muscles yankee

[buster]

2 best trotters in the southern hemisphere...no surprises there

[nat]

The best stallion in the world you get what you pay for

[triplev123]

An absolutely OUTSTANDING sire. You hit the nail squarely upon the head there Nat. With him you get what you pay for. I can't wait to see what his son, Muscle Hill, does at stud. I believe that he will be even better again.

[eliteblood]

Are they the result of frozen semen ?
A leading NSW trainer told me a couple of years ago that he would never buy another yearling that was the result of frozen semen because it didn't work.

[buster]

yes frozen semen


THEY said the same thing about embryo transfer...and then came along sushi sushi

[nat]

When you buy a ticket on the Muscles Yankee train you buy first class look how many sevice's down under and what he has produced, Triplev123 you can't wait for Muscle Hill for me I can't wait for Skyvalley even Alderbaron Yankee and then when he is retired Down Under Muscles

[mango]

Hi Eliteblood

I think there's nothing wrong with frozen semen and take a look at Bettor's progeny as anything over 4yrs of age was by frozen and they have done a great job.

[triplev123]

Love You is making an incredible impact in NZ via frozen semen. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Flashing Red]

Are they the result of frozen semen ?
A leading NSW trainer told me a couple of years ago that he would never buy another yearling that was the result of frozen semen because it didn't work.

I would prefer fresh/chilled over frozen any day of the week.

In saying that, the breeding industry is improving in leaps and bounds, especially in the semen department. They seem to be getting better results now than 10 or so years ago, so my opinion on the whole topic is changing.

Further, when pioneering embryo transfer, they were using a lot of old mares and the results weren't very good. Once, however, they began using younger (and sometimes unraced) mares, the resulting offspring seemed to improve.

I don't think one could ever fully substitute live cover or chilled semen, but I think that gap's closing...

[triplev123]

Frozen semen doesn't bother me one bit. Embryo Transfer certainly did and for quite some time too, though not so much anymore. I think that you're getting really close to hitting the nail on the head there Flashing. Early on in the piece I don't believe anywhere near enough credence was given to selecting the right recipient mare. IMO it's not only their size but their temperament & their age that come into play big-time. Above all else, I'd be very interested in the size of foals a potential recipoent mare leaves. Some big mares leave moderately sized foals, some smaller mares will leave big foals & so on. If for some reason we had to carry out an ET I'd seriously consider going as far as supplying our own recipient mare, one that we knew all about beforehand.

[mango]

Hi Flashing Red

It's an interesting topic frozen semen, some people do prefer fresh/chilled but another thing to look at is most stallions are frozen down when they are starting out so there semen should be of good quality so i can't see the difference. People see a sire not performing by frozen semen but little do they know his live foals to winners, Bettor's Delight would be a good example of this and how well his frozen semen foals have performed they are 4yr old and older and they have done a great job. There's a lot more work in serving a mare frozen and more cost involved so thats the main turn off.

[buster]

there is no way that age of the mare, freezing semen or using ET will change the chromosomes present in the resulting foal...

its all just people looking for excuses of why horses aren't stars without blaming their own mangement

there is more chance of a horses ability being ruined by a trainer or breaker imo...i

[Flashing Red]

I have spoken to some of the best breeders (of classic, Derby and Grand Circuit winners) in Australia who will disagree with you, but me personally I do not know enough or have had enough experience with frozen semen or ET to comment. I do believe that technology has come ahead in leaps and bounds so the results of these alternative methods, when people first formed their opinions all those years ago, are more likely inaccurate today. I will say however that the older a mare gets, the more likely her better offspring are behind her. That is what I have had experience with and you would be silly to think the age of a mare doesn't play a part, for example, in a purchaser's decision whether to buy a certain yearling in a sale. The same goes for stallions. For years the southern hemisphere got America's rejects - stallions that were great stallions in their day but once they started to wind down, they ended up here. I stand by my comments that more favourable results are achieved with ET by using a younger surrogate mare - this is the common belief in America after trial and error in a breeding industry a hell of a lot bigger than ours. It has nothing to do with (mis)management, or looking for an excuse.

