aussie NZ cooperation

[buster]

my thoughts, the nz derby winner of this week should be offered an automatic invite to the NSW derby, so 1 less horse is taken from the heats or if they choose not to accept it they just use the heats as they are

and there should also be 1 discretionary invite for a 4 yr old from nz to race in the chariots and lure them away from the messenger, whether it was given to smiling shard after his hunter cup run or even to the winner of the forbury (4/5) race if they went good enough

imo would add another excitement factor by getting a horse over here that otherwise wouldnt come because they have to be in aussie for 2 weeks to qualify and race

[buster]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=88666

a very embarrassing article for dumnesy

[triplev123]

I'm of the completely opposite opinion to you Buster. I could not be more opposed to such an approach. Invites in such races are a complete & utter wank.
If the various aspirants can't or if they don't show up in order to compete in the lead up races or Heats or whatever...then up theirs. Someone else who does can take their place. That should include the Miracle Mile too btw.

[buster]

I think it just undermines the big races if the best aren't there

Traveling horses is not small feat and it is so disappointing that smiling shard won't in the chariots

[mango]

Hi Buster

I'll have to agree with you on this one, i'd like to see the best of the best race and to hand out one invite to a kiwi horse should be done. Not saying Smiling Shard would come but if he got an invite it would of made for more interesting racing. He is rated one of the best 4yr old's this year and done a great job through the inter series.

[eliteblood]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=88666

a very embarrassing article for dumnesy

I think the NSWHRC has got it right. They need to milk these feature races for their maximum benefit. If the best horses want to start in the Chariots, Miracle Mile, etc then turn up a few weeks beforehand and strut their stuff. One of the problems with our sport IMO is that the public don't get to see the star horses often enough.
Last week we got to see Lanercost and Motu Crusader, this week Russley Rascal and For A Reason. NSWHRC and the public are getting some value for the money that they have put up.
The scenario is even stronger leading up to the Miracle Mile. The club are putting up $750k and they need to maximize the outcome. That will not be the case by inviting horses to fly in a few days before, race once, and then fly home again.
I don't agree with John's last suggestion that 4YO's should be banned from the Inter Dominion. Plenty of 4YO's have performed very successfully in the past. I think owners and trainers are best placed to decide if their 4YO is ready to tackle an ID. That is their job and their right to make that decision. The administrators should leave the training of the horses to the horsemen.

[triplev123]

Buster, I'm as disappointed as anyone is that Smiling Shard will not be there...but it is their choice not to come. Nobody here's telling them that they have to stay at home.

For mine he would be a very welcome sight out at Menangle... plus I'm sure if they did come over that Cran & Dexter would have him right on his game.

On the subject of 4yos, the man is entitled to his opinion of course & if they're faithfully reproduced I think John's idea is well and truly on the conservative side to say the least.

It is also fair to say that he is not be alone in thinking along those lines.

For example, Paul Fitzpatrick has long been of a somewhat similar mindset in so far as he strongly believes in giving 4yos a 'relatively' quiet year to find their feet against the older horses before they go into the deep end at 5yrs & beyond. While I very much doubt he would be for preventing 4yos racing in the ID at the same time it would have to be an absolutely extraordinary 4yos for Paul to even think about dropping it into an ID series.

Maybe John has genuienly long held that leave them out of the ID's view and simply got the opportunity to express it. Maybe he was misquoted, maybe it is a bit of both and on top of all that he is looking to promote the upcoming Chariots Of Fire 4yo battle by way of floating an idea that he'd know would be received as pretty controversial. I don't agree with him, I think Owners & Trainers are best placed to work out whether their horses are up to ID Class at 4yrs.

[mango]

Hi Triple

Your correct it is there choice but for me he has done enough in the Inter series to warrant an invite.

Hi Eliteblood

It's a bit hard on a horse like Smiling Shard to turn up a few weeks before the Chariots as less than 12 days ago he was racing in the Inter final. I thought common sense would prevail to a certain degree about allowing one invite to the Chariots for a Kiwi horse.

