Smoken up returns a positive

[Duane Ranger]

Will Smoken up be stripped of his 2011 Inter Dominion pacing title? Only time will tell.

http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=88697

[Iraklis]

If it proves to be so, I certainly hope so! and I hope Justice gets the book thrown at him! I believe the first 5 home in the final were sampled so it would be very interesting to see how all of the others fared, check em all I say..............over the years being around harness racing and the people involved, I have had it said to me several times by 'people who know' and I quote ' if any horse takes off at the 600/400 rips round em and takes off, they're on something', now look back over the races (any races) and make the judgement for yourself, in fact I was sitting with some people and we all watched Smoken Up's effort in the 2nd night heats, they were all racehorse owners, trainers, breeders etc and one of the comments made was 'well thats that he's gutted that horse, unless he's on something he'll never get up of the track next week' they were all in agreement!!............in the final the comment was 'oh hell he's on something' and 'there'll be a positive swab you wait and see'..........tah dah there we have it

Cheers Iraklis

[mango]

Hi Iraklis

Lance would not be as stupid to use something as simple as DMSO, i went out to dinner a few years back with Lance and some of the owners of Smoken Up it was around the time of BLUE MAGIC and i can tell you he said to throw them all out of the game the bloke is 100% against drugs. The people you know might want to look at the changing of the horse the breed and time's over the last 10 years and look at how much they have changed. We now have 3 yr olds going 55.7 over 2300m 2 yr olds going 54 over a mile so why is it so hard to think a top horse on his game can't do that. Take a look at his race's over the past 2yrs and then read the stewards report and see how many pre race and post race swabs Smoken Up has had taken and then come back and tell me how many positives he has had. What was your thinking on Geoff Small and Mark Purdon and there cases i mean one admitted to using BLUE MAGIC. So the people that you say are in the KNOW what era are they from.

[Iraklis]

Hi there Mango,

Anyone who does the doping thing is just as bad as any other cheatin mongrel! Aussie or Kiwi or whatever! and in your defensive stance (somewhat over the top) you missed the point!!!!! I mentioned nothing about DMSO! or the times in the race! neither did I rubbish the horse anyway! and the people I spoke about have been around the sport for many years in all capacities as mentioned in my post!......the point is, 'the people I was with picked it' and I for one was hopin like hell they were wrong! no one finds it hard to believe a top horse can do those times at the top his game (its a pure pleasure to behold I might add), however do it whilst 'YOU ARE CLEAN' and it certainly doesn't matter what 'era you are from' either buddy dirty is dirty in any era!!!!! okay...............

Cheers Iraklis.

PS. Read the start of my post again, and calm down you'll develop an ulcer or something................ :)

[buster]

Pretty sure lance has had positive swabs before

[aussiebreno]

If it proves to be so, I certainly hope so! and I hope Justice gets the book thrown at him! I believe the first 5 home in the final were sampled so it would be very interesting to see how all of the others fared, check em all I say..............over the years being around harness racing and the people involved, I have had it said to me several times by 'people who know' and I quote ' if any horse takes off at the 600/400 rips round em and takes off, they're on something', now look back over the races (any races) and make the judgement for yourself, in fact I was sitting with some people and we all watched Smoken Up's effort in the 2nd night heats, they were all racehorse owners, trainers, breeders etc and one of the comments made was 'well thats that he's gutted that horse, unless he's on something he'll never get up of the track next week' they were all in agreement!!............in the final the comment was 'oh hell he's on something' and 'there'll be a positive swab you wait and see'..........tah dah there we have it

Cheers Iraklis

It isnt that ill conceived a horse can take off at the 400/600 and win by a space...that would mean they have great top speed...you cant give any drug in the world to increase top speed unless its theurapetic.

[Shakamaker]

I cannot believe this. Lance Justice has been on the Grand Circuit for 4 years with Smoken Up and would have been tested hundreds of times and all have been negative. Then somehow in his biggest win he returns a positive. What about his two heat wins? I assume they have been negative but somehow the Final is positive. Lance would have known that the Grand Finalists would have been thoroughly tested and scrutinised so I cannot believe that he would knowingly give the horse something that is prohibited. The new Integrity Unit would want to make sure that their processes in respect of swabbing etc are spot on because I think that they are going to be examined very closely as a result of this positive swab. It will be interesting to see the result of the reserve sample.

[Ziggy]

\ in fact I was sitting with some people and we all watched Smoken Up's effort in the 2nd night heats, they were all racehorse owners, trainers, breeders etc and one of the comments made was 'well thats that he's gutted that horse, unless he's on something he'll never get up of the track next week' they were all in agreement!!............in the final the comment was 'oh hell he's on something' and 'there'll be a positive swab you wait and see'..........tah dah there we have it
Cheers Iraklis

Hey Iraklis, All of smoken ups swabs were clear except final night so "Tah Dah" You were not right..

I agree whole heartedly with Shakamaker, something is very suss.

