Breeding

[mango]

I was checking out some mare's on the Harness Racing New Zealand site and who they were served by this last season. I came across a mare from the Lis Mara family named Lisconnie who is by Western Ideal a beautifully bred mare i would say but what struck me as strange unless it's a miss print is that Lisconnie has been bred to American Ideal who's father is by Western Ideal. To me that is inbred, now as i own a few greyhounds for fun i often look up breeding's on the greyhound site to see what would suit my Brett Lee bitch and i have noticed there have been quiet a few greyhound owner's doing the same thing (inbreeding) i myself wouldn't try it but i was wondering what people thought of the idea of line breeding/inbreeding and there theories and what they most like to achieve when matching a mare to a stallion.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

Charlie Roberts of Woodlands Stud owns & bred her. It's a very interesting move.
To my way of thinking though, the resultant foal of that mating would in fact be line-bred (albeit closely) to Western Ideal, and not inbred.
I think inbreeding in its true sense can only occur when the sire & the dam have the same female on their respective damlines and even then, only when she is found up close in their pedigrees(1-2-3 generations max)......for example, say if Charlie decided to get Lisconnie's dam, Lismurray, bred to Lis Mara. That would be in-bred, IMO.

[Greg Hando]

Inbreeding if it's no good Line breeding if it's ok ha ha

[mango]

Thanks Triple

Very strange to breed like that you have to wonder why and what the reason was if any or is he trying something out of left field, maybe we can get your brother to find out the reason.

[triplev123]

No worries. Charlie's bred more horses than I've had hot dinners. He'd be doing it for a reason, you can guarentee it. On a kind of related note there have been & are a few pretty handy ones going around here in Oz at the moment that are line-bred 3x3 to Cam Fella. It's not something I'd have tried...but it looks like it's working & very well in some cases.

[mango]

Yeah i've seen the 3x3 done a fair bit and i'm considering it myself by sending an Artiscape mare to Rocknroll Heaven which will give me the 3x3 reverse sex cross to Artsplace. But the Western Ideal is a 2x2 cross which seems to be to close it just had me curious as to why he would try something like that.

[Greg Hando]

Wouldn't the foal be 2 x 3 to Western Ideal if

[mango]

Hi Winston

As Lisconnie is by Western Ideal and so is American Ideal that would mean in would 2x2 Western Ideal.

[triplev123]

There was an outstanding US filly Trotter from a fair few years ago by the name of CR Kay Suzie. Carl Allen had her & I think he bred her too? She was pretty nutso but along with it she had wicked high speed.
She was actually bred 2x2 to full siblings...the configuration of her pedigree being such that the dam of her sire (a mare by the name of Mae Jeans Crown) was in fact a full sister to her damsire, Speedy Somolli.
Here's a link to an on-line pedigree for her. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cr+kay+suzie

There have also been a few others that spring to mind that were not quite so successful.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/french+cuisine4.
I remember this colt from years ago, remember him well, he was a great looking horse but what a low bit of work on the track. He would not try an inch. Dave Aiken somehow managed to trick him into winning 1 race at HP in 2:04 and a piece that was it. He was bred 2 x 2 to no less than Meadow Skipper and his full sister, With Applause.
To offer an example of just how blinded by snazzy pedigrees one can become at times and despite the fact that I'd seen the above mentioned horse jink and swerve and duck and deceive at every turn...would you believe that over a 5 year period I went back & had a shot at not 1, not 2 but 3 horses from this maternal family...and they were ALL hopeless. They couldn't beat time with a stick, would not break 2:10 even if you were to drop them down a mine shaft chained to an Anvil. Terrible. I run away from anything that springs out of that dam line these days. Even now, 15-20yrs late, just thinking about it gives me cold shivers. :eek::eek::eek:

[mango]

Hi Triple

Thanks for the insight and that's what i was looking for people to give example's to give me an idea as how successfull it has been and how many time's it has been tried. The reason i brought this topic up is i was told never to go any closer than 3x3 so i was looking to see other's thought's and idea's. When looking at a stallion for a mare i alway's look at race track performance, conformation and i look at how strong the family is, so i'm one that does look at the pedigree of a stallion but that doesn't mean i alway's go that way. More often than not these day's i might like a stallion but i never send the mare there as you have to try and pick a stallion that buyer's want progeny from and then again that doesn't seem to work for me either Lmao.

