Silly question...sorry

[Toohard]

Sorry silly question(s). Am new to Harnesslink so please excuse my ignorance. Have asked around and not got any 'satisfactory' answers. Understand no rules to it but would appreciate your comments/answers.

1. When they say your mare is a "XX" line mare, to which line are they referring? Can draw many lines through the pedigree, but which one is the the 'line'?

2. Age. If I look at Christian Cullens pedigree (for example) I see Tar Heel back as one of his 'great grandfathers'. From what I can see he was 25 years old when he served 'In the Pockets' grand mother (Miss Skipper). Due to age, is he excluded from any 'pedigree matching'?

Sorry again to ask silly questions.

[mango]

Hi Toohard

It's not a silly question if you don't know the only way to find out is ask. Now i'm still learning myself but as far as i understand age doesn't exclude them from pedigree matching but some people when trying to match stallions with mare's don't look back past 4-5 generations. Now i'm not sure what you mean by "xx" line mare but if you mean say 3x3 cross that would be say a filly by Art Major infoal to Rocknroll Heaven and that would give you a 3m, 3f to Artsplace. I hope this helps.

[Toohard]

Thanks very much for your response mango

Should have made my question clearer. Was doing some reading and read "This stallion would be suited to Abercrombie line mares". I have a mare by Perfect Art out of a Caesar Blue Chip mare.

Perfect Art is by Artsplace who is by Abercrombie. Caesar Blue Chip is by Most Happy Fella.

Does this make my mare an Abercrombie line mare or a Most Happy Fella line mare? Or both? Or neither i.e. should I be looking at the 'female' side of her pedigree to work out what line mare she is?

Cheers and thanks again

[mango]

Hi Toohard

As I said before i'm still learning but i'd say she would be an Abercrombie line mare, what's the stallion your thinking about using.

[Flashing Red]

I never look at just the one line (ie just the sire; I look at the sire and the dam) but - and I'm happy to be corrected - I *think* what they are referring to is the stallion side of the mare, hence I would also agree with Mango and by the person's description I'd say she's and Abercrombie lined mare :)

[triplev123]

I'd go with an Artsplace line...same thing as mares by Grinfromeartoear, Art Major etc.

[Toohard]

Thanks again for your help. Muchly appreciatted.

Mango... was looking at Jeremes Jet. Would make 5x4 Most Happy Fella (male\female) and 4x4 Abercrombie (female\male). Currently in foal to Bettors Delight. Hope she still is! Was last year too but it disappeared somewhere along the line. Looks like she still is this time (fingers crossed). Getting 'bitchy' too so good sign based on previous experience. That would make foal 4x4 Most Happy Fella (male\female) and 4x4 Abercrombie (female\male). Trying variations of 'same theme'. Her first foal was 4x4 Abercrombie and he goes OK. If we get a nice foal this time and can get around the wife re funds then go back to Bettors again I think. Else have to look for cheaper alternative (hence my questions). Had flood damage (not the house luckily) last year that still trying to clean up/repair and with that and the kids the funds get sucked up pretty quick!

Triplev123.. you say Artsplace line because he is the mares grandfather? That's as far as you go back to determine the 'line' ?

Again, thank you all very much for your help and time.

Cheers

[mango]

Hi Toohard

I hope you get the funds so you can send your mare where you want. Why don't you look at sending your mare to a stallion who's dam is by Artsplace. Go to Peppertree Farm website click on breeder's world scroll down and then click on Tesio Pedigree Matching type in your mare's name and then click on stallion's and click on Rocknroll Heaven as his dam is by Artsplace and he could be an option as he is around $4k cheaper than Bettor's.

[triplev123]

[QUOTE=Toohard;6071] Triplev123.. you say Artsplace line because he is the mares grandfather? That's as far as you go back to determine the 'line' ?

