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Flashing Red
07-06-2011, 12:30 AM
Heard a whisper he's not likely to come down under now. I am very out of touch with things these days, has anyone else heard this or is this just another unfounded harness racing rumour going through the rounds?

Really hope he comes, had a nice mare picked for him :(

Also, I thought I read somewhere that Peppertree had an open day and Rocknroll Heaven was there. I know the owner has stated a number of times he has 15.2hh, but gee he looks small in his pictures, especially next to his groom. Has anyone seen him in the flesh? He is a beautiful horse, beautifully built and what a motor he had - just the mare I am thinking about for him is barely 15hh herself, otherwise his size wouldn't be an issue.

eliteblood
07-06-2011, 12:38 AM
Heard a whisper he's not likely to come down under now. I am very out of touch with things these days, has anyone else heard this or is this just another unfounded harness racing rumour going through the rounds?

Really hope he comes, had a nice mare picked for him :(

Also, I thought I read somewhere that Peppertree had an open day and Rocknroll Heaven was there. I know the owner has stated a number of times he has 15.2hh, but gee he looks small in his pictures, especially next to his groom. Has anyone seen him in the flesh? He is a beautiful horse, beautifully built and what a motor he had - just the mare I am thinking about for him is barely 15hh herself, otherwise his size wouldn't be an issue.

RNR Heaven will be paraded at the Pepper Tree sale on 11 Sept.

triplev123
07-06-2011, 01:19 AM
G'day Flashing,

Maybe Bill & Anthony and Bob have been trying to call...but nobody answers the phone? :p

Flashing Red
07-06-2011, 01:34 AM
Did you call? I actually can't find my phone at the moment! And I need it as an alarm tomorrow! I used it at lunchtime... I hope it didn't fall out of my pocket when I fed my horse this afternoon! I will check the car again :/

Flashing Red
07-06-2011, 01:37 AM
RNR Heaven will be paraded at the Pepper Tree sale on 11 Sept.

Thankyou :)

triplev123
07-06-2011, 03:06 AM
Did you call? I actually can't find my phone at the moment! And I need it as an alarm tomorrow! I used it at lunchtime... I hope it didn't fall out of my pocket when I fed my horse this afternoon! I will check the car again :/


Nah, didn't call you Flashing. Actually I lost your number & whole a swag of others when the girls very kindly decided to play with & ultimately crunch my mobile phone last week & I did not have all the contacts in it saved to the sim card. :( It was like losing an arm. Slowly but surely I'm rebuilding the old phone book.
That bit about nobody answering the phone was me having a bit of a tongue in cheek shot at Luke for not answering the phone at Warwick Stud. He was pretty notorious for it for a while there...although I understand it is not so bad these days. :rolleyes:
Hope you find your phone in short order. Geeze it's a pain in the arse when they go missing or on the fritz. The one that I had before one the girls destroyed was a victim of me cleaning up the girls bathroom. I bent down to pick up a roll of dunny paper that they had tossed on the floor and it fell out of my top pocket and into the toilet. Nasty.

mango
07-06-2011, 04:30 PM
I think Warwick stud might of jumped the gun by putting Rocknroll Hanover on there website.

triplev123
07-06-2011, 04:44 PM
I remember the first time I went to Warwick Stud. Former owner, the late Stan Walker, was wandering around the house paddock catching Chickens with a 6ft length of heavy gauge fencing wire with a hook fashioned on one end. He was a great old fella...and it was a beautiful property, lovely big trees & so on and not a thing out of place.

mightymo
07-06-2011, 10:20 PM
my spies are now saying the deal is off and he will not be coming :(:(

justdoit
07-06-2011, 10:26 PM
I hope they are wrong,
What was the name of the stallion that the Stallion Station advertised a few years ago and he never made the trip? ? ?

triplev123
07-06-2011, 10:31 PM
That was old CAMBEST that you're thinking of Justdoit.
They sent the Transporter around but Alan Leavitt was sitting on the porch polishing his 12 gauge...so they turned around and left. :rolleyes:

mango
07-06-2011, 10:38 PM
my spies are now saying the deal is off and he will not be coming :(:(

Cold feet.

justdoit
07-06-2011, 10:38 PM
Thanks, that was going to wreck a good nights sleep or a good day?.
Don't imagine M.Brown and crew own any guns.

mightymo
07-06-2011, 10:47 PM
Cambest

mango
07-06-2011, 10:49 PM
Thanks, that was going to wreck a good nights sleep or a good day?.
Don't imagine M.Brown and crew own any guns.