[buster]

what year it is that mares become old?

[Flashing Red]

i bet you didnt find 1 vet or anyone with a tertiary level background in genetics or science that told you that... it was even the reverse myth in the fisheries where they believed older mothers produced higher quality offspring (and this has been extensively studied)

You lost the bet, 2 were vets (one from Canada, one from America, but heck, does that not count because they are not from Australia?) but sadly none were geneticists. I do not believe what scientists say as the gospel. Science cannot explain why massive doses of Vitamin C, colloidal silver, hydrogen peroxide and plain balanced diet cured Flashing Red's joint infection when the Ballarat Vet Clinic and all their tests and drugs over several months could not. I could go on.


ps- the sushi sushi gang are not disappointed with their ET foal out of an old mare
That's just one example but its good to hear regardless as next season we will be using ET, albeit with a young, large and unraced mare that is also an excellent mother.

What I can't understand is that you come across that anyone that believes contrary to yourself on this topic must be stupid. Like it's so obvious that you are right. Its not about being right, its about differing opinions. If it really was that dried, done and dusted there would never be any discussion on this topic as it would be accepted. The fact that there are still qualms about frozen semen, embryo transfer etc shows that this topic is still not settled, which may also mean that you (and me) may not be right. ;) Like I have said, I really don't have enough personal experience to comment on frozen semen or ET but was rather providing what many people still believe to be a genuine other side of the coin. My lack of experience in this field means my opinions are shaped by those around me, who I would be happy to achieve 1/4 of what they have in many cases!! :)

I don't know, many people formed their opinions years ago on frozen semen and ET when it were in their infancy and you can't tell me with better technology and techniques of today that it would not produce better, if not more consistent, results. People's problems are they are stuck in the past and don't want to move forward. However lets move forward when there is compelling evidence to do so.

I would never normally endorse ET however there has been some compelling evidence for its cause. There is also beginning to be compelling evidence for the use of frozen semen, one example as previously mentioned is Bettor's Delight. When push comes to shove, people want to breed the best horse they can, I really think that is all it boils down to.

[Flashing Red]

what year it is that mares become old?

Common consensus (if people believe in age being a factor) is that at 20 a mare's best producing days are behind her, perhaps a little earlier for stallions. I enjoy reading sometimes in the trot guide, in the breeding section, the foal number certain stakes horses are, etc. There have been some crackers (maybe Monkey King but I stand to be corrected?) that were "older mum" foals. To counteract this argument many people say that a mare is sent to the better stallions in her first few years, if she does not make it then, she will go to stallions of lesser quality etc which can also explain why. If it was my own mare I would not worry about it, but if I were buying one in the sales (when I finish my degree! lol!!) and I was torn between 2 - one was out of a 12yo mare and one out of a 25yo mare, I think that would play some part in the decision making process (and I don't think I'm alone, rightly or wrongly!) :)

[Flashing Red]

Do you know what I am very interested to see Buster? How Somebeachsomewhere's Southern Hemisphere (frozen) crop perform compared to his North American (chilled) crop. He had an outstanding book of mares here as I am sure he would have no doubt got in North America too. It would be interesting if one crop does a better job overall than the other or the results are pretty similar, whether he is a success or failure. :)

[buster]

if it wasn't for the advances that frozen semen and ET brought to australia we'd all be paying 4 dollars a litre for milk and god knows how much for a feed lot steak

what i just can't grasp about his whole ET/frozen semen/old mares thing is that people are saying that an animals genotype is being effected by its mothers phenotype

[buster]

Do you know what I am very interested to see Buster? How Somebeachsomewhere's Southern Hemisphere (frozen) crop perform compared to his North American (chilled) crop. He had an outstanding book of mares here as I am sure he would have no doubt got in North America too. It would be interesting if one crop does a better job overall than the other or the results are pretty similar, whether he is a success or failure. :)

i wouldnt be surprised if he did better out here, those direct scooter line horses have revolutionized the breed (in nz - aussie)..or maybe that line has done all its rapid growth

[eliteblood]

There is also beginning to be compelling evidence for the use of frozen semen, one example as previously mentioned is Bettor's Delight. When push comes to shove, people want to breed the best horse they can, I really think that is all it boils down to.