G'day Toohard,

Though one may well exist I've never heard of nor read an explicit explanation so for mine it's always been largely a kind of an arbitrary thing...as in wherever you may wish to draw a line in the sand for want of a better way of putting it.
I'd say Artsplace line in this particular instance because Artsplace is a sire of sires...as in it is precisely at the point of Artsplace where the Abercrombie sireline (him being Artsplace's sire) branches off to the various now successful siring sons of Artsplace himself... such as Perfect Art, Modern Art, Grinfromeartoear, Art Major etc.
You could say the same thing of the Cam Fella line. It is right at the point of his best son, Cam's Card Shark, where the line branches off to Bettor's Delight, Four Starzzz Shark etc and for the sake of the exercise I'd duly refer to them both as being Cam's Card Shark line sires. At that same point, another one of Cam Fella's sons in Camluck sees another line branch off to Northern Luck & so on. I'd refer to Northern Luck etc. as being Camluck line sires and interestingly...right there, that branch has basically died.
Again, the same basic things could be said of the No Nukes line. From him it branches off down two main lines...that of Jate Lobell & in turn his sons Village Jasper, Safely Kept etc and there it has come to a screaching halt while another more successful line from No Nukes, one which goes much further down the line and through Western Hanover and then to his son Western Ideal and in turn his son Rocknroll Hanover and onwards to Rock N Roll Heaven appears set to be with us for a long time to come.
Somewhat differently to the others I would for the monent anyway still refer to Rock N Roll Heaven as a Western Ideal line sire... because Rocknroll Hanover is obviously yet to leave a successful siring son while Western Ideal most certainly has. Hopefully that all makes a bit of sense to you.

[mango]

Hey Triple

Great post not only have you helped Toohard out but you have also helped me understand the line's more.

CHEERS

MANGO

[triplev123]

You're more than welcome.
Remember though, that's just the way that I see them & as I said I really don't know if it's the generally accepted view.
Similarly I've seen slightly ranging to vastly different methods being employed to interpret & then express various pedigree 'assessments' for want of a better word...some people might say that a horse is bred 3x4x5x3 to Meadow Skipper for example...while in some cases others throw in what I assume??? are the sex deliniations of the actual crosses...as in the same basic thing but written 3fx4mx5mx3m or whatever the case may be, so there are no hard and fast rules IMO.
On a related note, I've long reckoned that the smoke and mirrors routine surrounding the whole thing needs to be exposed for what it is and duly debunked so I sincerely hope this helps Toohard & yourself & others. The so-called Pedigree/Breeding Consultants of this world tick me off big-time because they get their money under false pretences IMO. With some time, homework, diligent observation and practice anyone can work it out and don't let anyone tell you any different...that for a fee, they'll reveal to you...like some equine reproduction version of a rabbit out of a hat... that which you could so easily discover for yourself...for nothing other than the cost of your time.
My advice is to trust your gut and forget about the hocus pocus. We're breeding flesh & blood here, not printouts with lots of highlights on them or otherwise nicely coloured up screens on our PC's.
In keeping with the above, the best piece of advice on breeding matters I've ever received came from John Bagshaw. He said he had probably tried out every breeding theory there was at one time or another...but after all that he experienced by far his greatest levels of success by forgetting about this cross or that cross and instead simply breeding for type.

[eliteblood]

Thanks again for your help. Muchly appreciatted.

Mango... was looking at Jeremes Jet.
Cheers

Hi Toohard,

Are you breeding with the intention of selling or keeping the foal?
If breeding to sell, Jereme's Jet might be a high risk play IMO. By the time you sell the yearling he will have had a few crops at the races and they may be sought after OR they may be totally unwanted.
The safest way is to either breed to the new stallions that have plenty of hype (such as SBSW, RNR Hanover, RNR Heaven) or breed to the already proven and popular stallions (such as Bettors Delight, Art Major, Mach Three, etc., etc.) depending in both instances on how much you want to spend and what level of service fee the mare warrants.

I wouldn't breed her to an Abercrombie sireline stallion but she can go to pretty much anything else that takes your fancy. As suggested earlier, a stallion who is out of an Artsplace mare would be a nice double up.

[breakthebank]

I suggest you download Norman Hall's book QUEEN AMONG QUEENS from www.pedigreematching.com. A very interesting read on the origin of the standardbred and how to read the pedigrees - very understandable and you don't need a pHD to decipher it. Contains most of the things you are asking about.