[Greg Hando]

I came across a mare from the Lis Mara family named Lisconnie who is by Western Ideal a beautifully bred mare i would say but what struck me as strange unless it's a miss print is that Lisconnie has been bred to American Ideal who's father is by Western Ideal.

Mango you say American Ideal is by a son of Western Ideal that would make the foal 3 x 2 or have i read it wrong

[mango]

Hi Winston

Yeah i can understand where i wrote it down wrong, Western Ideal is the father of Lisconnie and American Ideal.

[mightymo]

Hi Triple

Thanks for the insight and that's what i was looking for people to give example's to give me an idea as how successfull it has been and how many time's it has been tried. The reason i brought this topic up is i was told never to go any closer than 3x3 so i was looking to see other's thought's and idea's. When looking at a stallion for a mare i alway's look at race track performance, conformation and i look at how strong the family is, so i'm one that does look at the pedigree of a stallion but that doesn't mean i alway's go that way. More often than not these day's i might like a stallion but i never send the mare there as you have to try and pick a stallion that buyer's want progeny from and then again that doesn't seem to work for me either Lmao.

From a breeding to sell point of view, I would not go closer than 3x3, although for an experiment i might consider a 2x3.

There was a very nice horse, Duneside Perch in the US a couple of years ago which was bred 2x3 to Cam Fella I believe

[triplev123]

Hi Triple

Thanks for the insight and that's what i was looking for people to give example's to give me an idea as how successfull it has been and how many time's it has been tried. The reason i brought this topic up is i was told never to go any closer than 3x3 so i was looking to see other's thought's and idea's. When looking at a stallion for a mare i alway's look at race track performance, conformation and i look at how strong the family is, so i'm one that does look at the pedigree of a stallion but that doesn't mean i alway's go that way. More often than not these day's i might like a stallion but i never send the mare there as you have to try and pick a stallion that buyer's want progeny from and then again that doesn't seem to work for me either Lmao.

G'day Mango,

In terms of it being successful or not...from what I've observed it is very in and out, there is no noticeable pattern to what will be successful and what will not.
Over the years there have been particular examples of what I'd term as really close line-breeding & moreso of inbreeding in mares that didn't go on to do a whole lot on the track but then became good & sometimes outstanding producers.
The best, most extensive and to my knowledge most recent examples of multiple returns to a particular maternal family occurred with Kentuckiana a few years back now when they offered a swag of yearlings in Lexington that had multiple maternal crosses via sire & dam to Golden Miss....something along the lines of Tell All...in fact I think he may well have resulted from that same batch and if not then certainly from that same general ethos. Kentuckiana did quite a bit of it with Real Desire & Grinfromeartoear returned to their own maternal lines, in some instances there were 3 and 1 had 4 crosses within 5 or 6 generations. I'm pretty sure Brittany did something similar with the family K Nora, breeding Western Ideal over his own maternal line to produce the likes of American Ideal & so on and I'm pretty sure there were a few that had Western Ideal over a Life Sign mare that had been produced as a result of Life Sign being bred over that same maternal line...effectively giving 3 crosses to K Nora.
Given the number of times it was tried and that it was tried with different representatives of the damline on both the sire's and the dam's sides...I kind of wonder how much water it really holds...especially so given that, in the case of Golden Miss, she was just such an outstanding taproot mare. I don't think it can hurt but I don't think it's any magic bullet, certainly not a reliable one anyway. The Lexington sale that I'm thinking of...there must have been 30 or 40 yearlings offered that year showing variations on that same theme. To my knowledge Tell All was the only big splasher to result.

