Harness whip rules

[David Summers]

What are your feelings about the changes in the harness whip rules over the last year or so?

Personally, I am quite happy with them now myself, but have the feeling from talking to some harness "people" that they think that reverting back to how it used to be in the "good old days" would be better.

I most certainly do not share their opinion , and have expressed that vigorously on a couple of occasions (usually after one or two drinks!)

[triplev123]

I think that it makes a lot of the driving look a bit ungainly & unbalanced a lot of the time.
That being said I don't think unloading on a horse is the best way to get it rolling anyway so that's a small price to pay. The really talented drivers I've seen over the years don't need to flog them to get them to give their best. Loud noises, shouting is just as good or a couple of serious cracks of the whip on the wheel disk/shaft/dust sheet even, that does a lot more to shift them than slashing away like some half arsed Samurai.
I can remember the not so long ago bad old days where they'd come off the track with welts on their rears, sometimes pretty decent sized cuts etc. and some of the really mean pricks around thought nothing of landing really hard stifle shots on them etc. Good riddance to all of that. Thankfully I haven't seen anything that was even remotely like it in recent times.

[David Summers]

Yes, good riddance to that. I well remember a few years back , and cringe thinking about it now , a 2YO filly having it's first race start was flogged with the whip 66 times in the last 600 metres. Utterly disgraceful.

[David Summers]

Another thing I have noticed on occasions recently , is drivers choosing to not use the whip hardly at all , in the straight shouting and shaking and pulling the reins high in the air seems to be having the effect of horses actually throwing their head back. This is especially noticeable in tight finishes.

It seems to me that some drivers are getting too excited and overly animated with the reins and are actually having the effect of pulling the horse's head back and upwards. That really , I don't think , does anything other than confuse the horse.

[Ziggy]

I hate seeing Drivers jumping up and down in the sulky, just hate it. Don't they realise what it is doing to the momentum of the horse? It really is a pet hate of mine. I think anyone who drives like this should carry a driver in the sulky and see how it puts them off stride. I know this from countless years of pretending to be a horse at home as a kid and pulling my friends around in Dad's sulkies. Watch a race at globe and you will see a couple of drivers in every race do this.

as far as whip rules I love seeing the horses only being tapped up and not flogged. Much more appealing to the eye.

[triplev123]

That whole routine of flapping about in the bike like an errantly caught and recently dragged aboard Stingray does absolutely nothing good for a horse's momentum.
The adopted tactic of some by way using the lines in a kind of flapping motion akin to the way you might try from a distance to clear your garden hose of a snag is ridiculous as well. All that seems to happen is the lines yank on the horse's mouth not surprisingly causing it to then throw its head up in their air & backward in response.

[DAZZA]

Each horse to their own really. Some need a few to remind them there in a race. I hate seeing a bloke flog a horse when its 50m behind the leader. Its cruel. However Im all for the rule were after the 200 you can cross em and go for your life. As long as the horse is competitive and looking like earning a cheque than I think it should be up to the drivers opinion. Ive seen few drivers get 2 weeks recently and it didnt really warrent 2 weeks on the sideline which can cost someone $1000 bucks plus. So basicly if your gonna earn, have a go. But it is true, you can flog some of them as much as you want, they arent going to run any faster or try any harder. As for the flopping around in the gig, yeah its does get a bit much sometimes, but once again each horse to their own.

[gregcattell]

you 2 fellars must not watch drivers whip actions much
rule is flicking motion only whip not to go past drivers head
stay inside sulky not to the out side of sulky oh yes go have
look at horses being washed you will see welt markes

[Flashing Red]

I feel as long as there are no welts, then the horses have not been hit too hard. I'm with Triple V with this one.

[Don Corleone]

Love the whip rule you guys have got. I agree that seeing drivers throwing their arms, bodies, heads around like some African highland tribal dance does nothing to help a horses balance. Take a look at the best drivers and you'll find none of them do that.
Totally agree that the odd horse needs a reminder every now and then. I have one at the moment that if you go out a drive her with the reins she gives you nothing, in fact she will stop and smell the roses. A simple flick with the stick and she switches on.

[triplev123]

We had a good racemare that was a bit laid back at times and she needed some sort of a jazz up in the prelim. in order for her to put her game face on. The trick was to wander out like it was just a training trip then catch her unaware by yelling/banging the shaft/dust sheet/wheel disk etc. Another good one was to pull up right alongside one of those thin metal sponsor's signs and give it a good solid kick or whack it with the whip. BANG! It was just like turning on a light switch. In time, when she got used to that sort of routine, we'd put her in the bike the day before a race & let her gallop flat out for as far as she wanted to go. That used to work a treat too. Changing it up on them in a race can do wonders also...as long as you let the Stewards know your intentions prior to the race, of course. :p

[Don Corleone]

I had a filly a few years ago who would not go unless I ran the handle of my whip along the corrugated iron fence surrounding the track. Oneday one of the young girls who used to help me took her out and when I came onto the track the girl was yelling and urging the filly to move forward. Later when the filly raced she didn't need the running of the whip along the fence but always needed urging verbally.

[King]

I dont mind the rule, but its governance is inconsistent and a shamble. No mention of G Hall Jnr hitting Our Toto no less than 20 times in the Gloucester Park straight on Friday night. How is this not excessive? That is every 7 metres on the 140 metre straight.

[Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild]

Anyone old enough to remember the bad old days of the cane whip will realise that the whip rules have improved immensly. I think it's just the interpretation of the rules that need some work.

[Flashing Red]

Anyone old enough to remember the bad old days of the cane whip will realise that the whip rules have improved immensly. I think it's just the interpretation of the rules that need some work.

I agree. The days of the cane whips were 110% animal cruelty.

[Messenger]

Digging up an old thread here I know but some drivers whip actions appear as though they are beating the horse - just have a look at little Kerryn giving it to Gotta Go Yanky winning the 3rd at Melton tonight

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX140815&ms=vic#MXM14081511

I don't think it is a good look

[Richard prior]

Kerryn appeared to hit that horse a fair bit from the point of the corner to the finishing line, No not a good look at all Kev but to be fair, A friend pointed out that she also hit the shaft a lot.

[arlington]

From HRV Integrity Department. 17 August 2015

Whip Use
Drivers are not currently permitted to use the whip in a freehand manner prior to the 200m and whip use at any time within a race or trial is required to conform to the provisions set out under Rule 156(3)(b). Most importantly, a wrist and elbow flicking action is required, regardless of whether a driver crosses his / her reins to use the whip.
At the recent Chairmen of Stewards conference, the use of the whip was discussed and some proposed Rule changes were considered. Before any implementation, these proposed Rule changes will need to be endorsed and approved by the Harness Racing Australia (HRA) Executive members, however for all drivers’ awareness, the proposed changes to the whip rules may include, but not be limited to:


A requirement to maintain a rein in each hand unless activating gear;
Not applying the whip in a continuous manner or without allowing the horse time to respond.

Please note: These are only proposals, however further notice will be given prior to any permanent change to the current whip rules. HRV Stewards will in the interim maintain a proactive approach to ensure that drivers comply with the required whip action and furthermore that any whip use is not “excessive” in frequency or the overall number of occasions in which the whip is utilised.

[Messenger]

I have looked at that rule a few times Wayne.
They need to leave out the elbow bit and make it simply wrist flicking action and enforce the non-continuous /allow the horse time to respond part and problem solved

ps Kerryn was fined $400 for it was her second offence in a month

[arlington]

I have looked at that rule a few times Wayne.
They need to leave out the elbow bit and make it simply wrist flicking action and enforce the non-continuous /allow the horse time to respond part and problem solved

ps Kerryn was fined $400 for it was her second offence in a month ....HRV Stewards will in the interim maintain a proactive approach to ensure that drivers comply with the required whip action and furthermore that any whip use is not “excessive” in frequency or the overall number of occasions in which the whip is utilised. The stewards are enforcing the rules Kev, a 'la $400 fine.


Furthermore, the proposals would help address the look? A requirement to maintain a rein in each hand unless activating gear; Not applying the whip in a continuous manner or without allowing the horse time to respond

[Messenger]

Thinking further on the over use of whips, I wonder whether connections of a horse could ever protest against an opponent on the grounds that the driver broke the rules through over-use of the whip?

[Njcstables]

Thinking further on the over use of whips, I wonder whether connections of a horse could ever protest against an opponent on the grounds that the driver broke the rules through over-use of the whip?

It has been done Kev. 2011 Ballarat cup.

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=BA290111

[Messenger]

It has been done Kev. 2011 Ballarat cup.

http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-reports-detail.cfm?mc=BA290111

Thanks Nate - very interesting. I can see their dilemma but the margin was only a HD so I would like them to err AGAINST the offender

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA290111&ms=vic

[arlington]

Thanks Nate - very interesting. I can see their dilemma but the margin was only a HD so I would like them to err AGAINST the offender

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=BA290111&ms=vic


I would like them to err AGAINST the offender. To the letter of the law, both drivers offended Kev. The other for free reining.

[Messenger]

In this case Wayne but it would be interesting to see some balls when there is only one offender

[Messenger]

You have to say looking at Prix d' Amerique how any whips are barely noticeable

[HaroldParker]

Is it any wonder that no one is going to trots. It's not just because of TV either. I used to take my girls to Harold Park often when they were younger. I live a couple of hundred metres from the atrocity it is now but as they got older and got into it more it really upset them to see their favourite horses "flogged". By 13 and 14 they weren't interested anymore and were bemused I was.

I was taking a look at the results from last night and see that A M Grives was reprimanded for unacceptable whip use. I counted and I'm pretty sure I missed a few, no less than 60 strikes on Lochinvar, which included a short pause probably because her arm had gone numb.

Up at Albion Park, K L Dawson on Destreos. 12yo, nearly 400th start in a race and she gave it a flogging up the straight.

Now we can debate whether in both instances it made a difference. Would Lochinvar have finished 3rd and would Destreos of held on, probably not but who knows ?

This is I do know. For quite a few months in the year I'm fortunate to watch some of the best drivers in the world in action around The Meadowlands and Yonkers. The whip is used but sparingly. The majority of our best aren't prolific users either.

Real action is required. Education, fines, suspensions and the odd relegation in severe cases. It's a blight on an industry suffering an identity crisis with younger racegoers.

[lasse]

Bring back Beattie .He was very proactive in enforcing the whip rule plus many others that seem to be in the too hard basket.

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=29141

The rules and a new video are linked to this article.

No mention of penalties
The essence of the rule which needs to be enforced is 156.4e - that the whip can only be used in a flicking motion

Greg Sugars is pretty impressive on the video

[Messenger]

Check out Mark Pitt's whip action on Gumdrops
It was a cracker of a race
I wonder when a horse might lose a race because of incorrect whip use - maybe never as that margin was a SHFD in a group race

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=MX070516&ms=vic#MXM07051605

[Messenger]

Watching Kerryn win the 5th at Hamilton today.
She may be able to argue that she is only using wrist and elbow but there is no way that it is the required 'flicking motion'

[KTQ]

What do you think? What effect will it have? Do you agree?
http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=31814

[aussiebreno]

Wtf?

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=31814

Mr Want said many drivers were concerned that control over a horse would be curtailed without a whip, especially when horses shy (leap sideways) or back up. He said HRA Executive accepted the challenges the ban presented for ensuring safety was maintained for drivers, people, horses, trainers, stablehands, and people nearby.
“Between now and the implementation of the whip ban, we will consult widely in the industry, especially with drivers and trainers, and with animal welfare advocates, such as the RSPCA,” Mr Want said.
“Whatever tool evolves from this process it will only be allowed to avoid or guide a horse out of a dangerous situation to itself, other horses, drivers or anyone nearby."

Australia’s leading driver – and 11-times winner of the national drivers’ championship – Chris Alford said he supported the ban.
“Drivers are very sensitive to their horses and appreciate and support moves to ensure high standards of animal welfare that are aligned with community expectations,” he said.
“We also know that a shying horse is a danger to itself, drivers, people and other horses nearby. I fully support the decision to ban the whip, plus maintain safety for all involved”."

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=31814

[DRUIDRACING]

bye bye harness racing its nearly over............

[Jimbob]

What does this do to the breeding? It is the biggest game changer ever! Some stallions careers will be over in 9 months time. More horses getting turned to dog meat as they wont try. Less horses to make it to track. how can this be a good thing? I have 9 months left with one of my horses of racing as she doesn't try without the whip. she will be retired when ban comes in. What happens to track records? New records without the whip? What a dumb decision to please the people who don't support the industry!

[DRUIDRACING]

Everywhere we turn the governing bodies make decisions for the industry. every year it gets harder!!! ..........they dont name the sources of there studies ? or are they what a chosen few think will be good and and excellent speech writer attempting to get the participants to believe what is said.

Turnover ? Horses ? all going to be improved ? doubtful..............As other threads have said in the past there are fewer horses bred............fields are smaller (I have no Evidence) but it seems i could make a study up to reflect this.

We the Industry Participants need to see this evidence and now before this great sport disapears.