[Nemera]

In keeping with the above, the best piece of advice on breeding matters I've ever received came from John Bagshaw. He said he had probably tried out every breeding theory there was at one time or another...but after all that he experienced by far his greatest levels of success by forgetting about this cross or that cross and instead simply breeding for type.
Breeding for type is how some of these crosses became discovered in the first place. Some stallions really stamp their progeny with a physical type (Good or bad) which tends to help make a particular cross work or not work. But totally agree that type is to often forgotten in the emphasis on pedigree. And my pet peeve is pedigree consultants that market stallions as well. Their bias is usually only to evident.
My current favourite cross if I could afford it would be Christian Cullen over Live Or Die mares. As I see it crossing speed over heart and so far has produced the likes of Lizzie Maguie, Gotta Go Cullect, Gotta Go Harmony, Chancellor Cullen, Ohoka Texas & Matt Maguire. Unfortunately it's well out of my price range.

[Toohard]

Gday all

Thank you all very much for your help and advice. Realise not an 'exact science'. For every theory I've read so far giving examples of champions bred that way I can 100s of others bred exactly same way that weren't. Guess if was that easy everyone would be doing it! "eliteblood" am breeding to keep and (hopefully) race.

Thank you all again for your time
Cheers

[mango]

Pick the stallions you like put there name's in a hat and pick one out cause i'm sure sometime's it's like a lucky dip.

[Toohard]

Gday again

In my searching and reading came across something 'useful' (well interesting anyway) that you probably know about already but thought would add here in case someone didn't.

Go to www.peppertreefarm.org (http://www.peppertreefarm.org). Click on the "Breeders World" button and then "Classic families". Enter your mares name and away you go...

All free for the time being. Cheers

[mango]

Hi Toohard

Did you do a tesio on your mare so you could understand what the 3x3 and so on means.

[Toohard]

Gday Mango

Yes did that on the peppertree site which is how I stumbled across the other thing.

Cheers

[mango]

Hi Toohard

Yeah i should of told you about that when i suggested you go to the Peppertree website to do a Tesio. It help's understand a few thing's on breeding and it's great that at the present time it is free (bonus).

[justdoit]

http://www.pedigreematching.com/globe1.html

The Classic Families website has some catching up to do.

Belated Happy Easter guys.

[mango]

Hi Justdoit

Glad your back it must of been a good holiday (joking) you are correct about needing some catching up as i put through a few mare's name's and got nothing.

[triplev123]

A few months back I had an absolute 10 minutes or so long shocker with one of those stud website Tesio mating things. I kept trying to breed their stallion to my e-mail address... and even had the hide to complain loudly when the message came up that the name was not on file. :(:(:(:(

[mango]

Triple you should of kept that one to yourself Lmao.

[Nemera]

Gday again

In my searching and reading came across something 'useful' (well interesting anyway) that you probably know about already but thought would add here in case someone didn't.

Go to www.peppertreefarm.org (http://www.peppertreefarm.org). Click on the "Breeders World" button and then "Classic families". Enter your mares name and away you go...

All free for the time being. Cheers

Good thing it's free as would want a whole lot more info on it before willing to pay. Okay so my mares are nz ones but 1 has progeny racing in australia and come up with nothing with her or her dam. The other I found out who the tail female was, but could get that from any sales catalog

[breakthebank]

Good thing it's free as would want a whole lot more info on it before willing to pay. Okay so my mares are nz ones but 1 has progeny racing in australia and come up with nothing with her or her dam. The other I found out who the tail female was, but could get that from any sales catalog

Classic Families is what it says ! It does not include every horse - only the top performers etc. Provides a snapshot of the families performance. It is updated regularly as I saw the Jewels winners up there the next day.
Pedigreematching database is worldwide but beware, the latest update has a lot of mistakes, especially in the NZ/Aus horses and to be accurate you need to cross-reference with HRNZ or Aus websites.

[triplev123]

At one time or another I reckon I've investigated and used virtually all avenues of research and associated sources of information/data available and there's no doubt in my mind that Classic Families is THE single most remarkable resource there is available to Standardbred Breeders.

