STALLION'S 10/11 season n.z

[mango]

The following are the number of mare's served in n.z only.

Bettor's Delight 327
Changeover 225
Elsu 142
Gotta Go Cullect 126
Christian Cullen 125
Art Major 115
Mach 3 111
American Ideal 103
Stonebridge Regal 100
Badlands Hanover 95
Mc Ardle 88
Live or Die 81
Washington VC 74
Santanna Blue Chip 73
Art Official 66
Jereme's Jet 65
Falcon Seelster 60
Gotta Go Cullen 58
Real Desire 52
Courage 47
Grin 49
Lis Mara 46
Shadow Play 34

These are some of the stallions that stood or had semen transported to N.Z in the 10/11 season.

[buster]

how on earth did elsu get so many

[mango]

Hi Buster

Not sure, i was at Alabar on saturday looking at him and i couldn't believe how big/thick set he is. They said he is doing a good job over there but he really needs a standout soon.

[eliteblood]

There would be some stallion owners very disappointed with those numbers

[mango]

Besides Changeover i'd say Nevele R would be one of those disappointed.

[nat]

I'm happy for Changeover I like him a little bit of everything in a racehorse deserves a chance

327 thats killing the pig for Bettor's Delight, anything below Badlands Hanover would be a disapointment for owners except for Falcon Seelster & Gotta Go Cullen. If they dropped CC fee to $10,000 they would double his book and make more money

[mango]

Hi Nat

Your on the mark there with C-C and the same could be said for Mach 3 but what i've been told there in the same boat when it come's to semen (average).

[triplev123]

G'day Nat,
These days CC's fertility wouldn't allow him to double that book...no matter what price he was offered at. In addition, & just as it is for every stallion, serving the mares is one thing, getting them in foal is another.
The one that spins my head on that list is Stonebridge Regal.
I thought the Kiwis did their homework? The horse didn't win so much as a single Stakes Race in his entire career.

[mango]

Hi Triple

Yeah i was a bit suprised with Stonebridge Regal so i went back and had a look how he went in Australia and in 09/10 he served 165 with 107 live foals and on top of the 100 he served in New Zealand he also served 109 in Aus this year.

[triplev123]

Fair dinkum. It's a funny old world.

[mango]

Hey Triple

Looking at the list Stonebridge Regal would be the only son of Artsplace standing in New Zealand, imagine if Sportswriter had of been standing over there or had semen available what numbers he might of got.

[aussiebreno]

Probably a naive question and something there is a logical answer to; cant be arsed finding it out myself but from memory Gotta Go Cullen did a bit more than Gotta Go Cullect on the race track (this is where I could be wrong as well) so how come Cullect has served a truckload more mares?

[buster]

cullen stands for 4k
cullect stands for 2.5k

cullect was only lightly raced but was beaten by stunin cullen as a 2 yr old

cullen raced through until grand circuit level, but he was outstanding young horse, regularly beating fergiemack and changeover (and is closely related to stunin cullen and il vilcolo i think)

[aussiebreno]

cullen stands for 4k
cullect stands for 2.5k

cullect was only lightly raced but was beaten by stunin cullen as a 2 yr old

cullen raced through until grand circuit level, but he was outstanding young horse, regularly beating fergiemack and changeover (and is closely related to stunin cullen and il vilcolo i think)

cheers buster.

[triplev123]

Can't say I've ever laid eyes on either of them. Which is considered to be the better type of the two?

[mightymo]

i cant believe Shadow Play only got half the mares that Art Official and Santanna Blue Chip got....

[mango]

Hi Triple

Was at Alabar New Zealand saturday and i seen Gotta Go Cullect he's not overly big and plain looking but in saying that i've seen half a dozen of his foals out here and there nice leggy type's. As for Gotta Go Cullen i havn't seen him for a couple of years but when i last seen him he was of good size nice length so on type i would pick him.

[mango]

Hi Mightymo

It will be a different story when they release how many mare's were served in Aus i'd near think that Shadow Play would of served more than both Art Official and Santanna Blue Chip.
i cant believe Shadow Play only got half the mares that Art Official and Santanna Blue Chip got....

[nat]

Hi Aussie

Buster point out a couple of things
Gotta Go Cullen 1:58.3
Gotta Go Cullen 1:57 & his dam Elect To Live (one of his best points) and marketed well by Alabar

[Don Corleone]

Hey Triple

Looking at the list Stonebridge Regal would be the only son of Artsplace standing in New Zealand, imagine if Sportswriter had of been standing over there or had semen available what numbers he might of got.

I agree Mango. Also I know of 4 mares who got 'free' service to Stonebridge Regal, so maybe there were a few more.

[buster]

Hi Aussie

Buster point out a couple of things
Gotta Go Cullen 1:58.3
Gotta Go Cullen 1:57 & his dam Elect To Live (one of his best points) and marketed well by Alabar

its simply a case of prices for me, gotta go cullen is just as well bred and was better performed as a race horse

[mango]

Hi Buster

Going through both families i'd say Gotta Go Cullen is better bred and done it on the race track, there's know saying how good Gotta Go Cullect could of been as he was lightly raced and then you look at his full sister who looked like being a world beater but didn't go on with it.

[nat]

Definitely the price Buster $5000 for Gotta Go Cullen or $6000 American Ideal / Art Official (his dam sire possibly make it harder in NZ for him) makes it hard.