[mango]

Hey Triple

I see a lot of people who own Panorama mare's are sending them to Grinfromeartoear to get the double up of Blue Horizon and a couple of crosses to Breath O Spring not sure how good it's worked so far. I've been told about Golden Miss and if your mare has her in her pedigree to try and match it with a stallion in his but how far would that go back a fair way i'd say. I had a Tesio done on one of my mare's out of curiousity and my mare's 6th dam was a mare called The Old Maid so they done the match and it wasn't to bad of a stallion but i didn't go that way, it was more out of curiousity than anything.

Hi Mightymo

If you come across Duneside Perch's breeding can you let me no and thanks for your input.

[triplev123]

G'day Mango,

Duneside Perch was by Cam's Card Shark from Duck Duck Goose by Goalie Jeff.

[triplev123]

We've got a filly that's (not intentionally) bred family over family, tracing to Miss Pluto Scott, the dam of Golden Miss, on both the sire's damline and the dam's damline. I think Miss Pluto Scott appears as the 5th & 6th or 6th & 7th dam respectively. She's a cracking type, good sized, powerful, athletic & so light on her feet and I'd be lying if I said I didn't expect big things of her in the future...but I would be very reticent to assign anything that she does in the future to her pedigree alone. I just think 6 or 7 generations is too far back for any mare to have any kind of overt influence.

[mango]

Hi Triple

Thanks for the info (Duneside Perch) yeah i don't look that far back either and the reason for me starting this thread was to see other people's idea's what's worked what hasn't and what they like to see in a pedigree or don't like to see but it seem's there's not to many willing to give there thought's on this one which is a pitty.

[Greg Hando]

Hi Winston

Yeah i can understand where i wrote it down wrong, Western Ideal is the father of Lisconnie and American Ideal.
No worries i just thought i was going mad

[triplev123]

Trust your gut instinct Mango. Bugger what anyone else thinks. Zig when others Zag.

[mango]

Hi Triple
There's an interesting yearling for sale in the trotguide today it's by Artsplace out of an Artiscape mare which is a very close match.

Hi Love of courage
Just so you no i'm not saying anything bad about the cross it just interests me as why some one would breed so close and what there trying to achieve. I like the breeding side of thing's and i'm learning all the time and that's why i started this post to get people's thought's and idea's on breeding and how close they would go when matching a mare with a stallion and what they like to see in a pedigree.

[triplev123]

Interesting. 1x3 Artsplace if I have it right. Unusual. Type wise though, if they suit each other, good for them.

[mango]

Hey Triple

I thought that would be 1x2 to Artsplace, as his sire is Artsplace and his grand sire is as well.

[triplev123]

Nah, you could only get that (1x2) if you put Artsplace over one of his own daughters.
Not that I've seen it with him... but I have seen exactly that done in years gone by. There's a very good family that Edgar Tatlow had that features a mare bred just that way in its removes. I know a bloke who bred or tried to breed a Dream Away mare to Modern Art. (obviously closely linebred to Artsplace)

[mango]

Yeah Triple your right it is a 1x3 my mistake.

[Greg Hando]

Idont mind seeing a 2 x 3 up close on the maternal sides only of both sides sire and dam

[Love Of Courage]

Hello Hello,

Well spotted Mango !

I could say that my Artsplace colt was the result of some in depth pedigree research based upon the outstanding sucess of the Artsplace progeny, and that my goal was to produce a extremely close relation to the great stallion Artsplace.

Or I could simply say that after 3 failed attempts in N.Z. to get one mare in foal to Rock N Roll Hanover and 2 failed attempts with this colts dam to Rock N Roll Hanover I was given the option of trying with Artsplace. I had wanted an Artsplace foal, however with no semen available to me in Australia I was advised that I could get semen for my mares in N.Z instead.

It was only after a positive test I realised the "mistake", that the dam was by Artiscape a son of Artsplace.

