12.Mr Feelgood
13. Shakamaker
The results have been decided on the relevance of the horse's major victories.
Maybe you disagree ?

[aussiebreno]

How Gammalite gets above Poppy is beyond me! They raced at the same time and Poppy is way better.

Mr Feelgood, really? He has won two of the big GC circuit races but so have plenty others. Recent bias there imo.

Otherwise its a futile exercise comparing the greats of different eras. Eg I could have posted where is Christian Cullen or Koala King or Double Identity but its a silly procedure imo.

If you wanted to do the list based on the horses major victories well here is a Grand Circuit list. http://www.harness.org.au/grandcirc/agc_rwonp.htm

[nat]

I agree Aussie it is hard to compare from different era's it's a good list of horses though I have a soft spot for Westburn Grant (Ps. I love them all) was good from the day he started till the day he finished taking on a golden era of horses (Franco Ice another fav and Franco Tiger). A good short doco "The Summer of Frost and Ice" a good watch

[Mighty Atom]

How Gammalite gets above Poppy is beyond me! They raced at the same time and Poppy is way better.

Mr Feelgood, really? He has won two of the big GC circuit races but so have plenty others. Recent bias there imo.

Otherwise its a futile exercise comparing the greats of different eras. Eg I could have posted where is Christian Cullen or Koala King or Double Identity but its a silly procedure imo.

If you wanted to do the list based on the horses major victories well here is a Grand Circuit list. http://www.harness.org.au/grandcirc/agc_rwonp.htm
The list only includes Aust horses. I've looked at your GC list - nothing really there that escaped my attention. Can't entirely go on grand circuit wins otherwise Poppy wouldn't be on the list at all. It's been based on the big three ( Inters, Miracle Mile, Hunter Cup) as well as other majors. Gammalite - 83 & 84 inters, 82 Hunter Cup, 82 Auckland Cup, W.A.Pacing cup, 4 S.A. Pacing Cups, 81 Queensland Champs, 2 Freo Cups, Grand Circuit Champion 82, 83, & 84. Popular Alm - 83 Hunter Cup 83 Miracle Mile, 82 & 83 Winfield Cups, 81 & 82 Kilmore Cups. I think Gammalite wins. I did err on the part of Koala King, he probably should have been placed above Mr Feelgood and Paleface Adios.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msE1zn3iVFE

Now tell me Gammalite is better.

I mentioned CC as you said horses that raced in Australia in your O.P. On top of that now you have mentioned races in NZ being Auckland Cup and an Inter of Gammalites.

[Mighty Atom]

Sorry aussiebreno but one swallow does not make a summer, you forgot to mention Poppy's magnificent third to Rhett's Law in the 1982 Inters - give me a break . It doesn't matter where the Oz horses raced, in fact that only enhances Gammalites CV because he achieved great results in New Zealand and Australia wide whereas Popular Alm best wins were in Vic. I suppose you could debate this till the cows come home but one thing is for sure you would be hard pressed to replace any of the horses I've mentioned with another.

[aussiebreno]

17 meetings between the two and how many did Gammalite win?
Gammalite was a great, great horse and probably does deserves a top five spot (oh I hate comparing different eras) but if I had a dollar for every time somebody said Popular Alm was the best ever I would be sipping wine in the caribean; not on here.

[Mighty Atom]

I think they may have all been Victorians. No, to me a Miracle Mile win or an Inters or Hunter Cup is what really counts. If Smoken Up can win the Inters he would really break into the top 10.

[aussiebreno]

Well in that case Poppy won the Hunter Cup and the Miracle Mile. 2/3. Gammalite won the Hunter Cup and the Inter. 2/3.

Gammalite failed in a Hunter Cup to both Poppy and Koala King. He failed in a Miracle Mile to Poppy. Gammalite beat Poppy in just two races - SA Derby and ID.

Your recent bias is incredible! You want the three most recent Inter winners in your top 15! Short memory!

[Mighty Atom]

No, Gammalite won Two Inters so he's one up on Poppy in the big ones. Two wins do not count as one. No bias there, just cold hard facts.