Well at least we have his best son RNR Heaven comming out here who has entered quarantine.

triplev123
07-06-2011, 10:55 PM
Thanks, that was going to wreck a good nights sleep or a good day?.
Don't imagine M.Brown and crew own any guns.

Nah, Murray doesn't have need of a gun, he's such a nice fella I doubt that he has any enemies whatsoever.
At the other end of the spectrum, Tom Crouch would probably have need of his own Armoured Personnel Carrier. :eek:

triplev123
07-06-2011, 10:56 PM
my spies are now saying the deal is off and he will not be coming :(:(

Maybe not to Australia anyway.

mango
07-06-2011, 11:00 PM
Maybe the North Island

triplev123
07-06-2011, 11:08 PM
I was thinking the Sth Island actually.

mango
07-06-2011, 11:14 PM
Well i only said the North as i thought you might of had a heads up on new info, not likely for the STH.

mightymo
07-06-2011, 11:18 PM
im pretty sure he wont be travelling "down Under" at all - not Aust, not NZ

mango
07-06-2011, 11:23 PM
I think it's fair to say it was a lot of money they were asking for to stand the horse in the Southern Hemisphere.

triplev123
07-06-2011, 11:35 PM
When it was first touted I did a basic nutting of the figures...and based on the initial outlay plus the interest component either paid or foregone plus the shipping & the incidentals...at the fee they could've reasonably stood the horse for here in Oz they'd have needed somewhere upwards of 200 a season in foal & paying their fees for at least 3 seasons straight before they got themselves into the clear. He has proven himself to be an exceptional sire but that's not good business, at least the way I see it anyway.

Flashing Red
07-06-2011, 11:51 PM
I know things look on the up for the Big M and slots in NJ generally now, but doesn't he stand in Jersey? Its a flailing state, I thought they would have liked the extra revenue for a period where he wouldn't be doing much anyway.

mango
07-07-2011, 09:05 AM
Hi Flashing

They sure did want the extra revenue and i believe it was approx $6mil up front, maybe if they said $6mil over a 6 year period they might of got it. As Triple posted he would have to have at least 200 mare's infoal for 3yrs before they made a cent, not a good business decision if they take it.

Gtrain
07-08-2011, 04:44 PM
Got good mail the big horse WILL be coming after all. I like all heard of the hiccups but word is a deal has been struck and Australias next super sire will be here for season 2011/2012. Could be announced as soon as next week. Exciting times cause I got one I can't wait to put under him!

triplev123
07-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Geeze, what a saga. It makes 'Gone With The Wind' look like a short story. Happy for them, regardless.

mightymo
07-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Amazing - Gtrain is right on the money. A deal is very likely now but on significantly more favourable terms to Aussie investors

mango
07-08-2011, 05:35 PM
More twists and turns than a rollercoaster ride at Disney Land, i hope it's true and favourable terms to Aussie investors would be a first.

triplev123
07-08-2011, 05:48 PM
Luke must have got an Answering Machine installed. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Love Of Courage
07-08-2011, 06:38 PM
Great News ! The more competition at the top end the better. This must help keep all the service fees at a realistic level.

Don Corleone
07-08-2011, 07:28 PM
Excellent news ! This again must help all our breeders.

triplev123
07-08-2011, 07:33 PM
Great News ! The more competition at the top end the better. This must help keep all the service fees at a realistic level.

There's a point. Nice one LOC.

eliteblood
07-08-2011, 08:04 PM
Great News ! The more competition at the top end the better. This must help keep all the service fees at a realistic level.

So far, the top end looks like this

SBSW $13200
RNR Hanover $13200 ???
Bettors Delight $12100
Art Major $12000
Mach Three $10450
RNR Heaven $8800

It will be interesting to see how many mares each of these stallions get this year.