[trish]

Taking the whip away from drivers is like taking the whip away from Madame Lash in her sado masochistic dungeon . Its just not going to be the same.

[Danno]

One would hope that a sensible, well thought through, new set of rules for whip use is where we are going, this announcement displays a want for diplomacy, a want for consultation, a want for a sensible way forward and it seems a want to please the RSPCA rather than a want to learn some half decent problem solving skills.


What I want to know is who wants Want? damn sure I don't.

[eliteblood]

Taking the whip away from drivers is like taking the whip away from Madame Lash in her sado masochistic dungeon . Its just not going to be the same.

That would just be going too far Trish :-)

[allanjg]

can anyone out there give me a personal profile on this geoff want.

[trish]

Personally I think that the only way that we could create any public interest in harness racing is if the drivers could look allot more like this .
Could you imagine this photo without the whip . How boring !!!
http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/4468cc5808438e8cacd89354694b62ef?width=316 (http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwj3p7XL6_LQAhWBTJQKHV1eCT0QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailytelegraph.com.au%2Fnewsl ocal%2Fmanly-daily%2Fmadame-lash-was-a-character-i-created-but-when-i-dressed-as-her-everything-was-possible%2Fnews-story%2F957a3497b55cac9ec213386731c68394&psig=AFQjCNHRtLwIW3hi63dT0D4zUac9dlmJ7A&ust=1481775703723481)

[strong persuader]

Is this not an easy issue to fix? The main issue is the appearance of abuse. So why muck around continuing with fines for whip infringements? Fines obviously aren't working, drivers are happy to cop a fine if they are still winning races!

So how about a simple system of suspensions, 2 weeks for the first offence, 4 weeks for the 2nd offence, 8 weeks for the third offence, 16 weeks for the fourth offence and so on. If drivers can't get the message then you are removing them from the public eye for longer periods thereby fixing up the image that is being presented.

[trish]

Totally agree with you & its a good idea. Whats going to happen to all of those horses that won't finish off as good as they normally would without a tap up or smack. I believe they will have to retire but I think I know what could really happen to them.

[Messenger]

I think the reasoning behind it is that they believe the younger generations are more sensitive to the issue of cruelty to animals.
Yes, I know what the ultimate cruelty is but you cannot use that argument or else we will be walking the perilous path that the dogs do

[trish]

This subject will run its course. I find it a joke. I'm going back to back to the dungeon for a beating . hahaha.
Does anyone really believe the whip thing will save the industry. Doubt it. There won't be any horses to whip!!

[trish]

http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/12/20/change-whips-up-fear-and-doubt/

[Messenger]

I am happy for the administrators to try everything under the sun as this part of MG's article is the real worry as Trish suggests in post 46

"sent shockwaves through the small but uber passionate harness racing fraternity".

[trish]

good read......gallops https://www.racenet.com.au/news/129994/OPINION:-Steve-Moran-%E2%80%93-Whip-ban-inevitable

[codywinnell]

good read......gallops https://www.racenet.com.au/news/129994/OPINION:-Steve-Moran-%E2%80%93-Whip-ban-inevitable

Very good. Canvassing professional opinions; take out the over emotion, think rationally, think progressively and what do you get? Often those are key ingredients to common sense.

[arlington]

From the HRA Chairman

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33299

[Messenger]

From the HRA Chairman

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33299

It is interesting to read about Norway

[arlington]

It is interesting to read about Norway

Interesting yes, comparable...some poetic licence.

Or were you referring to this thread Kev? http://www.harnessracingforum.com/showthread.php?5417-Interesting-Race&highlight=norway
The whip replacement, the guiding tool to be made from Norwegian wood?
https://www.thelocal.no/20120206/stallion-caught-with-pants-down-at-norway-racetrack

[Messenger]

Here is a bit Norwegian Gold for all
I don't see any guiding tools either
Maybe Kerryn should have been one of the drivers at HRA's whip consultation this week - I notice that there are no female drivers amongst the 10 attending

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC9VaulNrVU

[arlington]

Political gold Kev

[Messenger]

:)

[Messenger]

Ray Chaplin kindly shared this reply he received from Norway:

In Norway, the ban on using whip has been in force since the mid 70’s. Our drivers are not allowed to carry with them any form of device during the race or when warming up the horses. According to our rules and regulations all goading of the horse shall be administered gently with the lines/reins.

Also when correcting a horse which misbehaves in a manner that can pose a risk to the driver or other attendants, the drivers are dependent on using the lines/reins, in addition to their loud voice maybe. In such cases, off course, our stewards will allow a somewhat more excessive urging with the lines towards the horse.



In our opinion, there is no basis for claiming that more or more dangerous situations occur due to unruly horses as a result of the ban on using the whip.



I hope my answer was helpful to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us again if you need more information.






Med vennlig hilsen

Hanne Sæbø
Sportsmedarbeider|Det Norske Travselskap

[aussiebreno]

I recently received an interesting email from Ray Chaplin of Equine Excellence about this thread, from which I have extracted the following quotes:

I wonder if HRA have done the foundation work necessary to provide them with a factual framework on which to base their efforts and more importantly their expectations


Harness racing’s viable future in Australia is at present almost totally dependant upon wagering revenue.
Currently HRA and industry participant attention is focussed upon alternative handicapping/programming initiatives that will create larger and more evenly balanced fields in order to maximize wagering turnover and revenue
No modelling exists that establishes the levels of increased wagering turnover and resultant revenue gains that will be needed to maintain and grow the sport into the future


Given the continuing product related declines illustrated above [ 2015/16 numbers for Mares served, Named horses plus overseas imports, Number of Starters, Number of races run - all Lowest ever] is it realistic to believe that changes to race handicapping/programming will be able to fill the ever widening gap in product availability [racing stock] necessary to generate wagering revenues required to secure the sports future - or is this focus a tactical band aid initiative that will simply slow the inevitable demise of Harness Racing at the professional level?


It is likely that the gap will be so great as to indicate that it is not feasible to expect that tactical changes to handicapping/programming/field makeup will resolve the serious threat to the viability of the sport
If this assessment is correct it will then create an urgency to address the fundamental strategic issue the industry faces – a lack of public (customer) support
Step 1: Whip haters are never going to be racing fans no matter what. Bring back the whip. Sport needs intensity and competitors trying to win at all costs (within the confines of the spirit of the game/sportsmanship). Losing the whip loses that.

[Messenger]

I totally disagree with that Breno. Where is the intensity lacking in the link in post 54

In addition to that, it is a fact that most people and kids live in the cities, and IMO most of these kids - our future, would be horrified at the thought of whipping a horse.
If drivers were only tapping horses (not that different to using the reins) it might be acceptable but despite changes to the rules, many drivers arm actions look bad

Maybe I am somewhat influenced by the fact that the best horse I was connected with would kick the driver out of the cart if he touched him with a whip

[aussiebreno]

I'm not sure about Knight Pistol exactly but most trainers say their champions had a will to win. Not many in everyday races share that will and even worse trainers describe them as non-triers. This is where the whip comes in. (Many other factors were at play in the intensity/excitement of that race and any race in fact - whip just one of many factors that come together for the final product)

People who are gobsmacked at the idea of whipping horses are generally not fans of breeding animals for human entertainment/greed. Not going to be fans anyway.

New fans don't understand negative influences of the whip on performance - social media has taught me just how naive some people are in regards to horse racing. Going to be a laughing stock for Average Joe when he watches a race and sees there are no whips.

[Messenger]

I'm not sure about Knight Pistol exactly but most trainers say their champions had a will to win. Not many in everyday races share that will and even worse trainers describe them as non-triers. This is where the whip comes in. (Many other factors were at play in the intensity/excitement of that race and any race in fact - whip just one of many factors that come together for the final product)

People who are gobsmacked at the idea of whipping horses are generally not fans of breeding animals for human entertainment/greed. Not going to be fans anyway.
I am a fan but I am not a fan of whipping horses - I am guilty of turning a blind eye at times but having just watched the Brierly Steeple I did not like the head on shot that looked like horses that were giving their all were copping plenty of stick

New fans don't understand negative influences of the whip on performance - social media has taught me just how naive some people are in regards to horse racing. Going to be a laughing stock for Average Joe when he watches a race and sees there are no whips.

How is it then that I did not laugh at that Norwegian race (and we know that they do not have whips in any of their races)
Times in many of races will come down and there will be horses that will not attain the grading that they would have under the old system
Breeding will probably be affected as stallions that produce 'triers' will be in demand
I have not heard anything about whips being banned when training so I guess trainers will be trying to train the non-triers to respond to the scream they give when using the whip at home - that does not conjure up good images

[aussiebreno]

How is it then that I did not laugh at that Norwegian race (and we know that they do not have whips in any of their races)
Times in many of races will come down and there will be horses that will not attain the grading that they would have under the old system
Breeding will probably be affected as stallions that produce 'triers' will be in demand
I have not heard anything about whips being banned when training so I guess trainers will be trying to train the non-triers to respond to the scream they give when using the whip at home - that does not conjure up good images
Quite clearly you are better than just an Average Joe Kev. A sample of facebook and twitter comments paints a different picture.
I'm not quite sure how an argument is made for times coming down due to no whips?
Yep - some of the whip use behind closed doors isn't pretty and will only increase now one would think.

[arlington]

How is it then that I did not laugh at that Norwegian race (and we know that they do not have whips in any of their races)
Times in many of races will come down and there will be horses that will not attain the grading that they would have under the old system
Breeding will probably be affected as stallions that produce 'triers' will be in demand
I have not heard anything about whips being banned when training so I guess trainers will be trying to train the non-triers to respond to the scream they give when using the whip at home - that does not conjure up good images

It's a blanket ban intended here Kev, no whips in training. I don't think that's the case in Norway. One of the many many differences between Norway 1982 and Australia 2017 and even Norway 2017.
From a business perspective comparing Norway to Australia is a big stretch. The timing of the introduction of the whip ban in Norway coincided with what amounted to Norwegian trotting having full control of animal gambling. And I believe (even now) there was virtually no competition from the thoroughbreds, if it existed at all, and there's no greyhounds.

I can't help but think introducing a total ban here, point blank, will have a damaging effect on business. Who will extend an interest free line of credit waiting for the crowds to flock and betting to boil over? Realistically what could Tabcorp have said when asked to publicly comment about whips???? And I'm sure Tabcorp has already run the numbers on a total ban on whips such as this in harness racing. Would possibly drop Tabcorp's wagering turnover by 5% but harness racing by 20%.

[Messenger]

Wayne, they probably don't have gallops competition in Norway - it is mind boggling to think that Trotting is bigger than gallops in Europe (yes, even in France)
If we are going with a blanket ban then we really have to push it home as a point of difference.
Use it to capture the young - have a pony trot before the first every Saturday night and Sunday arvo
We have to try and capture families because I agree with Ray's last sentence - the lack of public support is our biggest problem (I see the equation as >support>ownership>racing stock>turnover>support>......)

I did wonder about staggering the change ie 2018 no whips in 2yo races, in 2019 no whips in 2yo & 3yo races, 2020 no whips in 2yo, 3yo & 4yo races (which you program more of), 2021 no whips except in claimers, 2022 no whips at all.

[KTQ]

I wonder how many families see the ponies, would love to get their kid involved but think it's too difficult to get started. I was lucky enough to have ponies as a kid and my dad's a trainer so I did pony trots from 8-16 but families with no horse contact, perhaps they could have a recruitment day or sign up period to get non horsey people involved

[trish]

http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/12224.jpg Safety Device to be trialled in Hobart next week.


Is it just me or does this new safety device designed to replace the whip suspiciously look like a whip??








http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33454

[trish]

I wonder if it has an air bag?

[Messenger]

I like this one but you cannot use it on cows ;)

[arlington]

I wonder how many families see the ponies, would love to get their kid involved but think it's too difficult to get started. I was lucky enough to have ponies as a kid and my dad's a trainer so I did pony trots from 8-16 but families with no horse contact, perhaps they could have a recruitment day or sign up period to get non horsey people involved


One of the main hurdles (Warrnambool pun) for non horsey parents is costs. A property, a pony, a horse float, fuel to tow pony around.... reasons why they are non horsey. How many kids, and their parents, have been inspired and have gotten involved by seeing the pony trots? Not that I'm suggesting we don't have pony trots but I'm wondering what the figures are.

[arlington]

http://www.harness.org.au/news/images/main/12224.jpg Safety Device to be trialled in Hobart next week.


Is it just me or does this new safety device designed to replace the whip suspiciously look like a whip??


http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33454


Is the safety device illustrated a cut down whip with a blunt ended rubber sleeve over it? HRA will provide measurements and sleeve to keep costs down of having to throw a whip out and buy another?

[KTQ]

One of the main hurdles (Warrnambool pun) for non horsey parents is costs. A property, a pony, a horse float, fuel to tow pony around.... reasons why they are non horsey. How many kids, and their parents, have been inspired and have gotten involved by seeing the pony trots? Not that I'm suggesting we don't have pony trots but I'm wondering what the figures are.

perhaps they could start a program where everything is taken care of, all they need to do is do a training course on how to handle a pony, turn up and gear the pony up and race.