[mango]

Hi Iraklis

Na don't get ulcers lol, i read your post and added some of mine. I've watched Smoken Ups race's over the last 2 yr's like you mentioned in your first post and Lance has drove him the same the majority of the time including heat and final of the Inter so what judgement would you like me to make. The horse has probably been swabbed more than most whilst racing the same way and has never returned a positive. I mentioned the DMSO as thats what the positive is suppose to be for. And time's i mentioned them to point out what horses are capable of doing these day's, if a 3yr old can run 55.7 over the 2300m i sure a horse like Smoken Up can go alot faster and do a lot more work so taking off at the 600m is know big thing.

[Mighty Atom]

We'll all have to wait and see what the reserve sample result is, however,as I've said before most of these top horses are performance enhanced. They cannot go around week after week putting in gut busting runs just on good feed programs, that's why these stables have top vets looking after them. With administration of drugs there is no room for slip-ups. You may get away with it nine times out of ten but one miscalculation and your busted. If it's proven to be nothing amiss with the analytical program and another positive is the result then game up - your nabbed.

[Flashing Red]

as I've said before most of these top horses are performance enhanced. They cannot go around week after week putting in gut busting runs just on good feed programs, that's why these stables have top vets looking after them.

Honestly what a crock of ..... ! :( So a trainer races his horse every 7 days, he comes home from the race and gives his horse injectable bute (6 day withdrawal). He gets tested his next start (7 days later) and nothing comes up, because THERE IS NOTHING IN HIS SYSTEM. So these trainers, who follow withdrawal periods, are using "performance enhancing drugs"? Just because a stable gets a vet out weekly, or whatever, even daily, does not mean they are racing their horses on performance enhancing drugs! If it's not in their system raceday, how can it be performance enhancing? Following withdrawal periods is not "trying to prevent a slip-up" (ie somehow trying to gain an edge in the horse's following race). Horses CAN race week in week out, even having hard runs everytime out, without any help. You just don't do much with them in between races to keep them fresh. :) There is a difference between therapeutic and performance enhancing drugs. :)

[Mighty Atom]

If a positive is returned with the reserve sample I'll be very interested in what the excuse is.

[Mighty Atom]

Hello Flashing Red , this may be some years ago but I have treated a horse with a Therapeutic Drug and I can tell you it was certainly an enhanced performance.

[Flashing Red]

Enhanced its performance, or made it perform to its best natural capabilities? That's all my argument is :)

[Iraklis]

Hey Ziggy, you missed point too! tah dah 'THEY PICKED IT' and if it proven tah dah there you have it!!! OK

Mango, mate fully aware of what speeds racehorses can do both Standardbred and thoroughbred, been there done that; they were not just talkin about Smokin Ups races only (literal little toady aint yuh) any races where one has taken off and cleared out, it took me awhile to see it but Ive had it said to me too many times by too many people, and if you look at some past races it makes you bloody wonder I tell you...............

Shakamaker, Im feelin yuh man! I too had a scare when it appeared in the news that The Butts were in the gun for an irregularity that threatened to overshadow The Mighty Freak...............Im feelin yuh

Aussiebreno, interestingly the people sitting with me that night were trainers, owners, breeders and a vet! its been mostly owners and trainers who made this observation known to me............

Cheers Iraklis

[mango]

Hi Iraklis

So yourself and the trainers who probably can't train to save themselves or are just outright jealous is that anyone that clears out is using common you'll have to do better than that, i can live with being a literal little toady but you don't sound real smart with your tah dah lol have you at least finished school yet.

[aussiebreno]

Hey Ziggy, you missed point too! tah dah 'THEY PICKED IT' and if it proven tah dah there you have it!!! OK

Mango, mate fully aware of what speeds racehorses can do both Standardbred and thoroughbred, been there done that; they were not just talkin about Smokin Ups races only (literal little toady aint yuh) any races where one has taken off and cleared out, it took me awhile to see it but Ive had it said to me too many times by too many people, and if you look at some past races it makes you bloody wonder I tell you...............

Shakamaker, Im feelin yuh man! I too had a scare when it appeared in the news that The Butts were in the gun for an irregularity that threatened to overshadow The Mighty Freak...............Im feelin yuh

Aussiebreno, interestingly the people sitting with me that night were trainers, owners, breeders and a vet! its been mostly owners and trainers who made this observation known to me............

Cheers Iraklis
I don't care who they are it doesnt make their opinion any more or less important than mine....trainers shouldnt be using performance enhancing drugs in the first place to know what it does to horses, I could be an owner for all you know (dont need to know anything about a horse to pay a bill each month), since when were breeders an expert on performance enhancing drugs, I didnt know breeders raced their horses as foals and yearlings? and shouldn't vet school be about theurapetic drugs and helping animals rather than performance enhancing drugs.
Lets say a horse on pure natural ability can run one lone quarter in 28. Are you trying to tell me all things being equal give this horse a drug and all of a sudden it can run a quarter in 27 (because one fast quarter is what it takes to go bang at the 400m and win by a space)???