So far so good, a nice healthy colt with only 1 head and four legs. I am tempted to play him the duelling banjos from the movie Deliverance to see if he has too much hillbilly blood in him. After reading up about inbreeding, it could go either way with him receiving the good or bad genes. So far so good as he is progressing nicely, and looking at him physically and having him thoroughly vetted, everthings good. I have his half sister in training and she is a 2 year old by Courage Under Fire. Her dam is a 3/4 sister to the dam of Courage so a little common blood there. A doubling up of blood from the great racemare Robin Dundee. Now how could that not be a good thing to have in the pedigree.

She is a beautiful filly, very sensible and healthy with a great appetite like her dad. She looks incredibly much like Courage and I am hoping that she has some of his ability. If any of you are interested in a share in the lease of my 3 fillys trained by Darren McCall please feel free to contact me. A generous lease with no ingoings, and hopefully lots of fun.

Regards,

Sue

[Love Of Courage]

Hello Hello,

This is the Artsplace colt in question. This picture was taken at Twisted Stick Lodge in Christchurch New Zealand in December last year.

He is now here with me in Brisbane and was named in N.Z. as " In Like Finn"

Regards,

Sue

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[Love Of Courage]

Hello Hello,

This is my Courage 2 year old filly. Once again this filly has double up of common genes, but once again a healthy filly. The picture was taken in January of this year. This is one of the fillies for lease if anyone is interested in joining me, in training with Darren McCall.


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Regards,

Sue

[mango]

Hi Sue

Thanks for your reply, i find the breeding side of thing's interesting and thats why i started this post to hear of people's idea's and thoughts. Now i hope you don't think i'm bagging your Artsplace colt it's just that i find the cross interesting that's all. I do like your cross with the same mare to Courage Under Fire, Mightymo/Triple have pointed out that there have been some horses that have been inbred and have turned out to be good horses so hopefully yours will aswell. Question for you if you had your time over again do you think if you realised how close the cross was would of you tried it and also do you think it had a negative effect on you selling the colt.

[triplev123]

In the interests of a full & frank disclosure ;););)...for the 2011/12 season I've been giving some serious thought to breeding a Shark Gesture filly to Four Starzzz Shark.
It would produce a 2x3 cross to Cam's Card Shark which is a little bit unusual on paper but given the specs of the individuals I think it is a big chance to work. Where racehorses are concerned I don't think there is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

[mightymo]

A few breeding ideas I would have no hesitation in doing, is to breed a Life Sign mare to American Ideal and to breed an Albert Albert mare to Lis Mara

I also like this mating for a mare of mine, but she is on the small side so it would not work unfortunately.

http://tesiopower.com/pep/seepedigree.aspx?hID=50101181

[Nemera]

[QUOTE=mango;5782]
I see a lot of people who own Panorama mare's are sending them to Grinfromeartoear to get the double up of Blue Horizon and a couple of crosses to Breath O Spring not sure how good it's worked so far.

Well it seemed to work pretty well with Smiling Shard. It would be interesting to know how many of racing age from that cross are floating around.

[mango]

A few breeding ideas I would have no hesitation in doing, is to breed a Life Sign mare to American Ideal and to breed an Albert Albert mare to Lis Mara

I also like this mating for a mare of mine, but she is on the small side so it would not work unfortunately.

http://tesiopower.com/pep/seepedigree.aspx?hID=50101181

Hi Mightymo

I would try either of those breedings as it brings Lismore/Three Diamonds into the pedigree twice.

[Love Of Courage]

Hi Sue

Thanks for your reply, i find the breeding side of thing's interesting and thats why i started this post to hear of people's idea's and thoughts. Now i hope you don't think i'm bagging your Artsplace colt it's just that i find the cross interesting that's all. I do like your cross with the same mare to Courage Under Fire, Mightymo/Triple have pointed out that there have been some horses that have been inbred and have turned out to be good horses so hopefully yours will aswell. Question for you if you had your time over again do you think if you realised how close the cross was would of you tried it and also do you think it had a negative effect on you selling the colt.