I'm not sure how many would turn up and get inspired, but if it was more attainable and there were signs around telling kids and parents it was possible, maybe there'd be more interest.

When I aged out of the ponies, a girl used to drive my pony. We provided everything, she just got him to the trots and drove him. She came from a horsie background so had a float but I'm sure the clubs could work something out with pony owners

[Messenger]

My first reaction is that it is a fantastic idea Katie but then when I put my 'modern world hat' on (it is an ugly thing), I wonder about the risks and liability - sad that this even pops into my head
Pony trots should always continue but I hear where Wayne is coming from and you would/should be evaluating there industry output. Everything should be evaluated but pony trots are one thing that should not be all about results.

[teecee]

Over here it's almost a prerequisite for young people wanting to become involved to go through what is called here "Kidz Kartz" on their way to a trials licence and on to the junior driver's licence. Most of the current juniors and many of our younger professional drivers driving in our races have gone through the programme. Even if you have no ties and no pony it is not an impediment to going through the program. Many of the youngsters have their own ponies, often more than one which are often made available to those who dont.

They compete often on racedays where friends and family get to view them performing and there is even a Kidz Cartz NZ and Auckland Cups. Often as sort after by the young as are the real thing.

This program is a real success story over here (NZ) getting young and new blood into the industry already with skill sets.

[Messenger]

It sounds fantastic Tony - we let you guys take all our money and never bother to learn anything from you

[arlington]

It sounds fantastic Tony - we let you guys take all our money and never bother to learn anything from you


The pony trots, having been run for 30 odd years here, have been useless compared to it's NZ counterpart Kev?
I think I see where you're coming from "...pony trots are one thing that should not be all about results". For sure but it obviously isn't the savior of our industry. Will it be for NZ?

Running them "every Saturday night and Sunday arvo" (imagining the poor kids out at Melton or Ballarat mid Winter) would up the rate of non horsey kids maintaining significant involvement as trainers, owners, and of course drivers when they're in their 20's? But, still, I'd hope they continue for as long as our sport continues. Got to love those standing start handicaps.

The pony trots are a great thing and I notice the new General Manager of Racing has it in their portfolio but keeping those kids encouraged when they have disposable incomes is the thing. I'd measure that result.


Back to the thread:

http://www.harness.org.au/news-artic...?news_id=33487 (http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33487)

Whips to be retained in training.

[Messenger]

Yeah, we have probably had pony trots as long as NZ but the part I found interesting was the fact that "Even if you have no ties and no pony it is not an impediment to going through the program"
As for the cold - before the first race at Melton tonight : we are talking about 5pm. Wayne, it is us oldies that feel the cold - not kids
I don't know whether the aim is to keep them involved until they have disposable incomes or even that they may one day be the ones putting on the big show - maybe just having as many as possible growing up with 'harness' in their vocabulary

[Messenger]

Whip free racing is still going to happen but not from Sept 1 - said to be unachievable

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33821

I wonder why that would be when down in Tassie they seemed to be making good progress 4 wks ago ( which then was still 16 weeks till the new season)

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=33574

[Fan of Jate]

If the mighty saints weren't playing tonight Kev I would whip up to Devonport races tonight and check it out but I will get some feedback this Sunday and relay some 1st hand info back to the forum. I am looking forward to seeing the "Prototype 1" secret weapon which will now be version 2.

[Ray White]

Try this without whip training - loading your horse.

https://www.facebook.com/shannon.barnes.7543/videos/758800000815900/

[Fan of Jate]

Absolutely superb......would a recording of a whip cracking have the same effect? :)

[Messenger]

and I am assuming the floor of the float is covered in carrots :)

Great post Ray

[Messenger]

Photos like this one, that accompanies this piece on the No Whips postponement, do the industry no favours

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Australia-put-whip-ban-on-hold

[Ray White]

Could this be where we are heading with whip free racing?

https://www.facebook.com/punters.com.au/videos/10154775338097945/?pnref=story

[Messenger]

Very funny Ray but these guys beg to differ

[Messenger]

These two reckon not only do you not need whips, you don't need drivers

[Messenger]

This link covers a few subjects, the second being the whip rule - it quotes John Dumesny as saying:

"We have told HRA that the whip will be continued . . . in NSW, but we don't want to get to the stage where there are different rules in different states,''

http://www.harnesslink.com/Australia/Everyone-loses-in-Albion-Park-battle

[Messenger]

I like to watch the 2yo races.
I think he only he used the whip on a few occasions but there is a lot of forearm in the whip action that Cameron Maggs uses to get Ideal Suspect into 3rd place at Echuca today
The horse was having only its second start (the widest runner on straightening)

http://www.harness.org.au/meeting-results.cfm?mc=EC100817&ms=vic#ECC10081706

[Messenger]

Update

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=34657

[Fan of Jate]

Never driven in a sulky nor used a whip on a horse but good luck with the "wrist action" method especially when the pressure is on. Not sure if the stewards will be able to define that particular action every time, for every driver in every race.

[strong persuader]

Never driven in a sulky nor used a whip on a horse but good luck with the "wrist action" method especially when the pressure is on. Not sure if the stewards will be able to define that particular action every time, for every driver in every race.
I'm sure that just like all rules, drivers will try to circumvent this one at times. I'm also sure that the stewards will pick those infringements up 3 out of 4 times. So life continues on as it did before. The big win here is that drivers are now required to keep reins taut. No more looking like wild barrel racers, or worse still out of tilt windmills with both arms waving wildly in the wind in the drive home. I know that the uneducated think this is the best way to get a horse going, but I will always remain a fan of sitting quietly and confidently and allowing the horse to feel the same.

[Messenger]

The thing I cannot understand about the proposed change is - if they are having concerns about the safety aspect, why not make the rule that you can carry a whip but it is only for safety measures

[trish]

Seriously how the hell can hitting a horse make it safer����

[trish]

Jesus I thought guiding a horse was ALWAYS done from the front end . I have never seen anyone put a bridle on their arse!!!

[strong persuader]

Jesus I thought guiding a horse was ALWAYS done from the front end . I have never seen anyone put a bridle on their arse!!!

May have to put you up for post of the year for pointing out the obvious so succinctly :)

[Messenger]

They are both fantastic points by Trish

[Messenger]

Chairman's Update

http://www.harness.org.au/news-article.cfm?news_id=34779

I have emailed HRA's Andrew Kelly to ask why the whip cannot simply be carried and not used except in the event of whatever emergency drivers think that they are required for (and thus are rejecting safety tools proposed so far) but his reply did not answer the question

[Messenger]

There has been deathly silence on whips lately.
Just watching Maryborough and seeing drivers hit their horse as many as 20 times in the straight - it is not a good look

[Dot]

This was released today Kev on Whip use/rules

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=37518

[Messenger]

It has been a complete backdown from the supposed whip free racing.
The concerns about the drivers needing a control tool in an emergency were BS as Andrew Kelly never told addressed my email asking why drivers could not keep their whips but only use them if an emergency arose

On those rules a driver can hit a horse 20 times in the straight - not that I saw too many pauses in Nathan Jack's action to name one

[Messenger]

I would have thought Kerryn Manning a horse lover and yet once again she was fined for applying the whip too strongly to Micrometeor last Thursday
I don't think some drivers can control themselves in a belief that it could cost them a win
Have they ever stood back and had a look at what it looks like?
It is a pity Harness racing lost its courage after promising whip free racing

It would be more controversial to see stewards reverse a close decision like this particular race because of the whip action
- it couldn't happen in this race because 2nd placed driver Mark Pitt was also fined for using the whip too often

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX120718&ms=vic#MXC12071807

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=MX120718&fromstate=vic

I found 'Integrity Matters' in my email after writing this and it includes an update on whips including:

The HRV Stewards understand the widely held industry view that the whip is an important safety tool and we will be determined in our policing of these new whip rules to do our part to ensure the whip remains. However, it must be remembered that these new whip rules were only considered after the decision was originally made to ban the whip altogether in 2016 and I urge all drivers to commit to adhering to the new rules as this may be the last chance the industry will have to maintain use of the whip.

Well I must be plain stupid because nobody using the 'safety tool' argument has explained to me why drivers cannot carry a whip for safety BUT only use it for such emergencies

[Messenger]

Fines do NOTHING to deter drivers from flouting the whip rule
see last night's Gp1 Triad for the fillies at Albion Park
or the Gp2 Derby - both close finishes where the winning drivers abused the whip rule and received a mere fine

Tell the drivers they could lose a race for flouting the rule and it will stop overnight!
AFL followers might remember when Kevin Sheedy had his bombers grab an opponent and hold him up for a sec after they took a mark - they brought in the 50m penalty and the bombers stopped doing it instantly

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=AP210718

[aussiebreno]

Fines do NOTHING to deter drivers from flouting the whip rule
see last night's Gp1 Triad for the fillies at Albion Park
or the Gp2 Derby - both close finishes where the winning drivers abused the whip rule and received a mere fine

Tell the drivers they could lose a race for flouting the rule and it will stop overnight!
AFL followers might remember when Kevin Sheedy had his bombers grab an opponent and hold him up for a sec after they took a mark - they brought in the 50m penalty and the bombers stopped doing it instantly

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=AP210718

And another one, Dave Moran on Lochinver Art last night just needed to be DQed and we'd never see an inside back row horse deliberately OPS ever again.

[Messenger]

I have sent the following email to both HRA's Andrew Kelly and HRV's Brett Day but received no reply

"Can you explain to me why there cannot be a ban on whips but let the drivers carry them as their ‘supposed safety tool’ in case of some supposed emergency"

I have received replies to email from them in the past but not this time.
I think it is because there is no valid reason why the above could not be the policy

It could be brought in slowly:

2yo races in 2019
2yo and 3yo races in 2020
All races in 2021

[Messenger]

Just got a reply from Brett Day.
He rightly points out that any decision would have to be a National decision as horses move between states.
He did not rule out 'the whip for emergencies only' suggestion

[gutwagon]

I don't think we should consider a whip ban until the thoroughbreds do . Their fat padded whip looks far worse than our thin one that can barely be seen on tv . But if it does happen I agree and have suggested before that it should be a gradual introduction as you have suggested.
The way the industry is at the moment I think worrying about the whips is like worrying about the colour of the deck chairs on the Titanic !

[Messenger]

I don't think we should consider a whip ban until the thoroughbreds do . Their fat padded whip looks far worse than our thin one that can barely be seen on tv . But if it does happen I agree and have suggested before that it should be a gradual introduction as you have suggested.
The way the industry is at the moment I think worrying about the whips is like worrying about the colour of the deck chairs on the Titanic !

You're not the first to point that out to me Rick - it just riles me that HRA have done such a massive back down, diminishing their credibility when it comes to animal welfare, and have achieved ZIP

The 'who cares if I win' fines are a a JOKE

[gutwagon]

When the fine and penalty doesn't deter people from committing the offense that means it's not harsh enough ! But can we trust our governing body to administer these offenses indiscriminately ?

As far as animal welfare goes HRV are in bed with the RSPCA and most people have lost all respect for the RSPCA after the 4 corners report . So that is a whole new problem.

[Hermione]

The New Zealand Cup win with Arden Rooney was case in point, that was horrible to watch, driver said post race the owners will pay the fine :(

[Dot]

Just got a reply from Brett Day.
He rightly points out that any decision would have to be a National decision as horses move between states.
He did not rule out 'the whip for emergencies only' suggestion

Not sure how "rightly" that actually is Kev, after all horses move between countries in Europe including into and out of Norway which is the only country that has banned the whip.

HRA could make a national rule but has no power to enforce the states to adhere to it, but the states can make a local rule and have their stewards panel enforce it, independent of what occurs in other states. The problem would not be the movement of horses but drivers across jurisdictions, but somehow they manage that in Europe too.

In the interests of animal welfare it would not be in the horses best interest to have a uniform ban on whip use in all states of Australia but preferable to have at least one or two jurisdictions that do retain (restricted) use of the whip. It is a utopic thought to believe that all horses will try sufficiently without more vigourous driving and some limited stimulus with the whip to remain viable members of the racing population. And exiting the racing population may have a much more unsavoury outcome for them then more vigourous driving with a limited whip action would. One of the reasons Norway can race with a whip ban without negative implications for the life of the horse is non trying horses can easily be temporarily or permanently moved to a jurisdiction that permits whip use.

Given that changes to handicapping means that juvenile horses are racing at times against older horses means that a graduated introduction of a whip ban based on age wouldn't work either. However those calling for a whip ban introduction beginning with 2yos are perpetuating the misconception that carriage and use of the whip is only ever to punish horses not to educate them. Using Norway as our whip ban model 2 year old racing is the only level of racing where carriage and (restricted) use of the whip to educate horses for racing is permitted.

As for carriage and use only in emergencies it may be more difficult to police what constitutes an emergency then people may think. Bear in mind Norway race only trotters but we like the United States race pacers, and we race far more tightly then the U.S. or Norway does.