Below these we have Sportswriter, CUF, GFETE, Real Desire, American Ideal, Jeremes Jet, Lis Mara, Shadow Play, Mr Big, Four Starzzz Shark.
What a smorgasbord.

eliteblood
07-08-2011, 08:08 PM
Excellent news ! This again must help all our breeders.

Don,

It helps all our breeders to breed more talented horses BUT does it really help all our breeders where it matters most - financially ?

mango
07-08-2011, 08:22 PM
Hi Eliteblood

There are some nice stallions in the mid range. Do you know CUF and Mister Big's fee this year.

eliteblood
07-08-2011, 08:38 PM
Hi Eliteblood

There are some nice stallions in the mid range. Do you know CUF and Mister Big's fee this year.

I have heard that CUF is dropping to $5500. I don't know about Mister Big.
I wish the studs would announce their fees. It is the middle of July already.

mango
07-08-2011, 08:41 PM
I read in an article where Joe Muscara said that Mister Big might stand in n.s.w even though Alabar have him.

justdoit
07-08-2011, 10:21 PM
Very good news, I will wait for the horse to arrive before counting the chickens.

Termite
07-08-2011, 11:21 PM
Rapt to hear rnrh may be over the line. I believe those involved had given up on the prospect as the kiwi's were farting around the commitment. As far as prices go I understand the following : art major 12k Mach 3 10450 cuf 5500 grin 5500 mister big 4950 art official 4125 jeremes jet 6000 real desire 5500 major in art 4400. All these prices are including gst and subject to alabar discounts ie even art major will be eligible for 20% discount which is effectively a price cut!

eliteblood
07-08-2011, 11:29 PM
Rapt to hear rnrh may be over the line. I believe those involved had given up on the prospect as the kiwi's were farting around the commitment. As far as prices go I understand the following : art major 12k Mach 3 10450 cuf 5500 grin 5500 mister big 4950 art official 4125 jeremes jet 6000 real desire 5500 major in art 4400. All these prices are including gst and subject to alabar discounts ie even art major will be eligible for 20% discount which is effectively a price cut!

Price reductions across the board by Alabar.
What about Shadow Play ?

mango
07-08-2011, 11:33 PM
Mach 3's service fee is attractive and even more so if you have a couple of mare's and can get the discount.

Termite
07-08-2011, 11:35 PM
Can't help you there eb. Only asked those I had an interest/curiosity for. Call them up. All prices are set. What isn't set however is a limit for the BIG GUN- Art Major.

mango
07-08-2011, 11:43 PM
I wonder why they havn't updated there website with the price's and discount structure.

Termite
07-08-2011, 11:58 PM
Mango, I'm sure you've noticed that there seems to be a constant lag btn stud decisions and easy public access on the web. Alabar are the best... On every measure... However I agree that this info should be up. Ironically, their biggest oz competitor in ptf are not much better when it comes to such things.

mango
07-09-2011, 12:01 AM
Peppertree Farm have had there price's up for a month, i suppose they got them up early in the hope of getting early pre booking's.

mango
07-09-2011, 08:04 PM
Now that a lot of studs have dropped there service fee's i wonder if Christian Cullen's fee will be dropped, he is the dearest stallion standing in the Southern Hemishere and he isn't getting the mare's he use to. For him to stay competitive and get a good book of mare's they might have to drop him down to be level with Art Major/Bettor's Delight. This is just my opinion and i'm wondering what people's thought's are on this.

gold-ace
07-10-2011, 02:30 PM
agreed mango, although he still the leading stallion in NZ (leads the all age, 2yr old, 4yr old and 2nd 3yr old).. but i'd say he just can't serve the big numbers

mango
07-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Hi Gold Ace

Yes that is probably true, but i also think he might struggle a little to even get the numbers he has been getting over the last few years due to the fee's of the other stallion's so they might have to drop it to get around there 150 mark.

triplev123
07-10-2011, 04:27 PM
Now that a lot of studs have dropped there service fee's i wonder if Christian Cullen's fee will be dropped, he is the dearest stallion standing in the Southern Hemishere and he isn't getting the mare's he use to. For him to stay competitive and get a good book of mare's they might have to drop him down to be level with Art Major/Bettor's Delight. This is just my opinion and i'm wondering what people's thought's are on this.