[mango]

Some of the stallions service records for mare's served in Aus for the 10/11 season that i could find.
Grinfromeartoear 271
Sportswriter 221
Four Starzzz Shark 176
Art Major 174
Modern Art 154
Shadow Play 140
Dawn ofa New Day 135
Live or Die 134
Julius Caeser 126
Village Jasper 121
Stonebridge Regal 109
Jereme's Jet 104
Armbro Operative 94
Artistic Fella 78
Gotta Go Cullect 75
Tell All 71
Life Sign 69
Village Jolt 65
Real Desire 64
Badlands Hanover 55
Lis Mara 53
Changeover 37
McArdle 29
Falcon Seelster 28

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

221 for Sportswriter and 176 for Four Starzzz Shark is on the money. In fact most of those make sense to me in one way or another excepting that I hand on heart cannot fathom the numbers posted by Julius Caesar (126) & Stonebridge Regal (109).
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/SiZzHBBPebI/AAAAAAAANnk/6nw7RC4LvD8/s320/Brain+Overload.jpg
Anyone that's looking at either of them in preference to a horse like Artistic Fella (78) needs to get a CT Scan and book themselves in to see a Neurosurgeon

[mango]

What i can gather is both horses you have spoken about are managed by the same interest and deals were offered to get bookings up. I think Don from n.z even mentioned some free service fee's to Stonebridge regal were given away.

[Flashing Red]

Can someone tell me how many Flashing Red ended up with? I know he was down on numbers from last season, but just would like to know what he ended up with. :) He's probably not going to be the next Art Major Bettor's Delight but I am very happy with a yearling we have by him, her heart rate is 30 points lower, per minute, than the normal yearling averages. Fingers crossed that this is a good sign and that she has his heart! She is his spitting image, she was a poddy foal and I just love her to bits!

[mango]

Hi Flashing Red

In the season just passed he served 49 mare's in n.z and not sure if and how many in Aus.

[buster]

Isn't a heart rate that low in a non trained athlete dangerous?

[Flashing Red]

Isn't a heart rate that low in a non trained athlete dangerous?

I've never heard that, the heart rate itself is not low (still higher than a fit racing horse), just lower than what many yearlings normally are :) She's also very clean winded, may have something else to do with it! :)

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red

In the season just passed he served 49 mare's in n.z and not sure if and how many in Aus.

Thanks :)

[aussiebreno]

In humans at least untrained people with slow/low heart rates = bad. They call it bradycardia and you will have lessened blood supply and actually find it harder to exercise.

[Flashing Red]

In humans at least untrained people with slow/low heart rates = bad. They call it bradycardia and you will have lessened blood supply and actually find it harder to exercise.
Never heard of that, thanks and I'll keep it in mind! I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the filly... I know a lot of trainers take heart rates as some sort of early guide to ability. She doesn't find it hard to exercise at all, she's a little firecracker!!

[Love Of Courage]

Courage Under Fire,

This little champ reportedly had a very low resting heart rate. They compared him to the New Zealnd middle distance runner John Walker. I guess if the heart is powerful in circulating the blood that it would not to beat as often ?

[buster]

yes thats the idea LOC, but the idea is it can be low for reasons other than having a strong heart or being fit...

[mango]

Some of the stallions service records for mare's served in Aus for the 10/11 season that i could find.
Grinfromeartoear 271
Sportswriter 221
Four Starzzz Shark 176
Art Major 174
Modern Art 154
Shadow Play 140
Dawn ofa New Day 135
Live or Die 134
Julius Caeser 126
Village Jasper 121
Stonebridge Regal 109
Jereme's Jet 104
Armbro Operative 94
Artistic Fella 78
Gotta Go Cullect 75
Tell All 71
Life Sign 69
Village Jolt 65
Real Desire 64
Badlands Hanover 55
Lis Mara 53
Changeover 37
McArdle 29
Falcon Seelster 28

Just found some more service results for some of the stallion's that were missing from the list.

[buster]

surprised grin served so many, obviously shows what an advantage affordable service fees are

[mango]

Hi Buster

Alabar own him which would allow them to deal a bit more compared to say Art Major who you can only get 10% off and in Art Major's defence Alabar stated before the start of the breeding season that he would only be serving 150 plus returns.

[nat]

I dont know what to think of the numbers Mango in some way at the top you expect those numbers but when you get just past halfway down I dont know if these are poor numbers or have they done well with poor prices, maketing or timming with the glutten of very good stallions at good prices on the market.

[mango]

Hi Nat

It will be interesting to see how many mare's were served compared to the last say 10 yrs this could be why the stallions half way down the list have missed out on the extra numbers. They tell me breeding was down but to what extent i'm not sure and n.z was at it's lowest in 10 yrs they were averaging 4200 a year over 10 yrs and this year they served 3500 mare's.

[mightymo]

Just found some more service results for some of the stallion's that were missing from the list.

the one that surprises me the most from those numbers is Modern Art. Also, im sure Real Desire would get more now based on his 2yos to date

[mango]

Hi Mightymo

I think people were just playing it safe by not going to Real Desire due to that he's by Life Sign. Life Sign's have been under achiever's to say the very least and i own one. And you are correct in saying Real Desire would get more based on his progeny's efforts on the track they seem to be going real good. Yes Modern Art surprised me as well from a seller's point of view they just don't sell good enough.