[Flashing Red]

Iraklis-
It is amazing who comes out of the woodwork, those tall poppy cutters seem to emerge from everywhere whenever the word "positive" is mentioned. You have been out with force getting your owner/trainer/vet story heard on internet forums.
I think you will find yourself outnumbered here. May I suggest you look up DMSO and find out exactly what it can and can't do. May I suggest you also look up true performance enhancing drugs, such as Blue Magic and EPO, to see exactly what they WILL make a horse do.
To start off with, while Smoken Up has in his career put in some outstanding runs, not one has ever defied belief or been unobtainable for the best and fittest standardbreds in our game over the years. If you want to see a horse "clear out", may I suggest you watch Auckland Reactor's very first race in America in an open - the winner was two starts back claimed for $40,000 and improved about 4 seconds (20 lengths) in a week to win the open (FFA). It was amazing to watch the turnaround, and just about the best "run off the screen" example I can give you. :)
In light of the first sample returning a positive to traces of DMSO (a drug that is allowable in a horse's system to a specified threshold - because it is NOT performance enhancing - indeed, Smoken Up's first sample only showed it to be marginally over the allowable level) your friends really do seem quite silly and are carrying on like the horse was on a performance enhancing drug, for example EPO. It is actually quite alarming that one of them was a vet - they really should know better. Perhaps they were a small animal vet, they certainly couldn't be a horse vet! I also presume these owners and trainers surrounding yourself must also be in the small time and not constantly around horses or attending race meetings. May I ask, were they all New Zealanders? Perhaps their comments were tongue-in-cheek in light of the good old Kiwi-Aussie rivalry :) Positive or not, none of Smoken Up's runs in his entire career have ever defied logic and to suggest otherwise, especially regarding his Interdom series runs, means you and your friends still have a lot to learn. Or perhaps you just misunderstood them?

I really hope for Lance's sake that this second swab comes back negative. Some comments, most under non de plumes, have been quite hurtful and I think undeserved.

[buster]

i think iraklis has twisted this a bit

if the second swab is over he has to lose the race and be suspended/fined according to the circumstances of the dmso being used

some of lances comments since have just been ridiculous and hes not helping his cause

[Mighty Atom]

i think iraklis has twisted this a bit

if the second swab is over he has to lose the race and be suspended/fined according to the circumstances of the dmso being used

some of lances comments since have just been ridiculous and hes not helping his cause
You are absolutely right buster, if the reserve swab comes back positive he has to loose the race otherwise a great injustice was done to Graeme Rogerson who lost the Harness Jewels victory when Muscle and Power returned a positive to DSMO.

[tyson]

Aussiebreno, Im an owner and i know a bit about the day in / day out of a stable and horses. I guess i did work in one from when i was 12, so i should know a little. I think all owners should take the time to head down to the stable and have a look at the day to day runnning of it, Get an understanding of the terminology that trainers use. I ring my trainers all the time and even flown over to nsw for a couple of days to see the horses work/trial. I would hate to pay a bill and not understand if i was getting ripped.

But with all this talk on performance enhancing drugs. I don't like seeing them buzzed off their brain. But can anyone really say they are using performance enhancing drugs if it hasn't returned a positive. We all know what they test for and there is always new stuff out there. What about Cobra venom ? Maybe that snake just happen to give a little bite mixed with a little bit of water accidently in america ? Do you think thats made its way to Aus yet ? Most likely.......

Lance is just going to have to deal with what ever comes his way!!!!!

[Iraklis]

Mango Mango Mango or should I say Yulestar Yulestar Yulestar...........More than finished school pal, obviously you haven't! the tah dah (I could've used another form but it wouldn't be tolerated in here) was just a form of punctuation, but I would have thought someone of intelligence would have known that!!! now to the rest of you who also cannot read and or are unable to understand what is written.......at no stage have I assumed his guilt 'I SAID IF PROVEN' and neither did I say anyone's views are more or less important then anyone else's, and neither did I say anywhere that it is okay to give any horse a drug to make it do whatever! far from it! if anyone has anything twisted in here you lot have! strikes me my post has hit a real big nerve, what is that I ask could it be alot of guilty consciences..........suggestion 'READ MY ORIGINAL POST PROPERLY!' (include the 2nd one to).........okay, now the lot of you are jumpin up and down about what exactly???? from a group of comments made to me Finals night to which I might add I was skeptical about, to now when the news broke at no stage have I assumed the mans guilt, what has me incredulous is that the test returned an irregularity the people I was with picked it, THE POINT! if it has always been so obvious and I'm not ONLY talking about Justice HOW COME NOTHING MORE IS BEING DONE TO CUT IT OUT OVERALL!

Cheers Iraklis

PS. breno: only mentioned the people I was sitting with to show these were people who would know about such matters, over the years there have been others, stewards, racecourse inspectors etc etc the POINT WAS those comments have been consistent over the years, and everybody knows about it, so why all the bluster.............or is it I'm not supposed to say it! yeah right..........