[eliteblood]

Hi Mango,

Yes it would be hard but you can't race in everything. Smiling Shard's connection chose to compete in the ID at the expense of the Chariots. Russley Rascal's connections went the opposite way. Lance Justice missed the Hunter Cup with Smoken Up to concentrate on The ID. Sushi Sushi is missing the NSW Derby to be ready for other races later in the season. As a matter of interest, had Natalie Rasmussen requested that Blacks A Fake be allowed to go straight into the Auckland ID final without competing in the heats, would you be in favour? Would it have been fair to the other horses? Would it have robbed the NZ public of the opportunity to see him race three times?

[eliteblood]

I know this is going back a long way but I remember being at the 1990 Adelaide ID where 5 of the 9 heats were won by 4YO's.
6 of the 10 finalists were 4YO's, Weona Chief, Jane Ellen, Westburn Grant, All A Dream, Rockleigh Victory and Whitby Timer.
It would have been a very poor ID series if the 4YO's were banned from competing

[mango]

Hi Eliteblood

It's the Chariots a 4yr old race lol not the Inter, if they want the best sometime's you have to make concessions. Most people rate him as the best 4yr old going around so it would of been good to have him there.

[buster]

No smiling shard isn't coming because he has races at home and ge can't afford to spend 2 weeks in Sydney for a single race, but the idea of the invite is that the horse could potentially fly into Sydney compete and go straight home for nz races - there is no doubt that the horse is good enough so why doesn't Sydney want to do as much as possible to ensure he's there (or another good horse in the future)

If they can't coordinate races then they should aim to steal the best kiwi horses to compete for Aussie fans

[aussiebreno]

Firstly, I dont like the idea of a heat and final series for big money where no discretion is allowed. Eg, I dont like how there is only 2 heats and first 5 get in. The Hondo Grattan could come up with 7 or 8 genuine Chariots contenders; yet only 5 will qualify. Then the next week in the Paleface Adios we could have a a bunch of C2-5 NSW 4yos going around. So you could have a situation where a 4yo draws gate 10, goes off the arm to last, gets stuck in a traffic jam and flies home for 6th in 1.53. Then next week a cat draws 1, gets leaders back; and then loom at the top of the straight only to fade away into 5th in 1.57. Tell me who makes the Chariots field better? They both turned up for the prelims but one got a rough end of the stick (thats racing I understand). But 5th is hardly a difference to 6th. Unlike races like the APG or Bathurst or Derbys where there are more heats so its usually 3rd past the post gets in. In this situation the heats are held on the same day and/or fields are decided by ballot based on rating or there are multiple heats for an extra oppurtunity.

Secondly, I dont like token invitations. They must deserve it. Look at Rohan Home and to a lesser extent Make Mine Cullen; token invitations for the Miracle Mile and detracted from the race.

[Shakamaker]

If the clash of dates between a Group 1 4yo race in NZ and the Chariots of Fire remains in the future, the very best NZ 4yo horses will not contest the Chariots.

Why travel overseas when you can race for more money in NZ and contest three Group 1 races restricted to 4yo's in NZ over a 6 week period?

The Chariots of Fire will suffer here because the best Kiwi 4yo's will not be there. On the other hand some of the top Australian 4yo's may still target the Messenger and will have the opportunity to race in the Chariots and then board a plane for Auckland a few days later and race the following Friday Night in the Messenger.

[mango]

For me i see the Chariots as the premier 4yr old race so i'd like to see the best of the best 4yr old's in the race. Why didn't they make it that the first 4 in the Hondo/Paleface qualify and then use there discretion to invite a horse or two and if nothing of importance was racing or deserved a position in the field then give it to the two 5ths in the heats.

[aussiebreno]

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=88666

a very embarrassing article for dumnesy

Theres a carnival going on at Menangle? Really, are they promoting it, whats it called?

No matter how they race the Derby horses arent going to get anywhere near SBSWs 1.46.

Two wrongs dont make a right....and whats wrong with the Auckland Cup being when it was anyway? ...or is he going back to last year....where it didnt affect the ID anyway :s .. Monkey King, Changeover, Baileys Dream, Pembrook Benny, Bondy and Awesome Armbro IIRC

I remember the good old days when Queen Victoria and King Henry IV would bring their dinosaurs to London one day and then race them in County Kent the next.