[triplev123]

G'day fellas,

IMO Modern Art is the go-to if you are breeding to race them yourself & especially so if you are trying to get a to that point unsuccessful mare on the board.
He doesn't seem to need a specific bloodline to produce his winners & they also tend to get going early & realtively easily so a lot of Trainers of very widely varying ability will get them to the races.
He also has a happy knack of correcting front end conformation/gait issues in a mare's foals, something which is kind of tied in with the aforementioned.
Often you'll find one of his 2yo starters is the 1st starter the mare has ever produced or if not then then quite often they're her first 2yo starter ever...or interestingly a Trainer's 1st 2yo starter/winner.

As such I think that the 154 (?)...was recorded almost entirely by the breed to race breeders. I say this with some conviction because quite clearly they do not sell well. Rightly or wrongly this time around 24 Modern Art Yearlings sold fr an average of just $10,000 & his highest seller this season was a $20,000 colt from Headline Franco that Joe Cordina purchased here in Sydney. Nationally, the next sellers were 17k, 16k, 15k x 2, 14k, 12k, 11k, 10k, 9k & so on down the line. Commercial Breeders would starve to death with those numbers.

Real Desire is interesting. I can't say I'm a fan of the horse though to his credit his Oz bred 2yos have done exactly what they did in Kentucky by way of them getting up and rolling relatively early.
It's well worth noting however that they're going no better than Modern Art's initial crop did...and in fact there's a fair case to be made that they're not going anywhere near as good...and look where Modern Art finds himself now. You can keep ol' Real Desire, not for mine matey. :(

My money's long been on Four Starzzz Shark. He has had both the quality of mares and the numbers to get every chance. His 1st Oz bred commercial crop will make their debut in earnest in January/Feb of 2012 & beyond and I'll be stunned if they do not make a big impact here.

[mango]

I agree Modern Art's average ($10,000) at the sale's was good but i was talking about breeding to him now and selling in 2yrs time i doubt the average will be near that. Thats my opinion and i'll stick with that.

I don't know enough about Real Desire's progeny racing but i thought people might of stayed away due to him been by Life Sign and that has been mentioned to me a few time's. So far there going good out here and he had a 1st and 2nd at Cambridge tonight.

Four Starzzz Shark should make it as a stallion he was a great racehorse and has done a tremendous job in the states to date with smaller books than some of the fancied one's. He has served 3 good books out here so that will help and as Triple has said he has served some quality mare's as well.

[mightymo]

i couldnt go to Modern Art. He really has been a very big disappointment for mine. He sires horses that get up and go as early 2yos , but never seem to get any better...

I havent bred to real Desire either this year, but Im surprised by how many 2yo and good ones that he is getting. actually had 2 fillies quinella tonight at Cambridge

[buster]

wouldnt touch a MA

[aussiebreno]

i couldnt go to Modern Art. He really has been a very big disappointment for mine. He sires horses that get up and go as early 2yos , but never seem to get any better...

I havent bred to real Desire either this year, but Im surprised by how many 2yo and good ones that he is getting. actually had 2 fillies quinella tonight at Cambridge

Interesting what you say about Modern Art.

I have also heard a few opinions that Real Desires are 2yos; although thats really unproven at this stage and just trainers thoughts.

[aussiebreno]

wouldnt touch a MA

He isnt that bad

[triplev123]

[QUOTE=mango;5452]I agree Modern Art's average ($10,000) at the sale's was good but i was talking about breeding to him now and selling in 2yrs time i doubt the average will be near that. Thats my opinion and i'll stick with that.]

That's the point I made Mango. $10,000 is already pretty bad and it will not improve. The breed to race crew have him all to themselves.

[mango]

Hi Triple

Thats the point i was trying to make as to Modern Art, breed to race and not to sell i should of explained myself better.

[mango]

He isnt that bad

Hi Aussiebreno

He has had some nice horses but with the good size books he has had my opinion is that he probably should of had more.

[triplev123]

Indeed. He has had plenty of winners but he really should have had quite a few more genuinely top-end performers.

[triplev123]

Hi Triple

Thats the point i was trying to make as to Modern Art, breed to race and not to sell i should of explained myself better.

Don't worry. You've probably caught some sort of virus from Buster...one that makes you beat around the bush. He is forever infected thus. :p

[Shannon]

Some of the stallions service records for mare's served in Aus for the 10/11 season that i could find.
Grinfromeartoear 271
Sportswriter 221
Four Starzzz Shark 176
Art Major 174
Modern Art 154
Shadow Play 140
Dawn ofa New Day 135
Live or Die 134
Julius Caeser 126
Village Jasper 121
Stonebridge Regal 109
Jereme's Jet 104
Armbro Operative 94
Artistic Fella 78
Gotta Go Cullect 75
Tell All 71
Life Sign 69
Village Jolt 65
Real Desire 64
Badlands Hanover 55
Lis Mara 53
Changeover 37
McArdle 29
Falcon Seelster 28

Any word on how the stallion station sire's went like mach 3 and major in art

[mango]

Hi Shannon

Only got N.Z results on them, Australia's results for them aren't confirmed as yet. Mach 3 111 and Major in Art 13 in N.Z as soon as i can find out there results for Australia i'll post them.

[mango]

Some of the stallions service records for mare's served in Aus for the 10/11 season that i could find.
Grinfromeartoear 271
Sportswriter 221
Four Starzzz Shark 176
Art Major 174
Modern Art 154
Shadow Play 140
Dawn ofa New Day 135
Live or Die 134
Julius Caeser 126
Village Jasper 121
Stonebridge Regal 109
Jereme's Jet 104
Armbro Operative 94
Artistic Fella 78
Gotta Go Cullect 75
Tell All 71
Life Sign 69
Village Jolt 65
Real Desire 64
Badlands Hanover 55
Lis Mara 53
Changeover 37
McArdle 29
Falcon Seelster 28

Courage Under Fire 162
Major In Art 152
Mister Big 70
Santanna Blue Chip 59
Mach 3 49
Art Official 17

[nat]

17 for Art official seems a bit said would have been DA MAN in the US if it wasn't for the freak SBSW, cannot fathom those numbers I rate him is it the Falcon Seelster in him?