A horse galloping in the field, particularly a pacer wearing hopples, is always a danger to itself, it's driver, and the horses and drivers trailing it. It may fall itself or check others and cause them to fall or their drivers to be unseated. Often the remedy to a horse losing concentration and about to gallop, and only the driver may know it's about to happen is a quick flick with the whip to get the horses mind back on the job and pacing properly again.

It was this response from the recently retired driver now administrator, John Campbell at the last World Trotting Conference to Geoff Wants presentation on banning the whip that stopped progression of the whip ban debate in its tracks.

As for HRAs backdown on animal welfare being embarrassing the real embarrassment was HRAs failure to consult properly with member states and participant bodies, and indeed the industries customers, the punters, before announcing the ban. The greatest threat to the welfare of the industry's horses is a non viable industry.

[Messenger]

I understand many of your points Dot

Unless it is a dainty flick the harness whip in action looks bad - we are in business so anything that looks bad has to change

It looks worse for us than the gallops because our whip is 4 times as big - 4 times as visible

If you can't go 'Norwegian' then you have to get serious about enforcing the flick rule - protests and loss of races is one such measure

[Dot]

Have to agree with Rick, I think visually the TBs whip is far more visible particularly on TV then ours, though the action of some of our drivers is more ungainly then many jockeys

The issue of sufficiency of penalties and efficiency of policing whip rules, be they what they may, is really the issue at hand, not banning the whip.

I don't see why in the future Australian Harness Racing could not be known for, not banning the whip as Geoff Want intended, but for having the highest penalties and most rigid adherence to the whip rules in the world.

As an aside Mr Want prophesied that if we didn't ban the whip government would ban our sport as the NSW government had banned greyhound racing there. Well very interesting turn of events there, not only is greyhound racing not banned it now receives additional support from government and has announced with the aid of funding from the NSW government they will be staging the richest greyhound race series in the world with total prizemoney in the vicinity of $1.7m and $1M to the winner.

Makes our sport and ID series look truely the "poorest" of the codes and I'm afraid continues to dishearten me for our future.

[Messenger]

Don't get me started on the Doggies Dot. They are a disgrace - the number of animals they go through! Why should everybody adopt a greyhound to solve their problem - they are not the perfect breed for a pet for most

[gutwagon]

I hope the do gooders realize that most cows, sheep, pigs and chickens are bred purely to be slaughtered and put into the food chain. They kill about 99% off them. The racing industries try to save and provide a good quality of life for a huge % of our stock but a small amount will end up in the food chain. I bet the horses and dogs in the racing industries have a much better life than that first group ! Most of the trainers I know look after their animals welfare better than they do their own.

[Danno]

Don't get me started on the Doggies Dot. They are a disgrace - the number of animals they go through! Why should everybody adopt a greyhound to solve their problem - they are not the perfect breed for a pet for most

Kev, Doggies aside, we should focus on our own issues, not those of others I believe. In respect to the whip, the people who believe it should be banned are not the people training or driving them..WHY?? I think you need to ask yourself that question and have a serious look at what the answers are going to be. Experience should never be invalidated, its the best teacher in the world bar none. Horses like kids respond better to the carrot than the stick no doubt in a very high percentage of occasions, BUT do you remember the results of banning the cane at schools? Poor old teachers have been battling to get day to day respect ever since from sections of their students ( not all of them and not all the time) there IS a place for the stick/whip/cane/kick up the arse in life, and the sooner the people who think they have all the answers acknowledge they don't the better off everyone will be. There is no single answer to all situations in any walk of life. Nuff said.

[Messenger]

Point taken Dan. Not a horseman (I wish I had been - compensated by taking daughter to Ponyland every week for 10yrs) but I was a teacher for 20 years and I could never have picked up a ruler/strap to hit a child even if it was permissible in my time (last century). When you think about it - not all the teachers gave corporal punishment in our days either, some obviously could while others couldn't. I was a shocker of a kid and received the cane etc often and I cannot say it worried me but I just cannot imagine doing it myself.
My biggest problem with whips is 'how' some use it.
Definitely nuff said

[gutwagon]

If our current whip rules were properly enforced with penalties harsh enough to deter repeat offenders, most of the controversy would go away.

[Messenger]

An astute follower has pointed out that it would be good to have some research on what the public thought about them (especially 18 - 30 yo's) as we have to know the opinion of the market place on many matters such as this in our endeavor to attract new fans

Possibly nothing too pointed but I was thinking it would be good to get a sample of our intended market to comment on some videos in terms of what they liked about them and what they didn't. The research would be about more than just whips but the variety of short clips would make it possible for the viewers to notice some minimal/zero whip use and some over the top use

[aussiebreno]

An astute follower has pointed out that it would be good to have some research on what the public thought about them (especially 18 - 30 yo's) as we have to know the opinion of the market place on many matters such as this in our endeavor to attract new fans

Possibly nothing too pointed but I was thinking it would be good to get a sample of our intended market to comment on some videos in terms of what they liked about them and what they didn't. The research would be about more than just whips but the variety of short clips would make it possible for the viewers to notice some minimal/zero whip use and some over the top use

My thoughts are 80% may say ban the whips, but how many of them would come along the trots anyway? A lot of the 20% who are ok with keeping whips would be the ones more likely to get involved in the industry.

[Dot]

An astute follower has pointed out that it would be good to have some research on what the public thought about them (especially 18 - 30 yo's) as we have to know the opinion of the market place on many matters such as this in our endeavor to attract new fans

Possibly nothing too pointed but I was thinking it would be good to get a sample of our intended market to comment on some videos in terms of what they liked about them and what they didn't. The research would be about more than just whips but the variety of short clips would make it possible for the viewers to notice some minimal/zero whip use and some over the top use

Sorry Kev but I think what your astute follower is suggesting would be a waste of resources. We already know if asked the vast majority of the general public regardless of age would support a ban on the whip. But they would be doing so from the same position you do, as an observer with a preconceived negativity about all "whip" use, and without knowledge of the alternative positive uses of the whip.

Peer pressure alone ( apart from in the TAB section of a pub or club probably) would likely see those who are undecided or ambivalent side with those in favour of banning the whip.

As for showing videos of minimal and over the top whip use what would be the purpose of that, other then reinforcing a negative message. I'm not a supporter of banning the whip but I am offended more then most in the industry by excessive or over the top or inappropriate whip use.

We don't need a marketing survey Kev, we know what we need, rules that minimise whip use with appropriate penalties and enforcement to ensure they are adhered to.

And outside of raceday an education program ( as previously promised by HRA in the form of a series of video presentations from Dr McLean) for trainers to ensure they understand the appropriate way to use a whip in the education of horses.

[gutwagon]

Kevin, I think they should be surveying people that bet on racing,dogs and sports but not on harness racing. Try to find the reasons they don't bet on our sport and see if those issues can be addressed .
All of us on here are already fans of harness racing so we are blind to what is keeping new people away . I think that we have a perceived integrity problem. I have never heard anyone mention whips as an issue, the main comment I hear from outsiders is "all the races are fixed aren't they". Most of the trainers and drivers that I speak to genuinely believe that certain people are getting special treatment from authorities. Until this perception goes away we are in trouble.

[Dot]

I think your very right there, Rick market research amongst those who bet but not on us would be more beneficial. We don't have a perceived integrity problem, we have an integrity problem, green light scandal in NSW with a participant and steward gaoled, race fixing charges and convictions in QLD and VIC, that I don't think we at the participant level take enough ownership of. Sure there are messages from the authorities that it won't be tolerated and increases in integrity funding but where is the message from the participants to the general public and punters that cheats and cheating won't be tolerated amongst our ranks?

Regardless of if its true or not the belief amongst many trainers and drivers that "certain" participants get special treatment from authorities seems to be endemic to the culture of harness racing making that perception not an easy thing to change.

[Messenger]

As for showing videos of minimal and over the top whip use what would be the purpose of that, other then reinforcing a negative message. I'm not a supporter of banning the whip but I am offended more then most in the industry by excessive or over the top or inappropriate whip use.



I am not talking about totally crazy whip use but videos with none/virtually none and videos with above average/considerable use. To see if our ideal market pick up on whips

Like I said - the video survey could aim at gleaning a lot more than just the public's opinion of whips

[Messenger]

I think you guys are unnecessarily limiting your expectations by only wishing to convert dogs and gallops punters

I have a fair idea of why dog followers like their code but it would sure be interesting if a survey revealed that a percentage of the public liked the fact that the dogs chase/race of their own free will (with no human or whip in sight)

[Messenger]

I think your very right there, Rick market research amongst those who bet but not on us would be more beneficial. We don't have a perceived integrity problem, we have an integrity problem, green light scandal in NSW with a participant and steward gaoled, race fixing charges and convictions in QLD and VIC, that I don't think we at the participant level take enough ownership of. Sure there are messages from the authorities that it won't be tolerated and increases in integrity funding but where is the message from the participants to the general public and punters that cheats and cheating won't be tolerated amongst our ranks?



We welcome them back and even make them mentors for our young participants!

[Dot]

I am not talking about totally crazy whip use but videos with none/virtually none and videos with above average/considerable use. To see if our ideal market pick up on whips

Like I said - the video survey could aim at gleaning a lot more than just the public's opinion of whips

Well if the young are our ideal market some of them don't fit into that demographic and it would be considered too small a group to be statistically relevant but the video survey has been going for 20years now amongst my family for my horses and degree of whip use gets picked up every time.

[Dot]

I think you guys are unnecessarily limiting your expectations by only wishing to convert dogs and gallops punters

I have a fair idea of why dog followers like their code but it would sure be interesting if a survey revealed that a percentage of the public liked the fact that the dogs chase/race of their own free will (with no human or whip in sight)

Not limiting my expectations to converting dogs and gallops punters Kev, just saying we should start with a demographic which is willing to punt, to find out why they don't punt on our code, once we have addressed that and our product is more palatable to punters then we could invest more in attracting people through the gate.

[Messenger]

But don't we need to attract people through the gate because you don't become an owner if you haven't
AND it is owners/horses that we need to put on the show

(Mind you, this might be a chicken and egg story)

[Dot]

It's a symbiotic relationship Kev, we need both. Realistically if it's the 18 to 30 demographic we are trying to attract Kev then the focus has to be on encouraging them to punt (responsibly) because few will have sufficient discretionary spending ability at that stage of their life/careers to make the significant investment required ( even with syndicates) to invest in ownership.

Which is why I have always questioned actually why we need to focus on this age demographic as many people think we do. I've always thought we should focus more on an older demographic who are more established in their careers and life path and likely to have more discretionary spending ability to punt or invest in ownership.

[Messenger]

HRV details Whip Rule

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=38006

The one part that does not add up for me is how being allowed to whip 20 times in 200m/14secs. It is surely continuous and not giving the horse time to respond. Time yourself and see

Offence clock resetting every 28 days is pretty dam generous

Let's see excessive whip use as a grounds for protest - I reckon it would stop happening in under a month

It would however require administrators and stewards to show they care

[Messenger]

Has anyone managed 20 whip flicks in 14secs without it being continuous?
David?

[Messenger]

I didn't mean David Miles in the above post but when the replay becomes available check out his technique in the last 50m of Louis Sedgwick's win tonight
It would be possible to do 50 flicks in 14secs using this technique so I figure if he threw in a couple of pauses he would satisfy the Sept 1 rule

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP140818&fromstate=vic#SPC14081801

[Messenger]

David's quick action would not cut it in NSW however:

Term excessively, continuously and/or without allowing the horse time to respond will take their common meaning;

Although no limit is set within NSW, HRNSW Stewards will use discretion when determining this Rule;

It is considered that rapid use of the whip for a short or long period would be considered unapproved;

A clear break when applying the whip must be displayed.

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=38153

It is bloody ridiculous and a damming inditement of our industry's disunity that every state is bringing out their own version of the whip rule changes

[arlington]

I'll put this in here.

The topic of driver's dropping their foot to touch a horse's hock or hoof came up in a conversation over the weekend. One observer thought drivers were getting around the whip rules with this. Another comment was the fines for such seemed the same as whip infringements. A bit of debate about an unfair advantage from excessive whip use comparable to dropping the foot.
The questions were brought up that whilst whips are allowed, dropping the foot isn't so why the similar fines and, is a punter really ripped off if a driver employs a tactic that isn't allowed at all?

What are people's thoughts?

I was going to post this under Industry Indicators as a couple of the people in the conversation swing between the gallops and the trots with their dollars.

[Danno]

Wayne, from a horseman's/ driver's perspective rather than a punter's or a Steward's viewpoint dropping the foot to make contact with the hocks is an action that rarely has greater rewards than the exposed risk. In short, a desperate measure, you do see it happening from time to time down under, it was VERY common a few years ago in North America and quite predictably fell out of fashion about the same time a few "locals" were giving it a "go".

A bit like a new "fad" that was/has been doing the rounds, putting your horse too short in the bike so his hind feet make contact with the wheels to "stir him up" and maybe get him to engage some adrenalin.

It's always important to think like a horse if you want to successfully engage with them the but this crap is bordering on animal cruelty in my humble opinion.