Whens he getting his trainers licence? He seems to know how to produce a champion whereas blokes like Butt have no idea :s

[buster]

the autumn trotting carnival haha

[nat]

There's two things here

1) Major race planning there is none within the states yet alone with NZ we are all separate entities but we need each other to survive as one. Why cannot this be set out at the start of the season with all parties to make a true grand circuit from 2yld to open class pacers & trotters fillies to mares, colts to stallions have it set out so there could be that horse can win 6 derby and that million dollar earning juveniles are achievable
2) I like heats and I'm not a real fan of walk up contender look at the Miracle Mile where was Monkey King in the finish this year if he raced he would have been fitter or found out and be out. If you want the best then they have to do their best to gain entry to the top races we are lucky at this stage that a lot of races you don't have to be paid up for like some futurities as they do in the US

Hi eliteblood I attended that Inter with my dad and brother driving a HZ Ute traveled 600km round trip each night for the heats and final great memories

[triplev123]

Nat writes [1) Major race planning there is none within the states yet alone with NZ ]

SMACK! Hit the nail square on the head and drove it deep into the timber. Nice one Nat.
Btw, LOVE the idea of a 2yo & 3yo GC. Excellent.

[nat]

We all depend on each other all the states both countries if one fails or falls over we will be in big trouble that why I do get a bit ruffled when people down play S.A. & Tassie part in the big picture tell me what would happen not just here but in the US if NZ racing and breeding went to the wall. That's why it gets me when some players in the industry start having a pissing competition over these big events and try to lure and override the other. Where would NSW be if all those great great horse never turned up for the Miracle Miles because another race with similar prestige was on.

As to the age, sex and gait racing we need to go forward and drive our product make stars of our horses put them on the pedestal so when some one says who is the best in 2011 it's in your face on the record the series events need to be structured and move along like a circus not one week in W.A then NZ then Vic and back to W.A. they wouldn't do it with BAF in his prime and no one could beat him so why would you with any other horse

[triplev123]

I get very annoyed from an Owner's point of view re Racing opportunities.
I realise that some clashes simply cannot be avoided but if there was greater co-ordination and a little more give & take (both Australia wide and from NZ) then I am certain many of them could be avoided. A lot of it is sheer bloodymindedness I'm sure. Good horses come along so rarely that should you be lucky enough to get one...the structure of the Stakes season should be such that it is possible/feasible to travel and race all over Australia & NZ should you so desire. Have good horse, will travel.

[Don Corleone]

Totally 100% agree with you Nat. Here in NZ we only have 2 major clubs and up till a season or 2 ago they were each trying to grab each others headlines. My own club used to hold a very sucessful 4 year old group race. A club in the same island as us decided they would hold a 4 year old race a few days beofre ours and increase their stake, so we increased our stake and they increased theirs..........hopeless. We were both trying to grab the best 4 year olds from the same pool of horses. In the end both races for a few years had substandard fields. A bit of collaberation could of stopped both clubs wasting close on a 100k.
Lets get together (over a nice red) map out a plan that shows those who don't know about Harness Racing what a brilliant industry it is. Get our Smokin Up's, Let Me Thru, Annicka, Smiling Shards, Sushi Shushi out into the limelight where they belong. Promote the hell out of them.

[Flashing Red]

I'm of the completely opposite opinion to you Buster. I could not be more opposed to such an approach. Invites in such races are a complete & utter wank.
If the various aspirants can't or if they don't show up in order to compete in the lead up races or Heats or whatever...then up theirs. Someone else who does can take their place. That should include the Miracle Mile too btw.