[mango]

Hi Nat

I can't see there being a problem with having Falcon Seelster in him if anything i think it's a good thing. Falcon has done a great job out here and his mare's are breeding on. I think it may of been his price but thats only speculating and the same could be said for Mister Big and yes he was a great racehorse but you can get his father Grin cheaper and who is a proven sire.

[triplev123]

17 for Art official seems a bit said would have been DA MAN in the US if it wasn't for the freak SBSW, cannot fathom those numbers I rate him is it the Falcon Seelster in him?

Very ordinary type Nat, at least to my eye anyway.
For mine, watching him pacing along with SBSW was like watching a Ford Taurus pull in alongside a Lamborghini Gallardo.

[Greg Hando]

He seems to be a bit of a 1 off until you get to the third dam IMO maybe some people look at it that way instead of just seeing the good racehorse side of the horse

[John Curtin]

Very ordinary type Nat, at least to my eye anyway.
For mine, watching him pacing along with SBSW was like watching a Ford Taurus pull in alongside a Lamborghini Gallardo.

It is quite awhile since I had time to post a comment here but after I recieved a call about this one from breeder in Australia that bred to the horse I just had to make time to answer this one. I had to make time.

Triplev123 whoever you are you certainly has never looked at Art Official because he is a stunner and a splitting image of his sire Art Major. Ordinary type says triplev123 you just have to be joking. As for his racing well if anybody saw Art Official beating Somebeachsomewhere in the Meadowlands Pace in a world record 1:47 then I would like to own a lot more of those "Ford Tauras".

The fact of the matter is that the Stallion Station did no advertising this past year and are out of business this year. They bred 1800 mares two years ago and just on a thousand this year.
The srevice fee for Art Official was too much for a start and like a lot of stallions was way over priced. This is something that will be corrected by all studs this coming year I believe or they will suffer.

Most breeders did not even know the horse stood for the season anywhere let alone that he stood in New Zealand. I am amazed he got as many mares as he did.

As for his racing it was world class against the best. After beating Somebeachsomewhere in the Pace the two horses never met again!!!! Art Official went on to go 1:47.4 as a four year old against the very best.

And just remember if you did not know he broke the world record at the time on a half mile track at Freehold 1:50.4 in the cane pace. At the Jug he probably should not have started as he got hurt and did not go as well as he was sore but nevertheless he still won a heat and ran third in the final.

Here are the videos of this so call "Ford Taurus" winning. There is not much better that you can breed to than Art Official. He is as good as they get.

ART OFFICIAL 1:47 2008 MEADOWLANDS PACE $1,100,000 World Record


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJvtDaLZ8FQ

2008 Cane Pace


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00RGM0rDY5E

[triplev123]

JC, if you're saying that with a straight face then you need to get yourself along to OPSM for I fear that you may be suffering from Macular Degeneration or otherwise, Glaucoma.
I have got an Optometrist mate who works at their Castle Hill store and can get you in any time you like. Please consider it in any case. Eyesight is a very precious thing and we need to take care of it.

[triplev123]

http://www.stallionstation.com.au/uploads/images/stallions/art-official-small.jpg
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/files/Somebeachsomewhere-Red-Mile.jpg

[triplev123]

By the way, here's a picture of Art Major.
http://oddsonracing.com/img/ArtMajor_WEB.jpg
http://www.stallionstation.com.au/uploads/images/stallions/art-official-small.jpg
Spitting image is he?

[mango]

Hi John

To be honest with you i thought he stood in Australia and that's why i put him in the Aus section. Looking at Art Major i reckon For A Reason looks alot like him. Do you have a pic of Art Official now that he has let down. And i'd have to agree with Triple SBSW looks a way better type strong all the way through.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

If it comes down to a head to head beauty contest for sons of Art Major, IMO by far & away the best looking son of Art Major currently at stud is Santanna Blue Chip and there is a fair case to be argued that he is also the best gaited one, making him a rather nice combination.

http://www.alabar.com.au/Portals/0/LiveContent/585/Images/Santanna%20Blue%20Chip%20(race).jpg

[triplev123]

A lot of people get hung up on the shape of their heads...but heads aren't everything.
http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/4466.jpg

It hasn't stopped Hayes. ;)

[Greg Hando]

Triple v i take it you have seen Art Official in the flesh i don't think you can judge a horse on look's from a race photo and the race photo's or videos don't do any horses much favour it would be interesting to see a photo of the horses when they are let down to see what they ended up like

[mango]

A lot of people get hung up on the shape of their heads...but heads aren't everything.
http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/4466.jpg

It hasn't stopped Hayes. ;)

Is it true the camera adds on 20 pounds.

[triplev123]

Geeze I hope not.