[Messenger]

http://www.harnesslink.com/Canada/Whipless-racing-goes-off-without-a-hitch-at-H3R

Whipless racing goes off without a hitch at H3R

[arlington]

I heard someone gave that link to the numerous jockeys who infringed in Australia's greatest showcase, the Melbourne Cup. Was that you Kev? ;)

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=43662

Not surprised to see this reminder - seeing a driver using a flicking motion is less often than not

[Messenger]

Flicking motion LOL
Check out winner Bullys Delight in R1 at Melton tonight - he copped more shoulder than the local butcher
(and the 2nd horse). Kate Gath 3rd on the fav seemed to be correct

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX120620#MXC12062003

Looking at the stewards comments column - the driver was probably fined for this but do you think it will stop him or any other doing it again to win

[Messenger]

Are we really pretending that our leading driver Chris Alford is using a flicking motion

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP190620#SPC19062006

[Messenger]

In Video Highlights at the bottom of the HRA homepage you will find a video about the new whip rule featuring John Tapp and Todd McCarthy

http://www.harness.org.au/index.cfm

[Messenger]

It will be interesting to see how well they enforce the 'flicking action'
I reckon the R7 at Bendigo tonight is an interesting example
IMO Michael Stanley on the winner might look like he is complying but it is more force than flicking

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BN220820#BNC22082004

[Messenger]

Here is the written form of the new Whip rules for Vic

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=44780

(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a), “wrist only flicking motion” means:-

(i) Ensuring no force is generated by the use of the elbow or shoulder when applying the whip.

(ii) The forearm is not raised beyond forty-five degrees relative to the racing surface.

(iii) Not applying the whip with overt force.

For the next 2 months the penalties are as follows

Minimum Penalty Guidelines 1 September 2020 – 31 October 2020

Rule 156(2)

1st Offence: Caution*

2nd Offence: Minimum $200 fine

3rd Offence: Minimum $400 fine

4th Offence: Minimum 2 Week Suspension of licence to drive in races

Rule 156(3)

Please note that in accordance with the provisions of Rule 156(3) when using the whip in an unapproved manner, HRV Stewards will continue to police this rule when drivers utilise the whip on more than 20 occasions in the final 200m, which will be considered to be using the whip excessively and or too continuously.

1st Offence: Caution*

2nd Offence: Minimum $100 fine

3rd Offence: Minimum $200 fine

4th Offence: Minimum 7 Day Suspension of licence to drive in races

Not too tough while they are 'learning'
The test will come down the track when a driver completely forgets all the above in a big race and wins by the narrowest of margins

[Messenger]

Well we have had 2 days / 2 meets with the new rule and so far 12 cautions
A few of these seemed to have absolutely no idea about it being wrist NOT arm and shoulder

[Messenger]

Kerryn just holds them off in the main trot of the night at Shep thanks to totally ignoring the new whip rule

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP050920#SPC05092006

[djgood]

Kerryn just holds them off in the main trot of the night at Shep thanks to totally ignoring the new whip rule

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP050920#SPC05092006

she only got a warning , i copped 2 fines in row $200 and $400 despite no infractions in 9 years and one warning 6 years ago , different rules between nsw and vic , the first fine i accept as i did cross the reins and was did deserve it , the $400 was over the top i feel for the next one as i used a little bit of shoulder

[Messenger]

Yes, in this learning period you will see in post 142 that a caution is all for first offence (from Sep1 onwards)
I hope we will get to the stage where you can lose a race on protest for totally ignoring the rules like she did
When the margin is only a head the owners of the 2nd horse have the right to be peeved - especially if it was a big race

If they got that serious about enforcing it you would find that it stopped overnight (or else drivers who just didn't get it, would stop getting big drives)
I remember when Essendon coach Kevin Sheedy had his players hold onto the opposition player who had just taken a mark or got a free kick (just long enough to slow them down/stop them from playing on)
The AFL decided they had to bring in the 50m penalty to curb it and in the blink of an eye his players stopped doing it

[Messenger]

WAKE UP KERRYN she was no better on the 2nd placegetter in R8
She is using sidearm in a continuous manner not a wrist action

[Messenger]

Kerryn won R7 today in a tight finish and she did not offend
:confused: She had the whip in her left hand :D

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SW060920#SWC06092002

ps How big a run was it by the 2nd horse Delwyns Son
pps Delwyns Son's last 2 wins have been when the trainer has not driven him

[teecee]

New Zealand is to join the club from October 1. We will have to adjust to the Australian way AGAIN. For the life of me surely it is easier to count to 10 from the 400 metres to the winning post. That is what we used to have., Very simple. Easy to see. Easy to count. From October 1 it's all about the wrist action. Going from a new entrant counting 1 - 10 to a physician knowing the ins and outs of wrists and arms in one overnighter.!!!

[Messenger]

I don't care about the count Tony, they can wrist flick as many times as they like (although not continuous as that is a bad look) because it is about being seen to not be hurting the horse
We have to be horse lovers. Dog lovers do not hit their dogs with a stick

[Messenger]

Racing Victoria are going down the same road

Racing Victoria is calling for national action on whip reform and eventually a ban on whips in all races as it seeks to underpin racing's social license as community attitudes to using animals in entertainment change.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/rv-jockeys-clash-on-whip-ban-plan-20200907-p55t8c.html

[aussiebreno]

Racing Victoria are going down the same road

Racing Victoria is calling for national action on whip reform and eventually a ban on whips in all races as it seeks to underpin racing's social license as community attitudes to using animals in entertainment change.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/rv-jockeys-clash-on-whip-ban-plan-20200907-p55t8c.html

How many new fans?

[Messenger]

How many new fans?

That's not supposed to be a justification is it Brendan?

[Showgrounds]

That's not supposed to be a justification is it Brendan?

It's all about sucking-up to the racing minister and a government that owes animal rights activists for some deals done in a broom cupboard somewhere in Spring St. RV comes out with this but says nothing about Government-imposed lockdowns wrecking the Spring Carnival?

I reckon the silence is the sound of money changing hands.

[Messenger]

As my posts probably indicate - I am all for it. I am a dog lover (not greyhound racing) and would never hit one with a stick. I am also a horse lover and cannot see why we need to hit one (maybe as a rare safety control measure) - I think a soft tap to say go is all we require. It may mean some horses don't give as much but so be it.

[aussiebreno]

That's not supposed to be a justification is it Brendan?
From your post "Racing Victoria is calling for national action on whip reform and eventually a ban on whips in all races as it seeks to underpin racing's social license as community attitudes to using animals in entertainment change."

Nothing about the welfare of the horse just that society doesn't accept it as entertainment anymore. This decision is all about conforming with society and trying to win back some entertainment dollar and nothing to do with welfare.

Leaving trainers disgruntled they can't train their horse the way they want to and owners paying up for a horse that's shown ability that isn't producing its best.

The big danger is the domino effect. Ban jumps racing. Ban the whip. Next step is ban racing.

[Messenger]

Brendan, I see successful no whips racing as a big argument for racing. It can be said that the horse is running of his own volition. Just as the doggies can argue that the greyhounds chase of their own volition. The doggies problem is what some have been known to do to encourage chasing (live baiting) and the spills/injuries on their tracks (Mind you these are both secondary to their massive slaughter/wastage of dogs)

In your quote above I take 'attitudes to using animals in entertainment change' to mean the publics concern regarding animal welfare. It has to be HOW animals are used that is the issue, if it is just the use of animals full stop then you're right - all horse riding will have to stop (if that is what the vast majority/community attitude becomes)

[aussiebreno]

Brendan, I see successful no whips racing as a big argument for racing. It can be said that the horse is running of his own volition. Just as the doggies can argue that the greyhounds chase of their own volition. The doggies problem is what some have been known to do to encourage chasing (live baiting) and the spills/injuries on their tracks (Mind you these are both secondary to their massive slaughter/wastage of dogs)

In your quote above I take 'attitudes to using animals in entertainment change' to mean the publics concern regarding animal welfare. It has to be HOW animals are used that is the issue, if it is just the use of animals full stop then you're right - all horse riding will have to stop (if that is what the vast majority/community attitude becomes)
Trainers will just have to use jiggers and crackers behind closed doors!

Leave the gate unlocked and take the collar off your dog see how many pets stay home of their own volition!

The public concern is animal welfare. The Administrators concern is getting fans. There is a difference.

Just because a cross section of society doesn't like something doesn't mean the cross section of society that does enjoy that activity must cease that activity. That you'd roll over on horse riding is a shame. We need people who fight for the sport.

[Messenger]

Trainers will just have to use jiggers and crackers behind closed doors!

Leave the gate unlocked and take the collar off your dog see how many pets stay home of their own volition!

The public concern is animal welfare. The Administrators concern is getting fans. There is a difference.

Just because a cross section of society doesn't like something doesn't mean the cross section of society that does enjoy that activity must cease that activity. That you'd roll over on horse riding is a shame. We need people who fight for the sport.
I am not sure what dogs staying home has to do with not hitting them with a stick (you don't do you?) I have had a few dogs who stayed home without fences even (in the main I have not lived in suburbia)

I am just a fan of harness racing because in my impressionable teenage years I was taken to the Showgrounds
I am a member of the public concerned with animal welfare (my signature for the last few years have been a giveaway) - I am not an Administrator
Yes society does not decide everything for all in society but I think professional racing needs near on a majority of society onside to have the social license it enjoys

I am not rolling over I am just following an industry whose direction I am actually happy with, if you dont agree with the way HRA and RV are moving and want to fight for your beliefs, I say go ahead and argue your case here and more importantly where it will heard
I think you will need more than the jigger argument

The only good horse I was involved with wouldn't let the driver touch it with the whip, in the end I don't think Milesy even carried one
If a horse goes from fast to slow because he isn't being belted he will just race in a lower grade
Check out Self Assured's run in the 'What a Run' thread posted by TC this week after Mark Purdon dropped the whip

ps Don't forget Norway have managed to be whip free

[aussiebreno]

I am not sure what dogs staying home has to do with not hitting them with a stick (you don't do you?) I have had a few dogs who stayed home without fences even (in the main I have not lived in suburbia)

I am just a fan of harness racing because in my impressionable teenage years I was taken to the Showgrounds
I am a member of the public concerned with animal welfare (my signature for the last few years have been a giveaway) - I am not an Administrator
Yes society does not decide everything for all in society but I think professional racing needs near on a majority of society onside to have the social license it enjoys

I am not rolling over I am just following an industry whose direction I am actually happy with, if you dont agree with the way HRA and RV are moving and want to fight for your beliefs, I say go ahead and argue your case here and more importantly where it will heard
I think you will need more than the jigger argument

The only good horse I was involved with wouldn't let the driver touch it with the whip, in the end I don't think Milesy even carried one
If a horse goes from fast to slow because he isn't being belted he will just race in a lower grade
Check out Self Assured's run in the 'What a Run' thread posted by TC this week after Mark Purdon dropped the whip

ps Don't forget Norway have managed to be whip free
You mentioned dogs so I fast forwarded to the bit people keep them against the dogs volition. Why is that ok? Simple fact is dogs don't want to be kept in a backyard or weaned of their mother at 12 weeks to go to a strange home but 'dog lovers' the world over do it. Horses don't pace naturally or want to be in a cart, saddled up and participate in an organised race. We have to be comfortable that we are controlling them and be ok with this for our enjoyment. It's pretty morally corrupt to be comfortable with those things but not a light padded flicky thing used lightly as it is these days. Those who are uncomfortable will simply move from one domino to attack the next aspect.

Yes of course some horses don't need the whip to perform. Does not negate that some do though.

Good luck to a 50kg jockey with a 600kg beast being unruly.

Norway? Because the world tunes in to see all the champs race from Norway.

[Messenger]

If you are going to go off on a red herring about dogs being kept against their will in backyards would you also be proposing that all horses are released to roam the High Country :confused:

You're not happy with the new regulations and are happy that some horses need to be whipped to perform. In the past some schoolchildren and prisoners performed better with the threat of the whip - do you think we should bring it back for them?

As I have said I am happy with light flicks - that is what HRA are enforcing
I have also always said that I am happy for drivers to carry a whip for in case of emergency - add jockeys to that

I figure Norway would be like Vic or NZ - similar population and of most interest to the locals just like Vic or NZ. They have the advantage of being closer to many other nations and like the rest of Europe have the advantage of being the major racing code - not gallops

[aussiebreno]

If you are going to go off on a red herring about dogs being kept against their will in backyards would you also be proposing that all horses are released to roam the High Country :confused:

You're not happy with the new regulations and are happy that some horses need to be whipped to perform. In the past some schoolchildren and prisoners performed better with the threat of the whip - do you think we should bring it back for them?