Hello Mango,

Don't be concerned for one minute with your comments as I think that the point that you raise is very valid. I am not the slighest bit offended, when i became aware of my " Mistake" I was somewhat taken aback myself !


If given the chance again I think that I would have had a 3rd attempt with Rock N Roll Hanover due to the close breeding. After speaking with several Auctioneers in Australia & New Zealand they commented that this close breeding may deter a few buyers.

I would have preferred to have kept this colt and entered him in a Ready To Run Sale as I think if he looked the goods the breeding would become less of an issue. I have watched several interviews with Gai Waterhouse regarding selling tried NZ horses to her clients. Gai comments that the first thing that is asked is what is the breeding her reply is always the same "Cup of tea out of saucer.' as she believes that the animal does not know about its breeding so why should she. Gai is more concerned about the horses athletic ability rather than breeding. However this is in regards to "Tried" horses.

Line Breeding / Inbreeding is used quite often to get certain desired genetic features, however the key is to weed out the unsuccessful breeding attempts where a bad gene has come from both parents. I guess as the colt is fit and healthy so far so good.

As far as his genetic makeup is concerened Artiscape has 50 % Artsplace genes. Erin Finn has 25 % Artsplace genes. So this yearling colt would have 50% Artsplace genes from the sire and 12.5 % from the dam. So for an Artsplace foal with 50 % he has perhaps 62.5 % which does not seem too bad.

I wonder how many people would be interested in a horse that had a hypothetical 90%or 80% 70% or 60% Blacks A Fake genetic makeup.

I would be interersted in the comments from those that are a good judge of a horses looks to see if people do think he looks anything like his sire. I guess it may be hard from the picture, however I read on one of these forums that Sportswriter is very similar to his sire Artsplace.

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[mango]

Hi Love Of Courage

That might be a good idea putting him through the Ready To Run sale cause people don't tend to worry about pedigree they just worry about type and if they can run.

[triplev123]

The Breed's full of great horses produced by chance, accidental, last minute and happen-stance matings Sue.
Hal Dale missed out on being gelded because the Vet knocked up. He went on to sire Adios, Good Time & Dale Frost. In turn Dale Frost only got to jump Countess Vivian because Adios got a case of Founder. No Vet pulling the pin and no Founder, no Meadow Skipper.

[Love Of Courage]

Hello Triplev123,

Interesting post as always Triplev123, I should stick with my first explanation rather than the second. If the colt turns out to be pretty good the first story makes me look clever, the second makes me look like a lucky "Dill".

[triplev123]

Nah, not at all Sue. Murray Brown at Hanover, a man who has probably seen more good horses bred than I've had heart beats on this earth and I'm sure knows more about the Standardbred breed than most people on this earth, has said on a number of occasions words to the effect that "I'd rather be lucky than smart". In keeping with that I know a fella who bred a terrific horse by way of him putting the wrong semen into one of his mares.
He had two mares on the go on the same day so he called for doses from two different horses standing at different farms and then he just mixed up the services. It can happen to anyone & especially so if you're tired. He realised what he'd done straight away but after he'd done it and of course it was too late. He'd been up for...it must have been 40 odd of the previous 48hrs with a foal that needed round the clock care (Rhesus) and he was on auto-pilot, lucky to stand and keep his eyes open. Of course one mare went in foal and one didn't. The mare that held on never gave him so much as a moment of concern and duly produced a screamer. No Rhesus foal, no screamer.

[Greg Hando]

Although not the same but,
Don't worry Love Of Courage Granddad had a mare to be served to a stallion when it came time to serve the Stallion had 4 other mares to serve that day so he said put the other horse over her the resulting foal James Scott another time a stallion was being put on the truck to go back to his owner's Jean Wirra had missed twice to Silent Silver she was horsing when the stallion was put on the truck we got the horse off ,served the mare the foal none other than Scotirra sometimes these thing's work out for the best sometimes better than a planned mating and good luck with him hope he does well for you