I'm 3 wide and charging at the Michelin Man as it is. :cool:

[nat]

Hi Mango

The Seelster comment was to the fact of abundance of Seelster mare down under, no one will care what the stallion looks like as long as his progeny can run and you would think Art Official's record would speak for its self

[mango]

Hi Nat

You are right there are a lot of Falcon mare's around but there are heaps of others that would suit him i'm sure. As for looks you are correct it shouldn't matter as long as his progeny can run but i think i'm also right in saying SBSW looks a stronger type and yes there is a big price difference. I would like to see a pic of Art Official now that he has let down just to see how he filled out. I think JC hit the nail on the head (over priced) and to make a stallion you need the numbers on the ground, with only serving 66 in n.z and 17 in Aus that won't help him. It will also be interesting to see where all these stallions from the stallion station end up.

[mango]

Geeze I hope not.


I'm 3 wide and charging at the Michelin Man as it is. :cool:

Hey Triple

Use your side step from back in the day and stay away from them camera's if that's the case.

[nat]

Good morning Mango

SBSW hands down has that CC look and style about him, but if looks were the measure Shadow Play would have bred 500 mares this season, cannot remember off the top of me head but Art Official was around the $6-7,000 where he should have been around the $4,000. It will be interesting where the Stallion Station horse's will end up especially CUF.

[mango]

Hi Nat

Yes it will be interesting where CUF ends up and then there's Mach 3, Mister Big, Major In Art and a heap of others. There's a rumour doing the rounds that Alabar want Mach 3 and CUF but how much truth to that is anyone's guess. Yes Shadow Play has the looks, an American trainer who was out here not so long ago told a mate of mine to stay away from the Panderosa line don't know what thats about as i wasn't privy to the conversation.

[nat]

In some ways we cannot take into account what happens in the US with what cross go's with what as it seems to be thrown out the window when these stallions start crossing with our bloodlines look at ITP, Fake Left, Armbro Op., Safely Kept couldn't get a gig in the US and he revolutionized our breed the only Big time stallion that has delivered is Art Major

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

That's fair comment but I think it's worth noting that Shadow Play has one absolutely vital attribute that very few if any of the other sons of The Panderosa have displayed and that very few people, if any, have acknowledged thus far...and that is point to point high speed.
P-Forty Seven certainly didn't have it & neither did Metropolitan nor Town Champion and in general I think the stock of The Panderosa have been grinders more than speed horses so that that has quite rightly counted against him in the US.
For mine, Shadow Play is atypical of his sire's offspring. He is more like those of his late grandsire, Western Hanover. Of course, it's possible that Shadow Play could come out and sire more to the grinders end of the spectrum, like his dad did...but I very much doubt it.
This is the point where JC chimes in and extolls the virtues of Eric & Seldon's Shockwave & Aranesp Emporium graduate, Town Champion. Cue JC and....go! :p

[mango]

Hey Triple

That comment i wrote wasn't mine as i don't mind the horse i was just passing on what i had heard from a mate and wasn't privy to the original conversation. He might turn out to be a champion which only time will tell.

Hi Nat

Id agree with you there as i'm a huge ITP fan, with my comments i wasn't saying what Shadow Play goes with all i was told was to steer clear of The Panderosa line and as i said i don't know why. Maybe Triple explained why they might look at The Panderosa and his progeny that way cause they are grinders.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

Yeh, I understand that. I've heard some pretty crazy things over the years and that is not the worst let me assure you. Years ago, after a NSW Breeders Committee Meeting I stood in the Bankstown Sports Club Bar one night as, before the horse's 1st crop had even been foaled, a very well known NSW Breeder urged me to put all the mares that I could get my hands on...to Stoneridge Scooter...GOD FORBID! I periodically remind him of it to this day but now, with tongue firmly in his cheek, he denies that he said it.
I just think the steer clear of the whole sireline completely thing is more than just a bit of a sweeping comment by whoever made it originally, that's all. It doesn't take into account repeated historical and more recent breed examples to the contrary.
Here in Oz especially there has always been a little too much getting hung up on the sires of new sires rather than really looking at the individuals in question, something I've never really understood.
I was never an In The Pocket fan... but Christian Cullen, he was something else entirely.
In much the same vein, IMO Shadow Play's nothing at all like the rest of The Panderosas, Somebeachsomewhere's nothing like the rest of the Mach Threes, Artistic Fella's nothing like the rest of the Pacific Fellas...and yet you'll hear some people pot each of them based solely on their sire?????? I just don't understand.
As great looking individuals coupled with their respective deeds on the racetrack...it really wouldn't matter a zac to me if they didn't have a sire or a dam.
The same line of thinking extends to new & existing sires that happen to have somewhat offbeat or lesser known horses as their dam sires.
The bloodlines of so many of the best sires in the breed debunks that theory also with the likes of Overtrick, Nihilator, Armbro Emerson, Blaze Pick, Striking Image, Dancer Hanover, Shadow Wave, Adioo Guy, Duane Hanover, Towner's Big Guy etc. all making guest appearances as the damsires of some of the greatest sires to ever jump a mare.
Also, many of the newest sires available to us today are so by way of a relatively weak link in their not too distant past. Silent Majority (down to Sportswriter), Oil Burner (down to Rock N Roll Heaven) & Direct Scooter (down to Somebeachsomewhere)... for example.
Here ends today's Sermon. :rolleyes:

[Love Of Courage]

Rock N Roll Hanover

I cant say I have heard anymore regarding him coming to Australia in the flesh and his service fee. Any update /

[mango]

Hi Love of Courage

As of last week there still had not been pen to paper for the deal, so i was told by a gentleman who was speaken to some Americans about other stallions. But i like you have my fingers crossed that he comes out and i hope Mightymo is on the mark with his service fee $12.5k and no more.