[justdoit]

Hi Triplev123, you said not to publish this private post you recieved, so i am only showing bits and pieces.


Dear TripleV123,
Since I have found you, I have found a new life. The decision to
commit to share that life with you is one I make happily and with full
confidence in our love.

Secure in the knowledge that you will be
my constant friend,
my faithful partner in life,

always be open and honest with you,
and cherish you for as long as we both shall live.

for ever yours

Breaky

[triplev123]

I think you might have me confused with Emilio there Justdoit. Those are in fact the words that he spoke to Lizzie the night that Excell Stride won the NSW Derby.;););););)

[justdoit]

hahaha
living dangerously,
Mango, I was travelling a little got to see the Kentucky Derby, purchased a hat to help with my hangover, visited to Kentuckey horse park got another hat and t-shirt Nicaragua make awesome hats and t-shirts.

[mango]

Hi Justdoit

It sounds like you had a well deserved break and the hangover's you can have i'm glad i give up.

[triplev123]

If you want to give up the tipple over night, stone cold...have a baby. Nothing stops the practice of extensive and vigourous after dinner quaffing in its tracks faster than does a screaming baby at 3am.

[mango]

Didn't need a baby to give up if anything that would make me take it up again.

[Toohard]

Gday again,

Have another question(s). Whilst using Tesio via some of the studs to see what the breeding of a potential foal would be I noticed that sometimes a mare in pedigree more than once is highlighted (in red when you print it). Thought I worked out its if the mares
been served by 2 or more different stallions and the resultant offspring are both in the pedigree. But not always the case.

For example I have a mare by Perfect Art. He is by Artsplace out of Perfect Profile. If I use Tesio and select Western Edition (who is by Western Hanover out of Perfect Profile) then Perfect Profile is highlighted in Red.

If I select Rock N Roll Heaven the resultant foal would be 3x3 Artsplace. But the dam of Artsplace is not highlighted in Red?

If I select Art Major (full brother to Perfect Art) then again Perfect Profile is highlighted in Red (which knocks my first theory on the head).

Just wondering what the Red highlighting means? And whats the significance of it? Is it something to do with Rasmussens Theory?

Cheers

[mango]

It just highlights red/pink when you are doubling up on a mare that is on both side's of the pedigree Go to woodlands stud website and type in a mare by Life Sign and match it to American Ideal and the same thing happens as you are doubling up on Three Diamonds.

[Toohard]

Thank you mango

So how come when I select Rock N Roll Heaven (the resultant foal would be 3x3 Artsplace), Artsplaces dam (Miss Elvira) is not highlighted in Red? Miss Elvira on both sides pedigree but not highlighted?

Thank you again

Cheers

[mango]

Hi Toohard

I'll take a guess and i could be wrong, Artsplace is the doubled up so Miss Elvira won't be as she is the dam of him which has been highlighted. Mare's will be highlighted when they come into a pedigree through 2 different son's or more or 2 different daughter's or one of each or more and not the same son twice and when it is the same son twice as with the pedigree you are talking about the sire will be highlighted.. For example that's why i suggested to look at a Life sign mare sent to American Ideal, Life Sign who is by Abercrombie and is out of Three Diamonds and American Ideal who's dam Lifetime Success By Matt's Scooter is out of Three Diamonds. Hey Toohard now i'm confusing myself hopefully someone will clear this up in a post otherwise i'll try and find out more for you today.

[Toohard]

Gday mango

You are right from my further 'research'. Got thrown when put in full brother Perfect Art (Art Major) and mare (Perfect Profile) still came highlighted in red but from my 'experimenting' found it don't care about full brother, etc. Just so long as 2+ different sons\daughters then highlights mare in red. Now (YET ANOTHER) question... is the highlighting in red a 'bad thing'? i.e. is it saying "don't do this". Or is is just highlighting its there (like it does in blue with the stallions). Forgetting what Tesio says... is it an obviously bad thing to do?

Thank you again for your help and time mango. Very muchly appreciated. I owe you a beer or 7 at least!! Maybe catch up when this foal am doing all the research into wins Breeders Crown in couple of years!