As I have said I am happy with light flicks - that is what HRA are enforcing
I have also always said that I am happy for drivers to carry a whip for in case of emergency - add jockeys to that

I figure Norway would be like Vic or NZ - similar population and of most interest to the locals just like Vic or NZ. They have the advantage of being closer to many other nations and like the rest of Europe have the advantage of being the major racing code - not gallops
No Kev I don't endorse letting all the pacers/thoroughbreds out into the high country as I am comfortable and consistent with the moral dilemma of controlling of an animal. Fine to use light padded instrument lightly and fine to enclose them in a yard. Brick by brick those who are uncomfortable with the moral dilemma will tear it down until there is no sport left.

I'm talking about horses not humans. I gather prisoners were hit with force with the whip rather than tickled with a light padded instrument anyway.

Golden rule in racing is the jock/driver must be seen to be trying. Can see a few rants at the TAB or on Twitter about the lack of vigor. It brings down the intensity of a close finish and leaves the sport with a blander product for those that do actually enjoy the sport. Alienating your own market to appease those who will never enjoy the sport.

[Messenger]

I don't put whacking animals to go faster in the 'controlling of an animal' category. We are both happy with a light instrument lightly so I am not sure what we disagree on?

Is it the number of times or the continuous use? Both can be a bad look and cancel out all the benefits we gain with the public by advocating light instrument lightly.

You think using the whip in the approved manner (something Gavin Lang would have had no problem with as that was his style) will alienate punters?
If you expect punters to know driver's weights, I reckon knowing how a driver is allowed to use the whip will be a piece of cake

One solution to punters complaining about a lack of vigour which could be happening now (as some are obeying the new directive and others not) is if those that are racking up the warnings cannot learn (and we decide we cannot do without them) is to have no whip (except carried for an emergency) :p Then punters only interested in the $ cannot expect to see any difference in vigour between riders/drivers. However, I don't think the drivers are so stupid as to not learn. Look how Kerryn Manning decided after her warning and first fine to carry the whip in her left. Like I said when comparing it to Sheedy's directive to his footballers to hold onto the opposition player who gets a mark or a free - once they brought in the 50m penalty it stopped overnight

[aussiebreno]

I don't put whacking animals to go faster in the 'controlling of an animal' category. We are both happy with a light instrument lightly so I am not sure what we disagree on?

Is it the number of times or the continuous use? Both can be a bad look and cancel out all the benefits we gain with the public by advocating light instrument lightly.

You think using the whip in the approved manner (something Gavin Lang would have had no problem with as that was his style) will alienate punters?
If you expect punters to know driver's weights, I reckon knowing how a driver is allowed to use the whip will be a piece of cake

One solution to punters complaining about a lack of vigour which could be happening now (as some are obeying the new directive and others not) is if those that are racking up the warnings cannot learn (and we decide we cannot do without them) is to have no whip (except carried for an emergency) :p Then punters only interested in the $ cannot expect to see any difference in vigour between riders/drivers. However, I don't think the drivers are so stupid as to not learn. Look how Kerryn Manning decided after her warning and first fine to carry the whip in her left. Like I said when comparing it to Sheedy's directive to his footballers to hold onto the opposition player who gets a mark or a free - once they brought in the 50m penalty it stopped overnight
The banning of it which was in the quote from the Administrator that I took issue with.

I don't expect punters to know drivers weights. I expect people to start picking up that Kima and Kate Gath, Puppet, Sugars, McCarthy drive winners and that other drivers do not. Form guide saying Kima weighs xxKG and Puppet weights xxKG doesn't add anything to the fact Kima and Piuppet have driven winner after winner in the past. Similarly formguide saying J Bloggs weights 120kg doesn't add anything to the fact J Bloggs struggles to boot home a winner in the past. Part of any newbies learning a new hobbby/sport would be finding this out for themselves or a friend and anyone else already has opinions on drivers.

There is more action and enthrallment when the whips are cracking and people can be seen to be giving their all compared to people being hamstrung and seemingly not trying very hard. Just because the whole field will be sitting quite as church mouses doesn't make up for it.

[Messenger]

Providing an abundance of info like Drivers wins and maybe weights (although I see your point about fluctuations) might be called being User Friendly and even be an arm of marketing

If people can get close enough to the track the hooves and drivers calling is enough. It only happens in closish (my variation on close) finishes anyway. I never missed the the whip cracking when Dillon won 3 metro races without one.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree

[Messenger]

A long whip discussion with John Caldow after R2 at Melton today which he raised as an example of why drivers need whips - as Andover Sun was very wayward early in the race. This is the safety aspect which is why drivers need to carry whips (even if they were ever banned from using them in a tight finish)
As far as the finish goes if the wording of the new whip rule is serious, although it didn't look much, John Caldow was not flicking Andover Son when he won R2 at Melton today. I don't know whether the replay will show it but the close up on Trots Vison did

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX110920#MXC11092008

[Messenger]

Kerryn had better go back to carrying the whip in her left going on R6 at Terang, not that her fellow place-getters were only 'flicking' their horses
If the stewards do their job she will now be up to the bigger fine (and next time a suspension)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=TE120920#TEC12092002

[Messenger]

Vic have released another demonstration video

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=45094

[gutwagon]

I think this new whip rule and its enforcement will be a lot like the rules in competition walking ! Some people will be penalized for running while others doing the exact same thing will never get pinged !

[Messenger]

I don't necessarily disagree with that Rick but I can see a difference already

[Messenger]

I am thinking that Kerryn has had a suspension and is back to a Caution again. She has not learnt what a flicking action is and will probably manage to reach a 4th offence (suspension) by the end of the month (the end of the trial period)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MH051020#MHC05102009

[Mytwobobsworth]

I am thinking that Kerryn has had a suspension and is back to a Caution again. She has not learnt what a flicking action is and will probably manage to reach a 4th offence (suspension) by the end of the month (the end of the trial period)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MH051020#MHC05102009

Tell me how the winner of the first race at Melton Saturday night is a flicking action. If you lean a little to the side can you use your shoulder?

[Messenger]

Tell me how the winner of the first race at Melton Saturday night is a flicking action. If you lean a little to the side can you use your shoulder?

I think you're right John but it isn't as bad as Kerryn's sidearm action

The drivers have been warned coming into Saturday night

Whip Use

HRV Stewards advise that in accordance with the notice of increased penalties in feature races, drivers will not be afforded a caution for whip use should they offend in a Group 1 event. Furthermore, as previously advised where HRV Stewards form an opinion that a driver has not attempted to comply with the applicable AHRR (Rules), a penalty greater than the advertised minimum may be applied.

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=45221

[Messenger]

KM very lucky not to be cautioned again in R3 last night - she has no idea of what a flicking action is

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=45494

They are keeping the new rules
BUT the reset each month is RIDICULOUS - it means you are free to break the rules once a month!

[Messenger]

I couldn't split the 2yo's in R3 at Geelong even when Trots Vision put up the photo so when I saw that Ross Payne the driver of the winner was cautioned for whip use, I thought that it could be grounds for a protest but when I looked at the replay the driver of the second horse was little better.
Thinking we can enforce a flicking action is becoming a joke
I am all for no whips - simply let drivers carry them for horse management (safety)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GE301020#GEC30102006

[Messenger]

The gallops have got serious - Kerrin McEvoy fined $50k and suspended for 13 meetings for his whip use on 2nd placegetter in Cup

[Messenger]

Oh Kerryn (not Kerrin)
She starts off well using a flicking action in R1 albeit a somewhat continuously
It deteriorates in R3
Gets a bit worse in R4
and by R7 it has lost all resemblance to flicking and is all arm
She is a serial offender

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX071120

[Messenger]

Anybody that thinks GHjnr whip use on Chicago Bull in the WA Pacing Cup is not a bad look then they are kidding themselves - top of the straight: 10 times in 3 seccs

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP041220#GPM04122003

[Showgrounds]

Anybody that thinks GHjnr whip use on Chicago Bull in the WA Pacing Cup is not a bad look then they are kidding themselves - top of the straight: 10 times in 3 seccs

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=GP041220#GPM04122003

Junior was whacking away like a spaced-out heavy metal drummer and gets fined $750 of his $3600 share of second place money. The equivalent of twenty lashes with the contents from a day old McDonald's salad bowl. Shannon Suvalko gets fined $1200 for the same offence on the winner. Which one stood out to you? Where is the fairness? What were the thought processes of the stewards in dealing out the penalties? Not much, I think.

Great to see a big crowd on track though. Younger people might not be believe me but they used to allow people to actually go to the track to watch trots in Victoria. And, you didn't have to book a sit-down meal to get in!

[Messenger]

I wasn't sure where to plonk this, so here will do

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/horse-welfare-hrv-releases-updated-animal-welfare-framework/

At the bottom of the article you will find a link to HRV's 27 page update of the animal welfare framework (plenty of Appendixes)

[Messenger]

I notice that the stewards are getting pretty slack at enforcing the whip rule, in particular

AHRR 156(4)(a) states:

“For the purposes of sub-rule (3) a driver shall be deemed to have used the whip in an unapproved manner in the following circumstances which are not exclusive:-

(a) If the whip is applied excessively, continuously and/or without allowing the horse time to respond.”

Drivers now go rat-a-tat-tat giving the horse 3 successive hits without time to respond to the first 'flick'

Here is an example from the last race I watched

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=KI060521#KIC06052106

Not terrible stuff even if it is to a 2yo having only its 2nd start but it contravenes the above rule

[Messenger]

I fear we are getting lax at enforcing the flicking rule
R1 at Ballarat tonight - Jackie Barker on the winner is using a strong side arm action

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BA171121#BAC17112103

[Showgrounds]

I fear we are getting lax at enforcing the flicking rule
R1 at Ballarat tonight - Jackie Barker on the winner is using a strong side arm action

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BA171121#BAC17112103

Yes, her action appeared extravagant. It is a little difficult to separate cracks with the whip from slaps with the reigns but I counted at least 25 from the point of the turn. Going by the stewards comment they didn't see an issue. Maybe they will when they watch a replay.

[Messenger]

R9 at Melton tonight, Lance Justice was just flicking Sew What - I think not. At present I would have to say we are virtually seeing no change to drivers actions

[Mighty Atom]

R9 at Melton tonight, Lance Justice was just flicking Sew What - I think not. At present I would have to say we are virtually seeing no change to drivers actions

Hi, Kev you are right but thankfully the whip actions today pale in comparison to the drivers of the past. Have a look at the caning Gammalite received in this race https://harnesslink.com/new-zealand/lord-module-40-years-on/ and Pure Steel in the 1980 Hunter Cup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H15YyIMzXlk. Both of those horses received canings on more than one occassion. Drivers today would end up in jail carrying on like that.

[Messenger]

I reckon you might be right Rod, Teddy's hand was above his head while Bruce looked like he was beating a rug

[Mighty Atom]

Forgot to mention the worst case of all with whip abuse. Take a look at this 1971 video of Mount Eden winning the Miracle Mile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8QBn0RYCkY&t=8s I'm sure harness racing enthusiasts have seen it more than once. Just take a look at Jack Miles wielding the whip up the straight. The champ was a mile in front but, the driver was determined to keep the horse honest. Unfortunately for Jack, the clearest part of that video was him belting the crap out of the horse.
Glad we don't use these old videos as a means of promoting Harness racing amongst the younger generation the Millenials would be outraged rightly so. :o

[Showgrounds]

Old gallops videos, just as bad.

[Messenger]

Compare Greg Sugars whip action with that of Kate Gath and Aaron Dunn (whenever the replays are posted!)
He might have finished 3rd but top 6 qualify for the semis
I like The Candyman as a horseman (in the Gavin Lang mould)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BA161221#BAC16122108

[Messenger]

If we were serious about whips - Kerryn should have Plymouth Chubbs win taken off her

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/media-room/news-article/?news_id=44780

(4) For the purposes of sub-rule (3) a driver shall be deemed to have used the whip in an unapproved manner in the following circumstances which are not exclusive:-

(a) If the whip is applied excessively, continuously and/or without allowing the horse time to respond.

I think we need to put a number on this eg 10 strikes with 20 resulting in mandatory disqualification, then Kerryn may finally listen and not use it 30 times

[Messenger]

Kerryn is not the only one having trouble understanding animal welfare

Bendigo Dec 24
Jack Laugher, driver of Karalta Courage pleaded guilty to a charge under AHR156(2)(a) for using his whip with more than a wrist only flicking motion. In accordance with the HRV Minimum Penalty Guidelines and taking into account Mr.Laugher’s guilty plea and recent record under this rule, Mr.Laugher’s licence to drive in races was suspended for 14 days. The suspension was ordered to commence at midnight 31 December 2021.
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=BN241221

Mildura Dec 27 TWICE
Jack Laugher, the driver of Where Ya Bin NZ was fined $100 under AHRR 156(7) for applying his whip outside of the sulky confines near the 600m.