[aussiebreno]

Aussiebreno, Im an owner and i know a bit about the day in / day out of a stable and horses. I guess i did work in one from when i was 12, so i should know a little. I think all owners should take the time to head down to the stable and have a look at the day to day runnning of it, Get an understanding of the terminology that trainers use. I ring my trainers all the time and even flown over to nsw for a couple of days to see the horses work/trial. I would hate to pay a bill and not understand if i was getting ripped.

But with all this talk on performance enhancing drugs. I don't like seeing them buzzed off their brain. But can anyone really say they are using performance enhancing drugs if it hasn't returned a positive. We all know what they test for and there is always new stuff out there. What about Cobra venom ? Maybe that snake just happen to give a little bite mixed with a little bit of water accidently in america ? Do you think thats made its way to Aus yet ? Most likely.......

Lance is just going to have to deal with what ever comes his way!!!!!

Thats great Tyson. I wasnt saying owners can't / don't know about horses I was just saying it isn't a pre-requisite.

You then go on to say you can't say performance enhancing drugs are being used if it hasn't returned a positive....then say its most likely snake venom is in Aus. There has been no positives to snake venom so you contradict yourself.

[mango]

Hi Iraklis

I've read your post as others have on this Forum and for the life of me i still can't understand your taking of at the 600/400 so come explain it better because as i and other's understand it your saying no horse can do this without help. Now lets just use Smoken Up for example this horse has been racing the same way for the past 3 yrs and in his 2 heats before the final and has never recieved a positive but as you say and the experts you were associated with you can't do this without help. I could name a few more horses who have done the same over years and never got a positive but i don't want to waste my time. And by all means don't be afraid to say what you really think instead of beating around the bush i can handle being called name's . I'm glad that you have finished school but maybe that was a long time ago and your out of touch with what horses are capable of dong in today's world. The only thing i will agree with you is that the sport does not need people who use drugs.

[aussiebreno]

Mango Mango Mango or should I say Yulestar Yulestar Yulestar...........More than finished school pal, obviously you haven't! the tah dah (I could've used another form but it wouldn't be tolerated in here) was just a form of punctuation, but I would have thought someone of intelligence would have known that!!! now to the rest of you who also cannot read and or are unable to understand what is written.......at no stage have I assumed his guilt 'I SAID IF PROVEN' and neither did I say anyone's views are more or less important then anyone else's, and neither did I say anywhere that it is okay to give any horse a drug to make it do whatever! far from it! if anyone has anything twisted in here you lot have! strikes me my post has hit a real big nerve, what is that I ask could it be alot of guilty consciences..........suggestion 'READ MY ORIGINAL POST PROPERLY!' (include the 2nd one to).........okay, now the lot of you are jumpin up and down about what exactly???? from a group of comments made to me Finals night to which I might add I was skeptical about, to now when the news broke at no stage have I assumed the mans guilt, what has me incredulous is that the test returned an irregularity the people I was with picked it, THE POINT! if it has always been so obvious and I'm not ONLY talking about Justice HOW COME NOTHING MORE IS BEING DONE TO CUT IT OUT OVERALL!

Cheers Iraklis

PS. breno: only mentioned the people I was sitting with to show these were people who would know about such matters, over the years there have been others, stewards, racecourse inspectors etc etc the POINT WAS those comments have been consistent over the years, and everybody knows about it, so why all the bluster.............or is it I'm not supposed to say it! yeah right..........

To the first part of your post aimed at Mango; this isnt just about Smoken Up; but any other horse that has cleared out and won (even though Smoken Up didnt really clear out). Not every horse who clears out and wins is on juice. How you can say that; not even as a generalisation (which would be ridiculous in itself) but as a 100% fact every time it happens. Its a ridiculous accusation. I know of another horse who if he does much work will die in the arse. But give him a sit and let him go for a final sprint and if he is at his best I would back him to run down any 3yo; Sushi Sushi being a possible exception. So with his style of racing when he goes bang and clears out late you are saying he is on drugs when I know 110% its TLC. In fact imo if he was on drugs he would be a star because he would sustain his sprint for longer.

So tell me HOW exactly these people know what a performance enhancing drug does to a horse?
Trainers: Shouldnt be experimenting with performance enhancing drugs so shouldnt know
Owners: Have no need; they dont handle the horse daily and as I said all they need to do is write a cheque out.
Breeders: Since when did broodmares, foals and yearlings race or need performance enhancing drugs? How would breeders know?
Vets: Vets give drugs to fix problems; the majority wouldn't experiment to see what certain substances do and those that do would only know (these figures are made up) that drug A expands the lung capacity by 15% or relieves the joint pain by 10%....they wouldnt know how that correlates to the racetrack as that shouldnt be the reason they are experimenting. If they are they are f***ing dodgy people who you are hanging out with
Stewards: Fair dinkum I dont know if you are from Australia or NZ but the Australian stewards wouldnt know shit from clay....and judging by the whole Geoff Small saga I'm guessing its actually worse in NZ.
Racecourse inspectors: What are these; club volunteers given a special role?
Those comments have not been consistent over the years. Hardly ever have I seen a horse do no work early then sprint home late and then people call for its head that its on drugs. Its when horses do work early/middle (as opposed to sprinting at the 400/600) and still grind on is when the drug accusations occur.
If you look back through my posts you will see I am dead against drugs. Your argument is like this; if a McDonalds worker says their quarter pounders and fries are good for you then they must be.