Cheers

[mango]

Hi Toohard

I remember reading a post a while ago where Mightymo said he would have know problems with sending a Life Sign mare to American Ideal or an Albert Albert mare to Lis Mara which would give you a double up cross to Lismore and i also like the doubling up of good mare's in a pedigree if you can get them. I was in n.z early april and went out to Bromac Lodge and whilst there this topic come up and Bob said he had actually sent a Life Sign mare to American Ideal for the double up of Three Diamonds. So double up the mare's but i wouldn't have them any closer than 3x3 but thats just my preference.

[Zipper]

Toohard,

Not that you've asked this question but in my opinion the important factor in breeding is in fact out-cross blood. Out-cross blood is basically the mating of two un-related horses, in my opinion any horse without a genetic cross in the first 5 generations, it can be considered to have out-cross blood. This is generally more favoured in thoroughbred racing in my experience however I think there is plenty to be gained by applying the same principles in standardbreds. I think the attraction with line breeding (crosses closer up in the family e.g. 4x3, 3x3 etc) is to try and replicate common or distinctive traits. However 'outcrossing' inputs new blood into the gene pool thus increasing the variance of genes in the pool.

Why do I like this? the probability of getting a good horse is extremely small, by increasing the variants in the gene pool I believe it can only increase the chance of getting a good horse. Remember breeding horses is somewhat like playing lotto.....

The other critical factor in breeding which is even more important is the mare's family. I don't care what anyone says, I am convinced that good mares make good stallions and 90% of breeding influence comes from the dams side.

I try to take a simple approach to breeding or buying horses.

You want a mare with outcross blood from a proven producing family that has won in a sub 2min mile rate, mated with a stallion from outcross blood himself. The only other piece in the puzzle is ensuring if your mare has any physical traits that may be inhibiting (size, conformation etc), that you select a stallion who is proven at not producing horses with similar traits (i.e. don't send a small mare to horse renowned for producing smaller types)

Other than that set a budget and stick to it. Hope this little rant was of some value.

[mango]

Hi Zipper

I actually outcrossed when sending a mare to Falcon Seelster not so long ago, i was told for it to be a genetic outcross there had to be know genetic crosses in the first 4 generation's but i could of been told wrong. I do understand what you are saying about linebreeding but i aslo think there is merit in it to a certain extent, if i try and line breed i like it to be a reverse sex cross where it come's through a stallion on one side but on the other side i like it to come through a strong producing mare who is by that same stallion. Prime example would be Toohard's Perfect Art mare matched with Rocknroll Heaven as Perfect Art is by Artsplace and Rocknroll Heaven's dam is by Artsplace and one would think doubling up on this cross of the great Artsplace could be a good thing. This is only my opinion and something i will be trying myself.

[triplev123]

The important thing to keep in mind here is that, depending wholly and solely upon the bloodlines of a mare, any given sire can respresent either an outcross or further linebreeding. That Breeding Consultants and so on label various sires as being exclsuively either one or the other is, IMO, completely misleading.

[Zipper]

Triple... please elaborate further, I'm not sure I fully understand your point?

[Zipper]

Mango,

Help me understand why doubling up on Artsplace is a good thing?

[triplev123]

G'day Zipper,

I've had a couple of shots at explaining it & citing some examples but was not happy with how it read so I deleted each of them. Will take another shot tomorrow off a good night's sleep and with a clear head.

[mango]

Hi Zipper

As i said it's only my opinion, the way i look at it Artsplace was a super racehorse and is a sire of sire's and a great broodmare sire so why not try and combine the 2. The thing i like about doing a 3x3 Artsplace with Toohard's mare is Perfect Art done a good job here in Aus and his full brother is doing a super job so i believe it is a strong family and if you were to go to RNR Heaven you are sending your mare to a great racehorse who's dam is by Artsplace and was a strong race mare herself pacing 1:50.2 and winning $630k she has had 2 old enough to race with 2 in 1:49.3 or better. Her full brother is also by Artsplace and won over $1.3 mil. So to me they look like 2 strong families with Artsplace influence both through a sire side and the other through the dam's side. As i said this is only my opinion and breeding can be like buying a lotto ticket and waiting for your number's to come out which might never happen. Only time will tell and just for interest sake i'm strongly considering doing the 3x3 Artsplace cross with one of my mare's and with the other mare a 3x4 cross with Direct Scooter Mach 3 mare to Rocknroll Hanover if he come's out. So if i'm wrong in doing this you could say i'll be wrong in a big way.