Jack Laugher, the driver of Starvin Marvin NZ pleaded guilty to a charge under AHRR 156(2)(a) for applying his whip in the home straight in more than a wrist only flicking motion. Mr Laugher was fined $200 and had his licence to drive in races suspended for a period of 2 weeks which was ordered to commence immediately following the 2 week suspension issued against Mr Laugher from Bendigo on Friday 24 December 2021. When considering penalty Stewards were mindful of Mr Laugher’s guilty plea and offence record. Mr Laugher was further cautioned for applying his whip following the completion of the event.
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=ML271221

Keep watching after they cross the line in R12 and you will see the above - which is pretty much where Jack has lost me
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=ML271221#MLC27122109

Melton Dec 31
Jack Laugher, driver of Relentless Me, was found guilty of a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) in that inside the final 200m he applied the whip with more than a wrist and elbow flicking motion. In assessing penalty Stewards took into account the relevant factors as outlined with the HRV Stewards Minimum Penalty Guidelines placing weight on the Group 1 status of this race and Mr Laugher’s poor recent record. Stewards accordingly imposed a 3 week suspension of Mr Laugher’s licence to drive in races and a $500 fine. This suspension was ordered to be served cumulative to a suspension imposed on Mr Laugher at Mildura on 27 December 2021.
http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=MX311221

[Messenger]

The whip rule is not being enforced - you are not allowed to use it 'continuously without allowing the horse time to respond'
Watch Lance Justice's rapid fire use of the whip on Love Ina Chevy in R8 at Melton last night - no mention in the Stewards column

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX070122#MXC07012210

[Messenger]

Continuous is defined

Drivers will be deemed to have used the whip continuously and/or without allowing the horse sufficient time to respond, including but not limited to, when the whip is used on more than twenty (20) occasions over the final 200m. This is regardless of whether the whip is striking the horse or the sulky. Importantly, Stewards expect drivers to break up their use of the whip where possible and as previously defined a break of whip use, will constitute an obvious and identifiable pause when the whip is not utilised for a short period.

And as LJ only used the whip 20 times he is in the clear

I would have thought a rapid fire burst was not giving the horse time to respond but that is not how it is policed :(

[Messenger]

Sweden bans the whip

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/swedish-racing-bans-the-whip/#:~:text=Jockeys%20in%20Sweden%20will%20no,ward%20 off%20a%20dangerous%20situation.%E2%80%9D

No mention of trotting

[Messenger]

LOL Asbestos Douglas cost himself a win in R8 at Mildura last night
After belting Ozzie Battler with the whip coming out of the gate
good trier Ozzie decided he had had enough and in the home straight resented being belted again and it cost them the race
I don't even know why Asbestos went for the whip in the straight as Ozzie seemed to be travelling well and putting in

Watch the replay and right from the start - tell me how this is a good look for harness racing

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=ML220222#MLC22022201

ps Fined $200 - as if this is going to stop the belting

[Showgrounds]

The stewards must have nodded-off, how else do you get away with running a 34.7 second quarter in that class? The stable mate, driven by hose girl, was there riding shot gun with no intention of taking the leader on. I noted every time Ozzie Battler was whacked it turned its head in which cost it the race. I'm an each way bet as to whether this was an action of the horse or Douglas' sloppy control of the reins. We will never know because the stewards didn't bother to ask (it's a long trip home from Mildura). An old-style steward like John Wilson would have glared at him on the track then had his guts for garters in the stewards room.

[Messenger]

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=PC260222

From last Saturday's Menangle meet

LETSROCKLETSROLL – An inquiry into the whip use of driver Josh Aiken was adjourned to a date to be fixed.

ARTILLERY– Held up in the early stages of the home straight until gaining clear running passing the 200 metres. An inquiry into the whip use of driver KerryAnn Morris was adjourned to a date to be fixed.

MISS EXCLUSIVE– Driver Cameron Hart pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(7) for using his whip outside the confines of the sulky passing the 400 metres. After considering the recent record of Mr Hart, he was fined $200

SAVEEON– Trainer Ashlee Grives was fined $50 under Rule 268A(2) for failing to lodge a gear notification for the filly. Pre-race blood sample. An inquiry into the whip use displayed by driver Ashlee Grives was adjourned to a date to be fixed.

BUNDORAN NZ– Post-race swab sample. Driver Amanda Turnbull pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(3) for unapproved whip use, in that in that she applied the whip to the gelding in manner which was considered continuous in the home straight. After considering the recent record of Ms Turnbull, in addition to the Group 1 status of the event, she was fined $400.

STYLISH MEMPHIS NZ– Pre-race blood sample. Driver Jack Trainor was reprimanded under Rule 163(1)(a)(iii) for causing interference, in that passing the 350 metres he shifted wider on the track when not sufficiently clear of THE HONEY QUEEN NZ and as a result raced inside the line of that runner causing it to have to be steadied wider. Post-race swab sample. Driver Jack Trainor pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that he applied the whip to the mare over the concluding stages of the event in manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr Trainor, he was fined $400.

SPELLBOUND NZ– Pre-race blood sample. Broke stride during the middle stages of the score up. After considering the recent record of the mare, a warning was issued. Post-race swab sample. Driver Stuart McDonald pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that in that he applied the whip to the mare in the home straight in manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr McDonald, in addition to the overall Group 1 status of the event, he was fined $800.

JUST HOPE– Pre-race blood sample. Driver Nathan Jack was reprimanded under Rule 163(1)(a)(iii) for causing interference, in that passing the 300 metres he shifted wider on the track when not sufficiently clear of AMORE VITA NZ and raced inside the line of that runner causing it to be inconvenienced. Driver Nathan Jack pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that in that he applied the whip to the filly in the home straight in a manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr Jack, in addition to the Group 1 status of the event, he was fined $400. Driver Nathan Jack was cautioned under Rule 163A(1) for crossing his reins and saluting with a free hand over the final stages of the event.

DUGGEE SLOY– Driver Jack Callaghan pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that in that he applied the whip to the gelding in the home straight in a manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr Callaghan, he was fined $200.

HOT DEAL– Pre-race blood sample. Checked behind the tiring COMET CRUSADER NZ from the 600 metres to the 400 metres. Driver Aaron Dunn pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 163(1)(b)(i) for forcing another runner wider, in that passing the 500 metres he improved to the outside of the tiring COMET CRUSADER NZ which was hanging in under pressure and as a result placed DON LOU in a three wide position prior to the nominated marker. After considering the recent record of Mr Dunn, in addition to the particular circumstances of the incident, his licence to drive in races was suspended for a period of seven days. Driver Aaron Dunn pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that he had applied the whip to the colt in the home straight in a manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr Dunn, he was fined $400.

BLACK ONYX– Broke after the start. After considering the recent of the gelding, a warning was issued. Driver Lleyton Green pleaded guilty to a charge under Rule 156(2)(a) for unapproved whip use, in that in that he applied his whip to the gelding in the home straight in a manner which was considered not to be a wrist only flicking motion. After considering the recent record of Mr Green, he was fined S200.

Yes that is 11 whip offences. Their rules are not proving a deterrent

Ray Chaplin reminded me of this Industry Notice from the HRA Executive back on June 7, 2017

The Executive of Harness Racing Australia (HRA) has reaffirmed its commitment to the removal of the use of whips in harness racing.
“The Executive is committed to the concept as unanimously endorsed at the HRA Annual Meeting last October,” Chairman Geoff Want said after a meeting in Sydney yesterday.
“Despite some objections from participants, this is an important animal welfare issue and we will continue to consult with the broader industry on the implementation date and procedures and to determine how to address their concerns”.
Want said that from the work already undertaken, the original implementation date of 1 September 2017 was not achievable and alternatives will be examined in the weeks ahead.

[Messenger]

Plenty of non-flicking whip actions in the 6 Menangle races on Saturday with Sofia belting home her winner probably the worst

[Messenger]

The whip rules are a joke
95% of Drivers Do Not use a flicking action

Nathan Jack would seem to be a bit of a scapegoat as it appears that he was fined $800 for whipping Mach Dan away at the barrier and so he should be as it was nothing like a flicking action and like all the old replays IS NOT A GOOD LOOK for the sport

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC120322#PCM12032210

But where is the consistency in enforcement
Have a look at Sofia get Credit Master home last week. No mention. What is the difference?

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC050322#PCM05032204

At sometime we are going to have to trial No Whips (carried for emergency only)

[Messenger]

Check out Glenn Douglas belting home another one in the last at Wang tonight and another fine (only)

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=WN130322#WNC13032202

We are still awaiting the adjourned inquiry of him for R7 at Boort last Sunday!
Still nothing in the Stewards Report for that Boort meet

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=BT060322

and yet if you look at the results it now has D/S Driver Suspended

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=BT060322#BTC06032204

if the adjourned inquiry has been concluded it should be attached to the Boort stewards report retrospectively (other things have been) for the stewards are at pains to tell us nowadays
‘This report and the Stewards Comments for this meeting may be amended at the sole discretion of the Harness Racing Victoria (HRV) Stewards as races are reviewed as per the ‘HRV Stewards Internal Review Process’.

While looking for Boort as an attachment to a more recent stewards report I found that Jack Laugher had copped another 5 weeks for belting one at the trials!
see below

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=SP080322

Nothing on Douglas from Boort but amazingly today's Birchip Stewards Report is already up and Denbeigh Wade copped 5 weeks for mistaking the laps at Boort

ps To the stewards - we are going to need to see the write up behind Douglas's D/S from Boort

[Showgrounds]

Jack Laugher may have learnt his whip lesson, he has now taken to kicking horses instead. Watch him on Ozzie Playboy in race 5 at Melton Saturday night. Watch him at the apex of the home turn, 5 big ones with his left foot.

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX120322

I only watched the last half lap but called it out straight away. The stewards must have been looking for a missing pack of Tim Tam's because it didn't rate a mention!

I suspect one of their guide dogs ate them.

In relation to HRV's equivalent to the Leadbeater's possum perhaps the stewards have adopted a strategy of milking Glenn Douglas's bank accounts dry before disqualifying for life. Wishful thinking perhaps, but he should be charged with bringing the sport into disrepute. That assumes a member of the public actually bothered to watch his performances.

[Messenger]

It turns out I missed the update on Douglas in a Bendigo Stewards Report - no wonder it was called 'General' not Supplementary
Here it is

Stewards concluded an Inquiry into the driving actions of Glenn Douglas(Malava Miss).

Further evidence was taken from Mr Douglas, who explained that his drive had broken when initially restrained on the back of Beach Time near the 1300 metres and after a making up ground lost when breaking and then working around the field again he shifted wide near the 900 metres so as not to restrain his drive, believing his best option was to then attempt to get to the position outside the leader. Stewards charged Mr Douglas pursuant to Rule 149(2), “ a driver shall not drive in a manner which in the opinion of the Stewards is unacceptable”. The particulars of the charge being that, as the driver of Malava Miss which had broken and lost ground near the 1300 metres , he then aggressively drove his horse forward with the whip, rejoined the field and progressed forward wide on the track , continuing to drive his horse with the whip when there was no realistic prospect of getting to a position closer to the marker pegs as the field raced down the home straight with a lap left to race, actions which, were, in the opinion of Stewards unacceptable and detrimental to its finishing position.

Mr Dougas declined to enter a plea to the charge and after giving consideration to the totality of the evidence, including the official race replays and their own observations Stewards found Mr Douglas guilty of the charge. In assessing penalty, Stewards considered all relevant factors as outlined in the HRV Minimum Penalty guidelines, that no plea was entered, Mr Douglas’ record under this rule with his most recent offence being in 2019 and the level of culpability which was deemed to be significant. Mr Douglas was suspended for a period of six weeks, with a start date to be advised. Mr Douglas was advised of his right to appeal.

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=BN090322

The 6 weeks penalty is pathetic
What with the Interdom penalty of 6mths from 3yrs ago, still not having been served I am starting to wonder whether Glenn Douglas has something on the stewards

[Messenger]

While looking for Boort as an attachment to a more recent stewards report I found that Jack Laugher had copped another 5 weeks for belting one at the trials!
see below

http://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=SP080322



Pretty embarrassing IMO that this horse flogger who is about to begin another suspension wins the Drivers Championship at Horsham today - maybe they need a sub rule that if you are actually suspended (due to be) you cannot compete

[Showgrounds]

Further to G Douglas' merciless flogging of Malava Miss at Boort, here is the stewards exceptionally lenient reaction to his two Wangaratta drives last night (races 6 & 7). Spare us all but, more importantly, spare the horses!

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=WN130322

[Messenger]

Further to G Douglas' merciless flogging of Malava Miss at Boort, here is the stewards exceptionally lenient reaction to his two Wangaratta drives last night (races 6 & 7). Spare us all but, more importantly, spare the horses!

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=WN130322

It is unbelievable

RACE 6 – YARRAWONGA REFRIGERATION & AIRCONDITIONING WANGARATTA PACING CUP (2210 MS)

Modern Bill (Shannon O’Sullivan) hung outwards shortly after the start was effected.

Ellen Tormey, driver of Brallos Pass ($8.50) which finished in 8th and last position beaten 31.8m after racing outside the leader was queried into the seemingly poor performance of the entire. Ms Toremy advised the entire raced roughly passing the 400m and failed to race in a genuine manner thereafter. Mark Watson, trainer advised the entire to be disappointing and will have blood samples obtain in the coming days. A post-race veterinary examination failed to reveal any abnormalities. Mark Watson will be contacted in the ensuring days to the progress of the entire from the event.