How about this for some more compelling evidence - Somethingaboutmaori, A Touch of Flair, Let Me Thru, I Can Doosit, Skyvalley, Zesta, Down Under Muscles, Kyvalley Road, Lord of the Gym, Miami H

[eliteblood]

Early on in the piece I don't believe anywhere near enough credence was given to selecting the right recipient mare. IMO it's not only their size but their temperament & their age that come into play big-time. Above all else, I'd be very interested in the size of foals a potential recipoent mare leaves. Some big mares leave moderately sized foals, some smaller mares will leave big foals & so on. If for some reason we had to carry out an ET I'd seriously consider going as far as supplying our own recipient mare, one that we knew all about beforehand.

Angus McKinnon, Australia's most acknowledged authority on the subject of equine reproduction, once told me not to get hung up about the size of the surrogate. Research had shown that, while there is a relationship between the size of the surrogate mare and the size of the foal at birth, genetics takes over and the foal will eventually grow to the size that is determined by its genes. That is, there is no advantage in using a 16.2 hands surrogate over one that is 15 hands.
Triplev, you could consider supplying your own recipient mare but that would add another complication into the procedure. When performing an ET it is necessary to transfer the embryo into a surrogate that is at a similar stage of her breeding cycle as the donor mare. The veterinary practices that regularly perform ET's have a paddock full of surrogates that they are scanning all the time and they will pick one that is very closely aligned in her breeding cycle. Although drugs can assist in the timing of when a mare comes into season and ovulates they are not clockwork and trying to align the cycle of one donor mare with one recipient would jeopardize the success rate of the procedure and possibly add to the cost.

[Flashing Red]

Angus McKinnon, Australia's most acknowledged authority on the subject of equine reproduction, once told me not to get hung up about the size of the surrogate. Research had shown that, while there is a relationship between the size of the surrogate mare and the size of the foal at birth, genetics takes over and the foal will eventually grow to the size that is determined by its genes. That is, there is no advantage in using a 16.2 hands surrogate over one that is 15 hands.
Triplev, you could consider supplying your own recipient mare but that would add another complication into the procedure. When performing an ET it is necessary to transfer the embryo into a surrogate that is at a similar stage of her breeding cycle as the donor mare. The veterinary practices that regularly perform ET's have a paddock full of surrogates that they are scanning all the time and they will pick one that is very closely aligned in her breeding cycle. Although drugs can assist in the timing of when a mare comes into season and ovulates they are not clockwork and trying to align the cycle of one donor mare with one recipient would jeopardize the success rate of the procedure and possibly add to the cost.

That's good to know, thanks for that :)

[buster]

An absolutely OUTSTANDING sire. You hit the nail squarely upon the head there Nat. With him you get what you pay for. I can't wait to see what his son, Muscle Hill, does at stud. I believe that he will be even better again.

triple v must be the one that bought sky rocket from tremon studs dispersal then?

[triplev123]

????????? Sorry Buster. That ripped past me and slapped into the Keeper's gloves.

[mango]

Hi Buster

Was Skye Rocket served by Muscle Hill, she has a Muscle Mass colt at foot.

[buster]

yeah sorry had the 2 confused, was a muscle massive colt at foot

[nat]

Hey Buster
Your right on the button with the Dairy,Cattle,Sheep and Goat breeding side no one say's anything bad about ET and frozen semen all's good not an issue it's big big big business and they are more astute about breeding than most would think. Muscle Yankee slaps all the theory's in the face with his southern hemispheres progeny.

[triplev123]

Muscle Hill is the one you want now. If you think his old man is Gold, wait until you see what MH does.

[Flashing Red]

I was in America when Muscle Hill won the Hambo... I hobbled my whole team that day and was so buggered, I didn't go to the Big M (only 50 mins away) but had a sleep! (What a sook!). Really sorry that I didn't go!! But I did get to see Well Said in the flesh - what a little bulldog! :)