[triplev123]

G'day Zipper,

I've had a couple of shots at explaining it & citing some examples but was not happy with how it read so I deleted each of them. Will take another shot tomorrow off a good night's sleep and with a clear head.

G'day again Zipper,

Try this on for size. Hope it makes sense.

Let's say you have an In The Pocket mare from a Falcon Seelster mare from a Lordship mare and you breed her to Bettor's Delight.
Despite the fact that BD is heavily linebred to Hal Dale he is effectively an Outcross to the majority of the pedigree influences in that particular mare.

On the other hand, let's say you have a Safely Kept mare from Soky's Atom mare from a Smooth Fella mare and you breed her to Bettor's Delight. In that particular instance BD represents further Line Breeding.

Or take Somebeachsomewhere.

His pedigree is such that in North America he represents an outcross to the vast majority of the bloodlines present in their commercial broodmare population...save mares by Matt's Scooter.

Down here he can be an outcross for much the same reasons as the above...or he can represent further linebreeding to Direct Scooter via the numerous daughters of In The Pocket, Christian Cullen, Courage Under Fire, Ok Bye, Stoneridge Scooter etc.

For a couple of good Sthn Hemisphere produced examples of Outcross pedigrees check out those of Four Starzzz Flash and Franco Nester.

For a couple of good examples of Sthn Hemisphere produced Linebred pedigrees check out those of Blacks A Fake and Ima Spicey Lombo.

[Zipper]

Mango,

Firstly, I don't think there is anything wrong with what you are saying and in fact that is one of the challenges with breeding most things are neither wrong or right!!

Your logic makes sense and I am not here to critique it. I am purely interested in understanding different points of view.

Thanks for sharing.

[Zipper]

Triple,

I interpret your post as:

Any Stallion can represent both out-cross and line breeding opportunities, it just depends on the mare?

[mango]

Hey Zipper

Your right thing's are neither right or wrong in the breeding game which make's it interesting and very hard at the same time. One thing i do find hard is selecting stallion's for mare's who's progeny you want to put through the sale ring in the hope of some return. Do you go to a tried and proven stallion or do you go to the you beaut one who is comming out for the 1st time. If you go to the proven one at least he has the runs on the board and then again some trainers could of gone of him by the time your's is ready to sell and then there's going to the new one comming out of cause but then come sale time there's over 100 yearling's by the same sire in the sale's. So to sum thing's up whether your linebreeding/outcrossing, breeding for sale's or to race yourself it is one big gamble i can see why a lot of people don't breed as it's easier to go to the sale's and pick the one you want that's standing right in front of you..

[triplev123]

I've got to say, the whole linebreeding/outcrossing thing is a fair bit of a wank IMO and I say that because there have been & are many examples of either approach producing top class racehorses.
Further to that, what focussing solely on either approach also commits is the age old crime of producing bits of paper that comply with theory... instead of taking into account the likely outcome of a mating between the flesh & blood individuals before you.
Studs & Stallion Owners have their own ideas of course but they have pretty much always given tacit and at times active approval to virtually any horse breeding theory that there has ever been...linebreeding, outcrossing, duplicating female lines, cycle breeding, magic crystals, skip three times round the toadstools and throw a dart, all the fun of the Fair, all the bullshit under the Sun, because by doing so they don't alient a potential customer who might hold one or more of those approaches dear. That I can understand.
Breeding Consultants however, by and large they're just theoretically obsessed Charlatans who, if you were look into their backgrounds, more often than not have never once aimed up with their own razoos and produced so much as a single horse worth a feed. That does not however stop them offering to reveal to you, in return for a fee, that which you could just as easily find out for yourself.
Like Chuck D & Flavor Flav from Public Enemy said....Don't believe the hype.