[buster]

Still can't work out what iraklis is talking about

Seems clear cut to me, the horse try's his guts out every week and lance hardly stops him, so obviously the horse will be in pain after the race and is treated with whatever, lance fuc$ed up and gave it to hI'm too close to the race

But we still need the second swab to he done

trainers need vets and the kiwis use them nearly as much as the yanks do

[Mighty Atom]

Over the years I have seen performances from horses that defy logic and have returned a negative result. Most of them have been trained by the top echelon of trainers and many of them over their careers have returned irregular or positive swabs.I've seen one of our top trainers over here in the west with absolutely no concern about positioning the horse for an advantage, he would just circle the field and sit in the death and win most of the time, not with just one or two horses but with most. I've seen a champion horse come out on the track for his prelim, heavily bandaged, bobbing his head around like he's walking through hot coals and wins with a leg in the air, blind Freddy can see something ain't right. Just because a horse returns a negetive does not mean they're not on something. Another of our top trainers was caught drenching his horse in the float just after he had won a major race, it was a sweltering night and the horse would have obviously lost a lot of fluid. This could have been perceived as a therapeutic treatment however the stewards didn't think so and he got time. While I grant you that it's a lot more difficult to get away with anything these days because of the high tech testing, its not stopping trainers from trying to gain an advantage. You would have to be very naive to think otherwise.

[tyson]

Thats great Tyson. I wasnt saying owners can't / don't know about horses I was just saying it isn't a pre-requisite.

You then go on to say you can't say performance enhancing drugs are being used if it hasn't returned a positive....then say its most likely snake venom is in Aus. There has been no positives to snake venom so you contradict yourself.

The reason why they are classed as performance enhancing drugs, Because if its aministrated within that timeline and show up on race day then it is performance enhancing. If your swab comes back clear then i guess your within the guidelines and it doesn't counr as being drugged.

Also on the snake venom. I did have America at the end of the quote. Also the first case registered of the stuff being found in the fridge of a stable in the states was from an Australian vet. So yeh i wonder if it has made its way here ?

[Flashing Red]

The reason why they are classed as performance enhancing drugs, Because if its aministrated within that timeline and show up on race day then it is performance enhancing. If your swab comes back clear then i guess your within the guidelines and it doesn't counr as being drugged.

That isn't strictly true. For example Bute stops actively working on a horse's system approx. 12 hours after the initial dose. However, it can be detected (even though it does jack all) for a further 6 days. After 24 hours however, there wouldn't be a remote chance that it had any affect on a horse whatsoever.

[DAZZA]

Iraklis ... give it up mate! Any horse that takes off at the 600 and wins is on something? Well Holy Camp Boy should have returned 20 odd positives than, any horse that takes off 3 wide solo at the bell and wins must be returning positives all day. What about a horse that takes off 3 wide at the 800, makes ground and ends up running a faster last half than the winner because hes wide? Is he also on something? If the sport is so rigged that every horse that wins taking off at the 600 is on something, than I suggest that you are the idiot. Because why would someone who is so convinced that 1 out of every 3 races is won by a drugged up horse continues to follow the sport and I'd dare say bet on it, would have to be the biggest idiot out of everyone, even more than the trainer treating the so called horses taking off at the 600 !

And I also dare say that the trainers and owners you were standing are the types of ones who couldnt train a pig to roll in sh*t and label anyone who can train a horse a cheat simply because they are jealous!

[Mighty Atom]

I'm amazed they still use Phenylbutazone, its been around since the Battle of Trafalgar.

[Flashing Red]

It works, what can I say! :P One thing I liked about racing in America - because you were allowed trace amounts in the horse's system, you could give it at 24 hours. I would always give some to my horses after their mid week hobble and then the day before the race. I was the biggest bagger of bute before I went over there (I am partial to alternative & herbal medicine myself) - but my tune changed when I had claimers that had had 200+ and 300+ lifetime starts... a little bute here and there kept them going and happy and took away those wear and tear niggles :)

[Mighty Atom]

Some of the old trainers in the west like Bill Johnson (top trainer in the 50's & 60's) had some amazing herbal potions they had developed particularly for leg problems. There's still a place in modern racing for some of the old remedies.

[Iraklis]

I have been going to harness races since 1975 got invloved in 1985, but it has only been over the past 18yrs or so that these comments have been made to me, although they have gotten a helluva lot more regular, and they have been suspiciously accurate when made........and just to reiterate, THE COMMENTS WERE NOT MINE BUT THOSE OF PEOPLE AROUND ME (made on several occassions over the years), hell I just like to see em run! I DO NOT however bet, I have been an owner/breeder, I just love the sports side of harness racing.