[triplev123]

I'm hoping Shark Gesture comes down here..... but given the connections of the horse I'll not be holding my breath, they're not the easiest crew to get along with. I reckon coming to a reasonable arrangement with Norman Smiley to stand the horse down here would be up there with brokering a complete cessation of hostilities deal between Israel and Hamas.:p

[mango]

Hey Triple

You would think people would want to do a deal for there stallion to come down for 2 reasons. First they make more money and second more foals on the ground know matter where they are can only be good to get the stallion up and running with winners on the board. The problem would also be there asking price as it seems they wan't top $$$$ for all of them to come out here and with so many stallions out here already it's going to be hard to get your outlay back in a hurry unless they are priced right. If he was to come to Aus what price do you think he should be at to attract good books of mare's.

[nat]

Shark Gesture served around 44 mares with 18 foals at around the $5,000 mark from memory with no real hoopla now with his FFA record after returning to the track will makes him get more than just the one pass over by breeders, price for mine $3,000 to many good horses around $5,000. Did he have fertility issues when first at stud in the US? boy Cam's Card Sharks top 10 list is impressive so there is no reason Shark Gesture wouldn't cross well down here and be viable.

[triplev123]

He was a shy breeder Nat, at least he was when he came down here the first time. Low libido, he would rather eat grass than jump a mare. Maybe things have changed since then and the crew at Kentuckiana would know of course but I doubt they're telling. I hope that has changed and that he comes down again because he is without doubt THE TOUGHEST HORSE that I have seen in a long, long time. Serious hard arse with all the trimmings.
If you get a chance watch You Tube footage of George Brennan and Tim Tetrick stoking him up and putting him on the front end. Talk about never say die. I'd not think twice about supporting the horse, especially so with the aim of the resultant progeny racing at Menangle. That is exactly what you need. We've got a current 2yo filly by him that unfortunately will not race because of a bad knee but she shows her old man's influence in spades. She's as tough as a well done Elephant Rump Steak.

[nat]

I liked him when he came out but dint have the mare or cash to go to him at the time and when he started racing again and emerged as a force in the FFA ranks my heat sunk he has always been a handy horse no flash in the pan nice blood good record, they just need to put the right price on him and he could breed 100+ if he's up to it.

[mango]

Hi Nat

For Shark Gesture to get 100+ mare's they would have to price him right for sure and i still think he would struggle as people know he has already been out here and struggled to get mare's in foal.

[triplev123]

He didn't struggle to get mares in foal per se Mango, there wasn't anything wrong with him fertility wise, rather it was just didn't give a whole lot semen volume wise.
Quite a few sires in this part of the world, and notably 2 or 3 of the higher profile ones, are permanently or have periodically been that way inclined.

[mango]

Thanks for that info Triple, it does put a question mark on him comming out again if that is the case.

[triplev123]

To be fair, that issue was back when he was a straight off the track 4yo & it could just as easily have gone away by now Mango. I guess it will be a few more months before the current season's mares served data from the US/CAN becomes available and that'll tell the story one way or the other. As I alluded to earlier, I think the biggest stumbling block to his return to Oz or perhaps to NZ for the first time is much more likely to be Old Mate in Boca Raton, FL. I seriously doubt a particularly in-depth understanding and appreciation of the Southern Hemisphere breeding industry landscape is present & as such I'd bet my Cojones that telephone numbers are wanted.

[John Curtin]

Hi John

To be honest with you i thought he stood in Australia and that's why i put him in the Aus section. Looking at Art Major i reckon For A Reason looks alot like him. Do you have a pic of Art Official now that he has let down. And i'd have to agree with Triple SBSW looks a way better type strong all the way through.


Triple v i take it you have seen Art Official in the flesh i don't think you can judge a horse on look's from a race photo and the race photo's or videos don't do any horses much favour it would be interesting to see a photo of the horses when they are let down to see what they ended up like


Mango and Winston

I was never trying to compare Art Official to Somebeachsomewhere but I was trying to defend all the breeders that bred to the horse and the owners that invested heavily in the horse. Triplev123 was doing everything he could to knock the horse and in this breeding business that should not happen.

If you cannot say something good about a horse do not say anything. Yes have your own opinions but based on factual info not innuendo.

If Triplev123 was a horseman of any note he would never have even tried to compare any horse that is currently standing with Somebeachsomewhere as there isn’t any horse on the planet that looks as good as Somebeachsomewhere. He is on his own as an individual and possibly one of the greatest lookers and racehorse that we have ever seen.

I am currently in North America and have just been to see Art Official and taken some photos today and I am telling you I am not a good photographer but I have taken not bad shots. A professional will do a lot better but the photos will show you what the horse currently looks like. He is a standout individual and has great conformation.

The point I like to make here is that even today there has never been a so called professional conformation shot taken of Art Official to show just what a great looker he is. Hard to believe if you want to get the mares today you have to expose your horse to the breeders!

How can you get mares to a horse when he is not promoted well and you have so called breeders and talkers on forums like Triplev 123 trying to knock the horse sight unseen?

As an individual Art Official was always a very good looking racehorse and I was with the horse the night he last raced and right then you knew he would let down to a very impressive type.

He certainly looked good today and like Jonathan McNeil (Stud master in New Zealand that managed the breeding of Art Official) said when ever any breeder looked at the horse they always booked in.