G'day Mango,
Unless you're prepared to ship your mare to NZ it won't matter a whole lot what CC's fee is for Oz breeders. Recent experiences have dictated that his transported semen should by rights be sent direct to Wood Coffill's here in Sydney. (for those forum members who are out of towner's...that's an old school Funeral Director, they've been around since Rids was a young bloke and that was back in the days of the Old Testament) They have offices in Ryde, Dulwich Hill and Kingsford...the latter being by far & away the closest to the airport. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Flashing Red
07-10-2011, 11:21 PM
Great news if RNRH is coming!!!! :)

Don Corleone
07-11-2011, 07:51 AM
Don,

It helps all our breeders to breed more talented horses BUT does it really help all our breeders where it matters most - financially ?

Elite
I Know what you mean but to have access to the many an varied stallions we have presently is great for all types of breeders. I have a small share in a couple of T/bred mares and can't believe the discounts/deals that are currently on the go. These deals are given by a phone call or a visit to the 'head' of the stud and a bit of old fashioned negotiation.

triplev123
07-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Hey Don C & Eliteblood,

These days we are spoilt for choice BIG-TIME.
If you really want to frighten yourselves see if you can dig up an old Oz/NZ Sire's Guide from somewhere around 10-15 years ago.Absolute horror story stuff. Makes Stephen King's book 'Pet Sematary' look like a children's betime story.

eliteblood
07-11-2011, 11:15 PM
Hey Don C & Eliteblood,

These days we are spoilt for choice BIG-TIME.
If you really want to frighten yourselves see if you can dig up an old Oz/NZ Sire's Guide from somewhere around 10-15 years ago.Absolute horror story stuff. Makes Stephen King's book 'Pet Sematary' look like a children's betime story.

Yes Triple V, the change in stallion quality is beyond what anyone could have imagined 15 years ago. For example,

2010 NH Leading 2YO Sire
Art Major
Rocknroll Hanover
Bettors Delight

2010 NH Leading 3YO Sire
Rocknroll Hanover
Art Major
Artsplace

2011 NH Leading 2YO Sire (to date)
Art Major
Dragon Again
Rocknroll Hanover

2011 NH Leading 3YO Sire (to date)
Bettors Delight
Rocknroll Hanover
Art Major

Art Major, Bettors Delight and Rocknroll Hanover are the hottest sires in the world at this moment and it is an incredibly exciting time to be breeding. The quality of our product has greatly improved in the last decade as better and better stallions have become available and it can only continue.
I look forward to the day when we are breeding our own world champions and our own stallions so that the tap is shut on the vast sums of money currently leaving Australia and New Zealand in the form of stallion purchases and service fees.

triplev123
07-12-2011, 06:58 PM
Couldn't agree more Eliteblood.
If there's just one thing we MUST do in terms of following in the footsteps of the Monkeys On Horseback is concerned...it is to keenly focus upon the production of our own sires.
This of course MUST go hand in hand with a re-working of the 3yo schedule so that it can assist in this regard. When I was out at Menangle for the NSW Breeders Challenge Finals, a well known NSW identity made the point that we currently do not have a big $ race for 3yo colts over the Mile anywhere in Australia, a race which would afford aspiring stud colts the opportunity to scoot a 1:50 or sub trip. I hadn't considered this aspect up until he mentioned it. He has a VERY good point, IMO.

ITMQ
07-12-2011, 07:43 PM
interesting point triplev, personally i wouldnt know a single stallions times but i understand it would help the marketing, i think they'd have to move a race to a mile rather then build a new one to carry over the prestige of the race... personally i think they should sort out the derby timings first, so maybe we could see a horse win all of them again just like courage did and really make a statement as a 3 yr old...