Expanation: 'to hook out at the 600/400 take off round em and go, and keep on goin' pretty self explanatory, and I say again NOT EVERY HORSE THAT WINS THIS WAY IS ON SOMETHING..........I did not say all races won this way either, but the mind boggles if you do go back over other races (any other races), that said, I believe those 'who know what they are lookin at' know it when they see it and that's when it's mentioned. I wasn't gettin it either til I asked someone to explain. You cannot tell me you have not heard the murmurings when someone is under suspicion such as when ie. G Small was being looked at seriously, well it was several years before that, that I first heard the murmurings concerning him (neither did I believe it then, most people in the business in general know) and then he was caught out......

Breno, Im not sure whats up with you mate, but you seem fixated with the 'Performance Enhancing drugs' thing, what is that?, when you should be lookin at whats really being said (I would say read my post again but that would be futile), everybody talks to everyone in harness racing, and if you think that it was a total surprise that G Small, M Purdon and others etc were eventually caught out then your either naive, or very young! you are definitely not understanding my posts, I most certainly am not advocating the use of 'any kind of drug at all far from it' if you neither cannot or do not want to understand what is written that then I cannot help you there sunshine, my posts are clear.

Dazza, will not dignify your post with a reply other than to say grow the F!@#$ up!!!

Further more, to everyone, I am not looking for anyone's support in what I have posted, as what I have posted is a statement, it is an observation made after listening to people involved in all aspects of the sport, who have a consistent habit of proving to be right in their observations, over the past 18yrs. When I heard 'oh that horse is on something' again on Finals night my initial thoughts were somewhat cynical, and yes I too thought it was a case of jealousy, and soreloser-itis etc etc, but when the news hit I thought here we go again...........I was at all of the nights of Interdominion racing, and all though a Kiwi thru and thru (and yes it did sting somewhat gettin trounced on home turf, but we got the trotters ID so it wasn't that bad) and I know when I'm lookin at bloody great horseflesh and I have to tell you if Mr Feelgood did dishes I'd marry him (sorry Monkey), but this KIWI has said all along 'IF IT IS PROVEN........' and all you lot are behaving like it has been already whats with that???!!!!

Cheers Iraklis

[buster]

iraklis - it has been proven, he got a positive swab, the second swab is only done by the connections in the hope that it comes back negative so that they can argue that the testing procedure wasn't correct or something along those lines - under the nz rules of racing he is already guilty and is up to him to appeal the pending conviction or penalty (which in other dmso cases was very very low but all horses were disqualified and the trainers were all cooperative(g small included) and 1 trainer even proved the dmso was a contamination - he still lost the race)

[Mighty Atom]

I see there's been a comment or two stating that there is not a drug in the world that can make a horse go faster than what it is physically capable of..... that's true, but there are drugs which will enable the horse to maintain top speed for a lot longer.

[aussiebreno]

I have had it said to me several times by 'people who know' and I quote ' if any horse takes off at the 600/400 rips round em and takes off, they're on something',

Cheers Iraklis


I have been going to harness races since 1975 got invloved in 1985, but it has only been over the past 18yrs or so that these comments have been made to me, although they have gotten a helluva lot more regular, and they have been suspiciously accurate when made........and just to reiterate, THE COMMENTS WERE NOT MINE BUT THOSE OF PEOPLE AROUND ME (made on several occassions over the years), hell I just like to see em run! I DO NOT however bet, I have been an owner/breeder, I just love the sports side of harness racing.

Expanation: 'to hook out at the 600/400 take off round em and go, and keep on goin' pretty self explanatory, and I say again NOT EVERY HORSE THAT WINS THIS WAY IS ON SOMETHING..........I did not say all races won this way either, but the mind boggles if you do go back over other races (any other races), that said, I believe those 'who know what they are lookin at' know it when they see it and that's when it's mentioned. I wasn't gettin it either til I asked someone to explain. You cannot tell me you have not heard the murmurings when someone is under suspicion such as when ie. G Small was being looked at seriously, well it was several years before that, that I first heard the murmurings concerning him (neither did I believe it then, most people in the business in general know) and then he was caught out......

Breno, Im not sure whats up with you mate, but you seem fixated with the 'Performance Enhancing drugs' thing, what is that?, when you should be lookin at whats really being said (I would say read my post again but that would be futile), everybody talks to everyone in harness racing, and if you think that it was a total surprise that G Small, M Purdon and others etc were eventually caught out then your either naive, or very young! you are definitely not understanding my posts, I most certainly am not advocating the use of 'any kind of drug at all far from it' if you neither cannot or do not want to understand what is written that then I cannot help you there sunshine, my posts are clear.

Dazza, will not dignify your post with a reply other than to say grow the F!@#$ up!!!