I hope you enjoy the photos. It is the best I could do to show you the horse at present.

http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1306992880.jpg


http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1306993001.jpg


Here are just a couple of facts that some of you probably do not know about Art Official:


Art Official p3;1:47: $2,085,185 is Art Major’s fastest and richest son to date

Art Official was sold for US$2,75 million as a Sire. Who needs to knock the horse?
Art Major’s fastest time as a three year old was 1:50.1s so Art Official was a massive 3.1 seconds faster than his Sire.
Art Official came back as a four year old and went 1:47.4 to make him one of only a handful of horses that have paced in sub 1:48 two years in a row.
No doubt Art Official had amazing speed and was extremely tough as the video of him beating Somebeachsomewhere in the $1m Meadowlands Pace shows.
This race was not a one off situation as the driver of Art Official Ron Pierce claims that he felt that he could have beaten him again but the owners of Somebeachsomewhere never allowed the horse to race against him again.
Art Official has a pedigree to match his brilliance and been out of a Falcon Seelster mare should attracted a lot of breeders in New Zealand and Australia if they have done there homework.
Art Official has super fertility and has bred just on 100 mares (Two crops)in North America at a fee of $6000 which I thought was way too high. Probably full books if fee was a little lower.
Art Official bred some special mares in North America including one of the world’s greatest and richest mares called Eternal Camnation 1:49.2 and $4,129,390 in stakes.
With all this info and the record etc and the looks and conformation what more would a breeder want?
If this horse had been priced right and promoted right he should have served a huge book of mares in New Zealand and Australia.


John Curtin

[mango]

Hi John

Thanks for getting the pics it's much appreciated.

[triplev123]

#57 from Nat initially states.....17 for Art official seems a bit said wouldhave been DA MAN in the US if it wasn't for the freak SBSW, cannot fathom those numbers I rate him is it the Falcon Seelster in him?

#59 from myself in response... Very ordinary type Nat, at least to my eye anyway. For mine, watching him pacing along with SBSW was like watching a Ford Taurus pulling alongside a Lamborghini Gallardo.

#61 is your extended rant in response to the two line comment above, one which served to take things to a new level. Subsequent events are on your head John.

#62 from myself states... JC, if you're saying that with a straight face then youneed to get yourself along to OPSM for I fear that you may be suffering from Macular Degeneration or otherwise, Glaucoma. I have got an Optometrist mate whoworks at their Castle Hill store and can get you in any time you like. Please consider it in any case. Eyesight is a very precious thing and we need to takecare of it. This was followed by #63& #64, again both from myself, in which I offered clear comparison pictures of the horses being discussed.

In your latest effort, #91, you not only seek to spin more furiously than Warney ever did on a 4th & 5th day pitch in Islamabad but also doa little re-inventing of history along the way.

For starters, see #57. I didn’t raise the initial comparison of SBSW and AO. Another person did. I merely subsequently commented upon it from my viewpoint.

Back to #91 you state...[Triplev123was doing everything he could to knock the horse and in this breeding businessthat should not happen.]

Nah, go back and read through this thread again. That’s not the case at all. I made one comment in reply to #57... and as to the way I see things...and nothing else. Up until that point this could not possibly be construed as anything of the sort which you’ve alleged in brackets above.

However, undaunted in #61 and almost surely at the behest of your masters, you seized upon that comment like a ravenous seagull on a hot chip cast errantly upon the Corso& went to work.

In response to the various claims made in #61 it was with #63 & #64 that I offered some very clear & concise pictorial evidence to support my view and so refute yours.

Now, some two weeks later and rather interestingly,in your latest post, #91, all of a sudden you’ve plucked from the air the statement [ IfTriplev123 was a horseman of any note he would never have even tried to compare any horse that is currently standing with Somebeachsomewhere as there isn’t any horse on the planet that looks as good as Somebeachsomewhere. He is on his own as an individual and possibly one of the greatest lookers and racehorse that we have ever seen.]

I don’t understand. Now you’re taking the new position that it is unfair to offer the photos I did in that one instance to compare AO to SBSW, the original comparison made..........and yet in message #61 you were all for AO being a stunner and him being the image of Art Major??

The logic of your current position has me completely baffled.

Does it not mean that nobody can fairly compare SBSW to ANY other sire in terms of type?

If so John, are you not in fact completely supporting my original comment made way back in #51. i.e the Ford Taurus vs Lamborghini Gallardo?

[nat]

COMMENT 71
Hi Mango

The Seelster comment was to the fact of abundance of Seelster mare down under, no one will care what the stallion looks like as long as his progeny can run and you would think Art Official's record would speak for its self

I made this as I rate him and I have 2 Seelster mares and it puts me out as I dont like breeding that close I infact attempted to breed to Art Major for the Art Official cross

[Gtrain]

Wasnt Art Official rumoured to be a knee puncher? That can be a major turn off.

[John Curtin]

Here are some more images:
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307016075.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307015514.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307015843.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307015894.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307015784.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307016131.jpg
http://media.live.harnesslink.com/images/i1307016187.jpg

[triplev123]

Despite your vitriol...I'll stick by my word.
It's the least that I can do for a fellow human being who is clearly suffering.
The offer stands JC. Next time you're in Sydney, grab a Hire car and take a spin up to Castle Hill OPSM.
The Glaucoma and Macular Degeration check up can be done on a mates rates basis, I will make sure it is. Happy to vouch for you.
Btw, I understand you're in the US at the moment. May I suggest a stop-over in the UK and more specifically, in Wales during your return?
That way you could also get some pics of AO's dam.
She's currently in foal to Doonbeg I believe. Cost just $1,500 back in 2006. Lot 89 in the Tattersalls Mixed Sale. http://www.tattersallsredmile.com/tsalls/mixed/06janresults/61-90.html?a=1
Btw I also see...and let it be noted very much to my surprise... that there was no launch into Gtrain from you for his comment re AO's gait????.
It's not an aspect I can speak on with any authority but I thought for sure there'd at least be some level of public admonishment of Gtrain & a subsequent denial of same from your good self? You're slipping JC. Too many late nights with Kelvin. They're doing you no good at all. :rolleyes:

[Flashing Red]

While I'll agree (IMHO) that there is not a horse out there as beautifully gaited as Somebeachsomewhere, I personally know how hurtful it can be for even the smallest negative comment to be directed at a horse one owns or has been associated with. That's why I try to stick to statistics only and refrain from strong personal opinions...