I agree with you. If a horse can't run in the first half of a field in an elimination, there is good argument that it shouldn't be in the final. However, I also would prefer to see mutliple opportunities (ie staged eliminations over a couple of weeks) - if you can't run in the first 5 two weeks in a row - you really SHOULDN'T be in a final.
How political the Miracle Mile selection is, is just a negative aspect to the race and really takes away from its credibility IMHO. Last Miracle Mile, Melpark Major's connections were told they would not receive an invite if they didn't travel to try and qualify, despite Melpark Major's last start win over eventual Miracle Mile winner Smoken Up. Glen Douglas REFUSED to travel Make Mine Cullen, but SHE had DIFFERENT rules. Granted, she was the best mare in Australia at the time, but the best horses in Australasia is no race for a mare, or any horse having its first grand circuit start. The Miracle Mile is not the race to see if you can go with the big boys (no matter what your sex). Save that for the Truer, the SA Cup, the Len Smith, whatever. NOT the Miracle Mile. They could have put her in the Legends Mile, won by Villagem. But they dodged that and put her in an easier mares race on that night. BOTH horses refused to travel. One horse was told that they wouldn't get in because of this. This horse was a grand circuit winner and was started to run back into some form, beating nice horses. The other was given special treatment for no stated reason. She had not competed in a grand circuit race before and had dodged a traditional invite race in the Legends Mile. THAT is why I like heats/eliminations. It removes the politics out of selection.

[Flashing Red]

I get very annoyed from an Owner's point of view re Racing opportunities.
I realise that some clashes simply cannot be avoided but if there was greater co-ordination and a little more give & take (both Australia wide and from NZ) then I am certain many of them could be avoided. A lot of it is sheer bloodymindedness I'm sure. Good horses come along so rarely that should you be lucky enough to get one...the structure of the Stakes season should be such that it is possible/feasible to travel and race all over Australia & NZ should you so desire. Have good horse, will travel.

Here here, I agree!

[buster]

flash, i see your point, that is why there should only be 1 invite issued for the nz winner of derby /messenger, so then everyone knows where they stand and no aspect of politics

[Flashing Red]

If it was automatic "win this group 1 race and you're in" maybe that would be OK too. I just HATE politics in race selection!

[aussiebreno]

flash, i see your point, that is why there should only be 1 invite issued for the nz winner of derby /messenger, so then everyone knows where they stand and no aspect of politics

So you were for Rohan Home starting in the Miracle Mile? A look back through you posts would suggest you werent

[Flashing Red]

So you were for Rohan Home starting in the Miracle Mile? A look back through you posts would suggest you werent

They can have between 6 - 8 horses. If I remember correctly (I may not! lol!) I suggested that that particular Miracle Mile should have only had 6 runners, IMHO. However, since this discretion came into force (ie minimum 6 runners, maximum 8) they have ALWAYS had 8. I don't think they should feel obliged to fill those two extra spots to allow potentially the "next rung" of horses through (but I'm assuming they do for turnover?). Perhaps I was discussing this when people were discussing about "their" Miracle Mile fields or using the Newcastle Mile as a reason to give a token NSW horse a run. I can't remember directly saying I didn't feel the horse shouldn't be in there (but I'm sure if I did you will quickly point that out!) as I have always liked/stood up (cough*buster*cough) for the horse in the past... :) I didn't think the last Newcastle Mile was an "automatic" entry... wasn't there still some discretion involved? I understand it to be an automatic qualifier from now on, however?

[buster]

who said i thought the newcastle mile should be an invite race? it is really on the same level as the nz cup?

[aussiebreno]

I agree with you FR, they dont use the 6 or 7 horse field discretion for turnover reasons.
I wont scourge through your history; I reckon you wouldnt have been vocal against the horse just because of your nature! Buster on the other hand I reckon he wouldnt have wanted Rohan Home in (didnt actually look through his posting). Newcastle Mile hasnt been automatic entry in past (even though most get invited anyway) havent heard about the change to automatic now but that is interesting and will cause plenty of debate come November!

And my bad, I thought Rohan Home won the Cordina (automatic invite)not the Newcastle...now I remember Our Malabar going crazy and Washakie winning in a then record...but point stands because the Cordina winner rarely places in the Miracle Mile. How does the NSW officials know a year in advance that the Cordina winner will be a worthy addition, or if the NZ Derby/Messenger winner will be a worthy addition to the field? They cant get it 100% right a week or two out (Rohan Home/MMC) let alone a year out when the race conditions would be written

[Flashing Red]

Actually, it was mybad, I thought you had quoted me, but your comment was to Buster. So you can ignore my post! :P