Further more, to everyone, I am not looking for anyone's support in what I have posted, as what I have posted is a statement, it is an observation made after listening to people involved in all aspects of the sport, who have a consistent habit of proving to be right in their observations, over the past 18yrs. When I heard 'oh that horse is on something' again on Finals night my initial thoughts were somewhat cynical, and yes I too thought it was a case of jealousy, and soreloser-itis etc etc, but when the news hit I thought here we go again...........I was at all of the nights of Interdominion racing, and all though a Kiwi thru and thru (and yes it did sting somewhat gettin trounced on home turf, but we got the trotters ID so it wasn't that bad) and I know when I'm lookin at bloody great horseflesh and I have to tell you if Mr Feelgood did dishes I'd marry him (sorry Monkey), but this KIWI has said all along 'IF IT IS PROVEN........' and all you lot are behaving like it has been already whats with that???!!!!

Cheers Iraklis

Got to the bolded bit; went back and read you original post and it confirmed what I thought you said. As I said to someone in a private message I am not going to bother replying; you almost hooked me in but once I got to the bolded bit and seen you lying I am not even going to bother reading the rest of your drivel.

[aussiebreno]

I have been going to harness races since 1975 got invloved in 1985, but it has only been over the past 18yrs or so that these comments have been made to me, although they have gotten a helluva lot more regular, and they have been suspiciously accurate when made........and just to reiterate, THE COMMENTS WERE NOT MINE BUT THOSE OF PEOPLE AROUND ME (made on several occassions over the years), hell I just like to see em run! I DO NOT however bet, I have been an owner/breeder, I just love the sports side of harness racing.

Expanation: 'to hook out at the 600/400 take off round em and go, and keep on goin' pretty self explanatory, and I say again NOT EVERY HORSE THAT WINS THIS WAY IS ON SOMETHING..........I did not say all races won this way either, but the mind boggles if you do go back over other races (any other races), that said, I believe those 'who know what they are lookin at' know it when they see it and that's when it's mentioned. I wasn't gettin it either til I asked someone to explain. You cannot tell me you have not heard the murmurings when someone is under suspicion such as when ie. G Small was being looked at seriously, well it was several years before that, that I first heard the murmurings concerning him (neither did I believe it then, most people in the business in general know) and then he was caught out......

Breno, Im not sure whats up with you mate, but you seem fixated with the 'Performance Enhancing drugs' thing, what is that?, when you should be lookin at whats really being said (I would say read my post again but that would be futile), everybody talks to everyone in harness racing, and if you think that it was a total surprise that G Small, M Purdon and others etc were eventually caught out then your either naive, or very young! you are definitely not understanding my posts, I most certainly am not advocating the use of 'any kind of drug at all far from it' if you neither cannot or do not want to understand what is written that then I cannot help you there sunshine, my posts are clear.

Dazza, will not dignify your post with a reply other than to say grow the F!@#$ up!!!

Further more, to everyone, I am not looking for anyone's support in what I have posted, as what I have posted is a statement, it is an observation made after listening to people involved in all aspects of the sport, who have a consistent habit of proving to be right in their observations, over the past 18yrs. When I heard 'oh that horse is on something' again on Finals night my initial thoughts were somewhat cynical, and yes I too thought it was a case of jealousy, and soreloser-itis etc etc, but when the news hit I thought here we go again...........I was at all of the nights of Interdominion racing, and all though a Kiwi thru and thru (and yes it did sting somewhat gettin trounced on home turf, but we got the trotters ID so it wasn't that bad) and I know when I'm lookin at bloody great horseflesh and I have to tell you if Mr Feelgood did dishes I'd marry him (sorry Monkey), but this KIWI has said all along 'IF IT IS PROVEN........' and all you lot are behaving like it has been already whats with that???!!!!

Cheers Iraklis
Ok I lied too (irony number 1); I did get read the rest. Ironic part 2 though is how you think I'm not the one who understands.

Just about any horse who is going to win a couple of races could go bang at the 600 and clear out; these type of wins aren't really suspect. The suspect wins are where horses do a stack of work; not sit then sprint late (which generally occurs when horses take off at the 400/600)

You then use reasoning saying everybody talks etc...if everybody talks wouldn't your buddies know prior to the race..why arent they commenting before the race rather than after?

[aussiebreno]

I see there's been a comment or two stating that there is not a drug in the world that can make a horse go faster than what it is physically capable of..... that's true, but there are drugs which will enable the horse to maintain top speed for a lot longer.
May have been me that said that; but yep agree 100% with what you have said anyway

[Iraklis]

Breno, now your gettin it, the point is THEY DO, (sorry bout the 'bolding bit' I just had to put it in to PYO) the comments have not been only made after, but during, before the start of the racing (whilst just hangin out in the lounge or wherever sometimes up to weeks or months before), at trials, workouts, around the stables (just in general) you name it..............why are you incredulous, these things are widely spoken about furtively, my point is why????.........to stamp out the doping scourge would it not be better to openly speak about it? you really don't mean to tell me you have never been privy to someone ie. speaking about 'so and so dopes his horses' or 'his horses are on something' not exactly word for word but anything along these lines, you heard it and thought nah, then a few weeks, months down the track it all comes to light......and I think you mean 'the bolded bit' as to the letters in bold, yes? that was done in punctuation does that help, the portion of the post I think your referring to I wrote as quoted, not my words but what was said to me at the time, when it was said I didn't think he meant literally every horse, I took it to mean, that if it is out of the ordinary, perhaps I should' ve elaborated that; from what was explained to me it's about a certain style any particular horse races at (just any horse in general) which is not like your classic sit n sprinters etc etc but out of the usual......it is however a rather mute point now