[mango]

COMMENT 71
Hi Mango

The Seelster comment was to the fact of abundance of Seelster mare down under, no one will care what the stallion looks like as long as his progeny can run and you would think Art Official's record would speak for its self


I made this as I rate him and I have 2 Seelster mares and it puts me out as I dont like breeding that close I infact attempted to breed to Art Major for the Art Official cross

Hi Nat

Yes there is an abundance of Falcon mare's but there are a hell of a lot of other line's down here that he would match, if you go back and read my post you will notice i said having Falcon in him is a good thing. The reason why he didn't attract a lot of mare's was his service fee $$ and i'll stand by that. If you read JC's post you will notice he is of the same opinion.

[mango]

Hi Flashing Red

I was just wondering if you have any yearling's by Flashing Red and if so how'd they break in for you.

[Flashing Red]

Hi Flashing Red

I was just wondering if you have any yearling's by Flashing Red and if so how'd they break in for you.

Just one at the moment. One died during foaling and the other the mare died through the pregnancy overnight (I've mentioned that one before). So we have been unlucky. :( The one we do have was a poddy foal. She has the best personalty (she's one of my favorites) and took to breaking in very easily. She looks to be a nice mover, does not look like she is going to touch anywhere etc but obviously as yearlings they're not breaking any records at the training track yet! A friend of mine (trainer-driver) also has a Flashing Red filly and she has also been very pleased with her. Some people who have some in NZ messaged me on Facebook out of the blue a while ago and also said how pleased they were. From the photos I have seen, most of them look very similar, they definitely have Flash's head. With how he stamps them physically, lets hope his ability transpires into them too! Fingers crossed! :)
He may not become the next Bettors Delight, but the old boy deserved the shot and always has a home if he doesn't send the breeding shed on fire. He brought a number of people back into the game breeding mares they hadn't bred in a while etc and overall the support and kindness of everyone supporting him has been great. :) If he can produce tough, sound horses like himself he's done his job. :)

[nat]

Hi Mango

The comment wasn't directed at you just didn't know how to balloon the comment from the past, just that comment in Triplev123 post was taken a bit out of context and had to show post 71 see my reasoning

[mango]

Hi Nat

Yeah all good and thanks for clearing that up, so just out of curiosity where did you send you Falcon mare's.

[nat]

One's still going around and the other has a very stereotype like Cullen weanling to Gotta Go Cullect

[mango]

Hi Nat

I visited Alabar n.z in early april and had a look at Gotta Go Cullect and to be honest he was a little average in size and not overly long in the barrel, it will be interesting to see how he turns out when he has fully developed if he hasn't already. In saying this i saw a lot of his foals at Alabar and i have seen at least half a dozen by him owned by different people out here in Aus and they are cracking types very leggy with a bit of presence about them.

[triplev123]

I don't think Christian Cullen has left an heir yet. It's getting late in the movie too. If he's going to do so he'd want to hurry up about it. I reckon there's a big chance that he will flip over to the venerated damsire roll.

[nat]

Give them a chance Triplev123 his 4 better types have only been at stud a couple of years and I dont think they are even ready to race yet

[nat]

Hi Mango

If I had my choice it would have been Pay Me Christian but he is restricted on farm only.

[triplev123]

Nah, that's not quite what I meant Nat. What I meant there was that I can't see his heir arising from any of the currently at stud contenders.

[mango]

Hi Nat

I think the only one by C-C with a good chance of making it is Gotta Go Cullect due to him getting good books of mare's. As Pay Me Christian's semen doesn't travel that makes it hard for him straight away and Gotta Go Cullen for me is priced to high. I would love to see a pic of Gotta Go Cullen now that he has let down, he was of good size and length. If he had of been priced right i think he could of got a decent book of mare's.

[nat]

Don't forget Stunin Cullen for some reason he doesn't grab me, Gotta Go Cullen was priced to high he has the record but no time ,Ohoka Arizona I think may had been priced a little high to start with and Pay Me Christian poor production ability is a disappointment he was IMO the most exciting of them all cut short by injuries.

[mango]

Hi Nat

I was only thinking about Stunin Cullen when we started talking about C-C progeny, but he is not standing at stud as yet and probably won't for a while to come, since he had a throat operation he come back and done a great job and barring any problems i reckon he could be a horse to watch next year on the grand circuit. When at Breckon Farms in early april i got an up close look at Stunin Dude 2010 model and a full brother to Stunin Cullen and he was a very nice type and very leggy colt.

[triplev123]

I guess I'm waiting for the one that's close to being or the equal of his old man. Maybe I'll be waiting a long time, maybe forever. I hope that such a colt comes along before CC's passing. Of all the CC sons to date I have liked Ohoka Arizona the most.