[mango]

As Zipper said there's no right or wrong. But people have an opinion on what they like and don't like and the way i see it you can take it or leave it and just hope at the end of the day you are happy with your choice.

[triplev123]

I still think there are rights and there are wrongs Mango however they're no great mystery in terms of basic livestock breeding principles.
Horses are the same as Cattle, Sheep, Dogs, Pigs, Goats and every other animal that has come under any form of reproductive selection pressure from Humans.

It's all about form and function.

[Flashing Red]

I've always regarded non-Meadowskipper lined horses as outcrosses personally. Meadowskipper is so dominant - like Northern Dancer/Mr Prospector is with the gallopers.

[Zipper]

Mango,

Breeding to sell in the current environment is almost pointless.

I have bought 4 horses from the APG sales the last 2 years in a row and none of the vendors would have made a return on any of them. All of these horses are extremely well bred and excellent types (of course, otherwise I wouldn't have bought them!), why would you bother wasting your time breeding to sell.

It is always interesting however, to wait to and see which freshman sires ending up becoming proven.....

[Zipper]

Triple,

I agree the hype that comes with any stud or stallion is always a load of bull-dust.

However, I am convinced that taking a common sense, simple and practical approach to some theories can actually yield a much better outcome. As a young naive rookie I got sucked in by the hype and tried to complicate the hell out breeding when I first started and it cost me a fortune.

There are plenty of people who make a living out of providing advice or so called expertise that one can find out for themselves and breeding consultants are by no means the worst!!

[mango]

Hi Zipper

I can see your point about breeding to sell and i've been thinking about it for a while, i can see why people don't breed and just buy from the sale's as breeding cost's do blow out. You have the service fee, cost to be served, agistment, foaling down, weaning, race series payment's and then the prep for the sale so really at the end of the day for all your hard work and $$$$ that go into it you don't make what you should. There are also so many risks involved before even getting a yearling to the sale. On the other hand i do like seeing them born and raised and watching them go through the sale.

[triplev123]

G'day Zipper,

Breeding to sell is hard these days...but it has always been hard. In some instances I expect that the changes that have taken place here in NSW will make it somewhat easier demand wise however, as always, there'll be $$$ for the best or those perceived to be the best, and not much for the rest.
I sold my 1st one in the APG in 1993 and it was no different back then than it is today. Quality sold well back then as it had always done to that point and always did from there on and will continue to do so forever...while the rest will produce results that range through from reasonable to poor to at times, awful. Good ones can & do slip through the net at times with seemingly well bred, well made yearlings not bringing as much as you'd think they should have and there'll others with far lesser credentials bringing much more than you'd think anyone in their right mind would be prepared to spring for. I tried for years to work it out but ultimately gave up trying to reconcile the anomalies, you'll drive yourself mad and never get an answer.
Others no doubt have variations on the basic theme but there are 4 things you definitely need in place...and there's a 5th & a 6th that are highly desirable if you're going to have one sell well.
(1) It has to be by a sire the buyers want, (2) it has to be from a successful immediate maternal family, (3) it has to be well made, (4) it has to have some size about it, (5) probably best if it is a Colt and (6) if it has a sibling or siblings that are also racing at the time sale day rolls around then that's about as good as you can get it. If the Planets align and all that's in place when the Hammer starts to fall, while there are no guarantees the chances are you'll probably have a good day.


Sire hype wise, there are a number that are very much deserving of praise and they tend to be by far the cheapest ones to advertise as they generate their own hype by way of doing what they're meant to do...siring winners.
In fact I've found in the vast majority of instances that the truthfulness and accuracy of the advertising afforded a sire is very much directly proportional to the actual level of confidence connections have in its future. It's a window to their soul that they've inadvertently left open, one which gives you a valuable heads up if you know where to look for the signs. Basically the more that they stretch the truth, the more foot loose & fancy free they've flown with the facts in the advertising, the lesser the animal tends to be and the lesser the impact you can reasonably expect it to have.

[sushi]

any investment that can yield 20+% over 12 months is going to be high risk and hard work...