Buster, what a friggin shame, I seriously didn't think it had been proven yet, what a friggin shame, is all I can say........................those Inters race nights were just the best and although we got hammered (onya's aussies) I loved the racing, it was huge it was the best, got to see Blackie (bein cool in his stall), got to see my fav Monkey (what's up with the mighty monk he's not lookin good) PTara and The Doosit (yes he can! flag waver for us Kiwis, got a big soft spot for this fella) Mr Feelgood (the total professional, lookin very business like) mate it was harness heaven..........

Cheers Iraklis

PS. Oiy anyone got any news on Better Cover Lover???

[DAZZA]

"If any horse takes off at the 600/400 rips round em and takes off, they're on something"

Just explain that please?

That comment sums up your mental capacity.

[aussiebreno]

Breno, now your gettin it, the point is THEY DO, (sorry bout the 'bolding bit' I just had to put it in to PYO) the comments have not been only made after, but during, before the start of the racing (whilst just hangin out in the lounge or wherever sometimes up to weeks or months before), at trials, workouts, around the stables (just in general) you name it..............why are you incredulous, these things are widely spoken about furtively, my point is why????.........to stamp out the doping scourge would it not be better to openly speak about it? you really don't mean to tell me you have never been privy to someone ie. speaking about 'so and so dopes his horses' or 'his horses are on something' not exactly word for word but anything along these lines, you heard it and thought nah, then a few weeks, months down the track it all comes to light......and I think you mean 'the bolded bit' as to the letters in bold, yes? that was done in punctuation does that help, the portion of the post I think your referring to I wrote as quoted, not my words but what was said to me at the time, when it was said I didn't think he meant literally every horse, I took it to mean, that if it is out of the ordinary, perhaps I should' ve elaborated that; from what was explained to me it's about a certain style any particular horse races at (just any horse in general) which is not like your classic sit n sprinters etc etc but out of the usual......it is however a rather mute point now

Buster, what a friggin shame, I seriously didn't think it had been proven yet, what a friggin shame, is all I can say........................those Inters race nights were just the best and although we got hammered (onya's aussies) I loved the racing, it was huge it was the best, got to see Blackie (bein cool in his stall), got to see my fav Monkey (what's up with the mighty monk he's not lookin good) PTara and The Doosit (yes he can! flag waver for us Kiwis, got a big soft spot for this fella) Mr Feelgood (the total professional, lookin very business like) mate it was harness heaven..........

Cheers Iraklis

PS. Oiy anyone got any news on Better Cover Lover???

What does the price of butter have to do with anything? Fair dinkum you could have saved yourself some money on RSI medication if you understood what I was saying but instead you try and argue something I haven't got any interest talking to you about but you seem to think I do. How long they had the wide world web in the retirement home anyway gramps? Oh and back in your day did they teach spelling, grammar and the difference between mute and moot point?

The whole thing Mango and I kicked up about was you saying horses who go bang at the 600m and win by a space are all on drugs. Not whether drugs are involved in the sport or not.

[aussiebreno]

"If any horse takes off at the 600/400 rips round em and takes off, they're on something"

Just explain that please?

That comment sums up your mental capacity.

+1

[Iraklis]

Hey Breno...............perhaps you could try going back to kindy, your mental capacity couldn't handle anything else! KEEP TAKING THE LITTLE WHITE PILLS THEY WILL HELP, HONESTLY THEY WILL...... and what about those latest test results sunshine

[aussiebreno]

Hey Breno...............perhaps you could try going back to kindy, your mental capacity couldn't handle anything else! KEEP TAKING THE LITTLE WHITE PILLS THEY WILL HELP, HONESTLY THEY WILL...... and what about those latest test results sunshine
Too funny Iraklis; you must be from the Rove McManus school of comedy. Although in fairness to Rove it only takes him one week to think of his sketches.
Can you explain, in kindergarten terms (heck any terms would be nice just ONE answer to my orignal question), how Smoken Up's positive (a renowned tough grinder) gives light to your point that ANY (yes you said ALL bar nothing in your original post on the matter even though this was used as one of your many deflections) horse who sprints clear after putting on the afterburners at the 400/600 is on LSD or something of the sort? I am beginning to run out of fingers to count how many times I have asked you that or a similar question for no answer.

[triplev123]

[Too funny Iraklis; you must be from the Rove McManus school of comedy. Although in fairness to Rove it only takes him one week to think of his sketches.]

Hahahahahahahaha. Some of your best work Breno. :D:D:D:D:D