Glenn Douglas, driver of Rick Reilly NZ pleaded guilty to a charge under AHR Rule 156(3) in that he applied the whip to the gelding on more occasion than is permitted inside the final 200m. In assessing penalty Stewards were mindful of the relevant considerations as outlined within the ‘HRV Stewards Minimum Penalty Guidelines’, placing particular weight on Mr Douglas guilty plea his prior record in this being his second offence within 28 day period. Mr Douglas was fined the sum of $200.

RACE 7 – MICK CAREY WANGARATTA TRIBUTE PACE (1800 MS)

Ultimate Hughey (Brooke McPherson) was fractious during the early stages of the score up. A warning was issued against the gelding manners.

One Two Many (Jordan Leedham) raced roughly passing the 600m and again passing the 200m where the gelding hung inwards and locked wheels with Cheddar Valley (Bailey McDonough) a warning was issued against the racing manners of One Two Many.

Glenn Douglas, driver of Treacherous Rock pleaded guilty to a charge under AHR Rule 156(3) in that he applied the whip to the gelding on more occasion than is permitted inside the final 200m. In assessing penalty Stewards were mindful of the relevant considerations as outlined within the ‘HRV Stewards Minimum Penalty Guidelines’, placing particular weight on Mr Douglas guilty plea his prior record in this being his second offence within 28 day period. Stewards were mindful Mr Douglas had not been proven to a charge in race prior. Mr Douglas was fined the sum of $200.

Stewards intend to review all wagering in regards to this event



So even though it was his second offence (that they had seen) within in 28 days he still only cops $200 and then when he does it again in the next race he only cops another $200

Lucky he didn't have a clean slate for the month or else the stewards would probably have given him a bunch of Scratchies and a meal voucher

[Messenger]

This could give the whip rules teeth

66. A horse may be disqualified from a race or placed in a lower finishing position in a race if the horse -

(i) is driven in a manner prejudicial or detrimental to the reputational interests of harness racing.

http://www.harness.org.au/rules/MEETRACE.HTM

[Messenger]

Here is an interim measure until we eventually ban whips

Whips can only be used in the last 400m of a race

If a horse cannot lead without being whipped then he cannot lead

[Messenger]

Clearly the Vics that don't understand the whip rule
At Menangle tonight Josh Aiken fined TWICE, Jackie Barker absolutely belted Joanna all the way up the straight and fined

[Messenger]

I am truly embarrassed at Victoria's lack of enforcement of the whip rules

Take the winners of the 10 races at Shep last night, watch them for the length of the home straight and you will see that only Nathan Jack followed the rules

How did Shannon OSullivan get away with that in R7 and Jack Laugher was no better in R9

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP250522

In case you have forgotten Rule 156, it includes:

(2) (a) A driver shall only apply the whip and/or the rein in a wrist only flicking motion whilst holding a rein in each hand with the tip of the whip pointed forward in an action which does not engage the shoulder.

(b) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (a), “wrist only flicking motion” means:-

(i) Ensuring no force is generated by the use of the elbow or shoulder when applying the whip.

(ii) The forearm is not raised beyond forty-five degrees relative to the racing surface.

(iii) Not applying the whip with overt force.

Have our stewards given up or don't they care?

Offending drivers DO NOT tell me you are horse lovers or at least qualify it with "when it suits my hip pocket"

[Messenger]

I waited for the Shep Stewards Report to come out before returning to this topic (which I will eventually move into the Harness Whip Rules thread)

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/stewards-reports/stewards-reports-detail/?mc=SP250522

Zip, other than young Cody Crossland being cautioned for his use of the whip when out of contention nearing the finish. There is no footage and with the horse tailed off after galloping, I imagine that he used the race as a workout and up the straight simulated being in the finish

Thinking of PP's take on Eagle Farm yesterday, would we allow human athletes to be whipped for sport and entertainment? The American gymnastics team may have come close but the answer is No

It is interesting how the HRV Chief of Stewards and Andrew Kelly, CEO of HRA do not reply to your email when the topic is not one they wish to discuss (guessing this to be the case of course)

If tomorrow, whips were carried but only for use in controlling a horse both codes would carry on without missing a beat (no pun intended)

[Messenger]

I know he is a living legend but not even a caution for Brian in R1 at Shep last night

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP020722#SPM02072204

Maybe that is what he was fined for in R2 as he was just as bad

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=SP020722#SPM02072207

[Messenger]

Just listening to Dan saying how the winner of R7 at Ararat today is Kerryn Manning's favourite horse
and although there is certainly not anything excessive about her whip action today, she still hits her favourite
It is all about the 'wrist action' - only wrist action is allowable if drivers are to merely use a 'wrist only flicking motion'

I am sorry for being a stickler but after all their noise HRA, Stewards etc do not seem to give a $*@%

[Messenger]

JB clearly does not know the whip rule as he is joking about Jodi Quinlan dislocating a shoulder to get the favourite home in R4 at Cranbourne

[Messenger]

PP found this table in the British Horse Racing's Whip Consultation Report just released

IMO the General Public opinion (bottom line) is something that we must start taking more notice of

Here is the link but it is on page 82 of a 96 page download

https://media.britishhorseracing.com/bha/whip/Whip_consultation_report.pdf

The link came from this ThoroughbredNEWS article

https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/News/Story/bha-approves-20-recommendations-on-use-of-the-whip-in-british-racing-145081?section=International

Sorry that it is a bit small but this site will not let me attach a larger file. The 'Should not be Used' percentage for the General Public is 81.4%

[aussiebreno]

PP found this table in the British Horse Racing's Whip Consultation Report just released

IMO the General Public opinion (bottom line) is something that we must start taking more notice of

Here is the link but it is on page 82 of a 96 page download

https://media.britishhorseracing.com/bha/whip/Whip_consultation_report.pdf

The link came from this ThoroughbredNEWS article

https://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/News/Story/bha-approves-20-recommendations-on-use-of-the-whip-in-british-racing-145081?section=International

Sorry that it is a bit small but this site will not let me attach a larger file. The 'Should not be Used' percentage for the General Public is 81.4%
Of that 81.4% how many would actually contribute to the racing industry even if the whip was totally banned?

Of that 81.4% how many actually feel strongly about the matter that they would campaign to threaten racings existence, rather than just a passing answer on a survey?

[Messenger]

I hear what you are saying Brendan but it is a disturbing number
PS If someone mounted a campaign, I would support it AS it would not threaten racing's existence - simply force it to change

[aussiebreno]

I hear what you are saying Brendan but it is a disturbing number
PS If someone mounted a campaign, I would support it AS it would not threaten racing's existence - simply force it to change

It is a slippery slope though Kev

[aussiebreno]

Kev - I havent watched the replay so not sure how bad it was but McMullen was fined in the dead heat for whip use. I would argue if you dont get the race taken off you after dead heating they need to rename the shorthand from UW to AW. Clearly its acceptable. Just a rule to line pockets and look good.

[Messenger]

It really is all about looking good for 'supposedly' having a rule. I have asked Vic Chief Steward Brett Day about it several times and used to get replies - not anymore. I have contacted Andrew Kelly, who also used to reply, 3 times in the last 3 months I have sent him more or less the same email which is supporting his 'flicking' rule but cannot even get a reply from him anymore either
I know they don't have to take any notice of us rank and file fans but it really makes me think that any input about how to save the harness industry is totally falling on deaf ears - I think we are doomed.
Brett Day will also not reply to my question as to whether Douglas and Tormey have got off - If it is indeed true, I will be seriously reconsidering my interest

[Messenger]

If you want to see what a joke the NON enforcement of the whip rule has become look at R2 at Melton yesterday (highlighted on PPs blog today)
I don't care how long they rub George out for (probably not long) - it is the fact that he wins by a HFHD and is allowed to keep the race

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX261022#MXC26102205

ps Don't try telling me George is a horse lover, if he thinks he is, then he just does not get it (but he has plenty of company)

[Showgrounds]

If you want to see what a joke the NON enforcement of the whip rule has become look at R2 at Melton yesterday (highlighted on PPs blog today)
I don't care how long they rub George out for (probably not long) - it is the fact that he wins by a HFHD and is allowed to keep the race

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=MX261022#MXC26102205

ps Don't try telling me George is a horse lover, if he thinks he is, then he just does not get it (but he has plenty of company)

I watched the race and thought I was watching a Saturday arvo race from Rocklea, circa 1975. I note the driver is only 18, no doubt he had a big rush of adrenalin when the horse started to sprint down the back. What a joke - the stewards charged young George for "using more than a wrist-flicking action over the concluding stages". NOTHING said at all about what you would have to describe as excessive use of the whip, which was weilded like a cowboy on coke down the back straight.

It was clear rules were broken, perhaps smashed is a better description, yet the horse kept the race. An interesting side note, trainer Rita Burnett was directed to keep the horse on course for three hours for a post-race blood test. I wonder what the stewards line of thinking is.

[Messenger]

Watching Dan's Inter highlights clip

https://www.thetrots.com.au/news/articles/watch-dan-mielicki-celebrates-the-great-moments-of-the-inter-dominion/

It is almost embarrassing watching the whip flogging (I wonder whether they really believed it improved the horses OR they just got carried away in the moment)

Interesting to note it was not so pronounced in the trots

[Messenger]

Gallops, I know
'What are the whip rules in racing? And does a horse feel pain when whipped?'

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/what-are-the-whip-rules-in-racing-and-does-a-horse-feel-pain-when-whipped-20231102-p5eh6z.html

[Messenger]

Gallops, I know
'What are the whip rules in racing? And does a horse feel pain when whipped?'

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/what-are-the-whip-rules-in-racing-and-does-a-horse-feel-pain-when-whipped-20231102-p5eh6z.html

[strong persuader]

I think the following link to an ABC story sums it up pretty well. Horses can feel as much pain from whips as humans, study shows.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-12/study-shows-horses-feel-pain-from-whipping-like-humans/12871496?utm_campaign=newsweb-article-new-share-null&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

[Jasper]

Good story but why would it even be debated in this day and age. Whether you like or not, for a whole range of reasons, including making the sport accessible to a younger generation, the days of using a whip in races are numbered.

During winter I feed four retired pacers and have to walk through mud once I enter their paddock. The horses invariably pull the hay bale out of the wheelbarrow into the mud, despite my protests. I took a whip out to hit the bail for noise to prevent the hay from going into the mud.Soon as these horses, 3 of whom retired 7 plus years ago, wouldn’t come near me and reacted in fear. These are horses who are all over you usually once you enter their space. So not only do they recognise the whip but they remember years on. After a few days, possibly a week they learnt that they were not going to get hit to the point that they resumed their old behaviour re going for the hay. I got them to the point where I could scratch the leader with the whip.

So the effects of whip use are long lasting and they can remember by site what a whip does to them and it will initiate a fear response years later.

[trish]

A horse will twitch when a fly lands on it. Hummmmmmm

[Jasper]

That’s true re fly and twitch. This wasn’t a twitch that I was describing. Community values are changing and the industry needs to change with it re whip, whether we like it or not.

[Messenger]

I don't know about the future of athletics but going by the way the events at Stawell were full of very young people on the weekend (under 21yo's I'm talking) plus how they have incorporated Little Athletics into the program - They have been REALLY SMART

We don't seem to notice people belting horses anymore And the fact that young people find it unacceptable

Have a look at the Heats of the Mildura Cup tonight. Young Abby Sanderson wins heat 1 and uses the whip in a barely noticeable way - the way the new regulations were written
Have a look at heat 2 to have a look at how noticeable the drivers are using their whole arm and belting their horses

The Abby way could be the norm in just a couple of weeks - massive fines and loss of races would see drivers change their style virtually overnight BUT we do not get it!
Just another way that we are failing
If you do not think social license is a thing, just remember that the USA do not have greyhound racing anymore

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=ML020424#MLC02042401

[Jasper]

Couldn’t agree more re Abby Sanderson style. I would also like to see a few whip free races as an experiment because for harness racing to survive this is the future.

Has this ever been tried?

[Messenger]

The drivers will not go along with it. It was even suggested that they could carry a whip 'as a control tool' but 'not to be used in the race' however as far as I know - it has never been trialed

[Jasper]

How many times have you seen a whip used for control in a race? The whips major purpose is to encourage the horse to go/not stop. Maybe in a prelim with a young horse, on rare occasions, where a horse gets tapped to move forward etc a whip is useful. The $$ at the end of the whip is the real reason the drivers prefer to use the whip in my opinion but used the control issue as leverage.

But at the end of the day, as you mentioned, it gets back to the social license issue and you have to wonder how long the community can accept animals being beaten for entertainment/financial gain.

[Messenger]

Yes Daniel, you are neatly stating what 99% of us know but probably only 50% (at best) of participants seem to agree with.

[gutwagon]

I've said it before, I think whip free racing should be phased in gradually . Start with next seasons 2yo's then the following season it's 2 and 3yo's then after that no whips to be used to make hoses go faster. Let them have it for control. You know if this board brings it in it will be a snap decision with zero consultation as is their way !