[Mighty Atom]

This will be my last comment on Gammalite versus Popular Alm. Go back to comment four where I said it is based on the big three pacing events. On that criteria Gammalite wins 3/2, or if you prefer on your quote "If you wanted to do the list based on the horses major victories well here is a Grand Circuit list" end of quote, well I'm afraid Poppy fails miserably on this one - Gammalite 9 - Popular Alm 4. Well aussiebrenno the prosecution rests its case, you've been found guilty.

[aussiebreno]

Lol.
An article on the death of Gammalite calls Poppy the sports greatest ever. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/superracing/mighty-pacer-passes-away/story-e6frfg96-1111112726228

I cant keep arguing when you change your criteria. In your OP you said you based it on big GC wins or words to that effect hence why I bought up the Grand Circuit list. Then in another post you say its not so much about big GC wins anyway...and then in the very same post go on to list the big GC wins. Hard to play tennis when the net keeps moving.

Anyone else want to post who they think is better out of Poppy and Gammalite. Remembering Poppy wasnt just a Miracle Mile winner; but the BEST winner ever according to polls done of the public just six months ago!

[Mighty Atom]

after having listed all of the horses at the start of the thread, my actual favourite is not there (although I do have a soft spot for Pure Steel because of his gut busting runs and never say die attitude ) No,my personal fav is Gundary Flyer. Saw the horse race in Perth. He had the most sublime pacing action I've ever seen it was just like he was floating in mid air - just magic to watch. Getting back to Pure Steel, I still have a cassette recording of the 1980 Hunter Cup with Paleface in front, Pure Steel on his outside and Koala King just coiled up ready to strike behind the both of them I'm not sure of the race caller then but it was the most electrifying call of any race I have ever heard. Still play it occasionally even now.

[Bigtone]

Dictionary description of Champion..........Achieving excellence at a High level over many years. Gammalite is the toughest animal to ever compete on a racetrack in Australia. I remember reading Vin Knight say that he would have swapped all the Wins he had over Gammalite for the two races Gamma beat Poppy in. There was also a lot of stories and rumours coming out of the Knight stable that we will not go into.
I am also showing bias, as I loved Gammalite ever since I saw him win the Edger Tatlow as a two year old that was such a strong and tough win, and fact is that he was able to do that from a two year old, to 8 years old when he retired, and was a Champion every year that he raced. Read the story about when he went to New Zealand and was travelling for 22 hours, arrived at 2.00am on the day of the race, and still won. Came back and won the AG Hunter Cup the week after. Doubt any other animal could do that. Gammalite the Great!!

[Richard prior]

Great horse alright Bigtone, Impossible to compare horses from different era’s, Blacks A Fake best I’ve seen, Gee it would have been a ding dong battle between Gammalite and BAF

[gutwagon]

I think Classic Gary should get a mention just for his contribution to the breeding industry.

[Richard prior]

Totally agree

[Bigtone]

Gamma did all the hard work. Sat three wide, went around them in a Mile race, and it took Poppy the length of the straight to get past Gamma......I always say Gamma because of longevity. Was a Champion from Day one, to Day dot...........

[hugdon]

I like you Tony have picked a horse who demoralised his opposition with his will to win. Imo he broke the heart of two mighty horses in Satinover and Rip van Winkle I reckon the mightiest of the mighty was PURE STEEL

[Richard prior]

Steelo was a mighty horse

[Adaptor]

It's the annual Memorial Race Night at Bendigo on Sunday.

Can you remember their best horses?

Eight races have been sponsored and named by their families to remember the contributions to trotting by:

Merv Dillon: Glengower, Flip A Dollar, Keystone Lucy

Henry McDermott: Gosh, Quambies Pride, Waikare Gold, frosty Vee Bee

Ted Manton: Tramp The Foot, Hamilton Lad, Pretty Boy Mitch

Ken and Daphne Pocock: Fosmar, Game Oro, Royal Gaze

Ron Pocock: Gold Share, Next Bonus, Six O’Clock Rock

Bob Birthisel: Panthers Flight, Stormy Meadow, Roseaday and Stormy Day.

Kevin “Boofa” Innes: Imatoff, Stormy Morn, Lea Sands

Graeme Maher: Track manager at Moonee Valley and HRV’s State Track supervisor
Revolutionized Australasian Trotting Track preparation and equipment
Little Brown Jug (Delaware USA) honouree