Love Of Courage
07-12-2011, 07:48 PM
Couldn't agree more Eliteblood.
If there's just one thing we MUST do in terms of following in the footsteps of the Monkeys On Horseback is concerned...it is to keenly focus upon the production of our own sires.
This of course MUST go hand in hand with a re-working of the 3yo schedule so that it can assist in this regard. When I was out at Menangle for the NSW Breeders Challenge Finals, a well known NSW identity made the point that we currently do not have a big $ race for 3yo colts over the Mile anywhere in Australia, a race which would afford aspiring stud colts the opportunity to scoot a 1:50 or sub trip. I hadn't considered this aspect up until he mentioned it. He has a VERY good point, IMO.

Hello VVV,

What an excellent point ! With the talk regarding the limited gene pool in the US, which is one of the reasons Christian Cullen dipped his hoof in the water over there, I think this is a great idea. If we want to have an Australasian stallion serve in the US a fast time next to their name is an absolute must. Also being by a US sire like Art Major would not hurt either.

Would love to see Menagle have a version of the Little Brown Jug with heats and final on the same day. Little Brown Jug winners seem to have done pretty well down under. To me a win in this race proves you have the speed & the stamina. Also it would not hurt the chances of getting a good book of mares for this racewinning colt.

ITMQ
07-12-2011, 07:52 PM
there wont be an australian/new zealand sire to ever make it as a top line horse in the US in my life time

eliteblood
07-12-2011, 08:10 PM
there wont be an australian/new zealand sire to ever make it as a top line horse in the US in my life time

You are probably right. I am more interested in australian/new zealand colts being held in the same regard locally as those from the northern hemisphere and competing with them as sire prospects down here. Hopefully you will see a shift in that regard during your lifetime.
Think of the additional value that a well bred yearling colt would have.
Think of the additional money circulating throughout our industry as opposed to being lost to the USA. How much money was "lost" to our industry in securing RNR Hanover to stand down here? How much money was lost to our industry through services to SBSW last year ?

Love Of Courage
07-12-2011, 08:12 PM
So You Think !

A very well performed Kiwi Bred - Aussie raced thoroughbred. If he can do well in Europe he would prove the point that it can be done. Being by the English stallion High Chaparral, and with an excellent record has not hurt his chances of being a shuttle stallion. At least the new owners paid a lot of money believing that he would be a success. Seems the thoroughbred people overseas acknowledge that we can breed a good horse or two.

For a Aussie / Kiwi stallion standardbred to be given a chance in the US they must have a very fast time next to their name. Also being by a US sire would be almost essential. They would also need to go over in their prime to show that they can handle US conditions. All it would take would be one stallion to get the ball rolling !

Love Of Courage
07-12-2011, 08:32 PM
there wont be an australian/new zealand sire to ever make it as a top line horse in the US in my life time

You mention Courage Under Fire ITMQ, someone in the US tried to by Courage for 3 million as a 3 year old. With his speed and stamina he could have scorched around a few of those US tracks.

His only fault from what I have heard is that his lack of size would have gone against him with a few breeders.

triplev123
07-12-2011, 08:38 PM
there wont be an australian/new zealand sire to ever make it as a top line horse in the US in my life time

I think for the foreseeable future you're right on the money there ITMQ...but in saying that I'm really not that concerned about Oz bred & performed sires going over to the US & CAN to try and make their name so much as I'd just dearly love to see the best of the Oz bred & performed sire prospects getting their chances at stud here in Oz...and in doing so greatly restrict to perhaps one day verging on ceasing the annual flow of $$$ out of Oz and into the pockets of US syndicates in exchange for access to their latest siring prospects. Once I used to think that was a pipedream. These days however it is so close to becoming a reality that I can damned near taste it.

triplev123
07-12-2011, 08:59 PM
Maybe a son of this colt? He goes Ok. :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEZkgZGt91c&feature=player_embedded

nat
07-13-2011, 12:07 AM
We will never have a Northern Hemisphere rated stallion they just don't rate our horses in that light. We have plenty of good local stallions worth a go but on that we have to patronize them, how many import stallions would tick all the boxes in your eyes for our top level racing when you really look at them?

triplev123
07-13-2011, 05:13 AM
G'day Nat,

I'm not at all concerned if US & CAN Breeders happen to rate Southern Hemisphere bred sire prospects or they do not.
I'm more interested in the best of our 2yo and 3yo colts having the opportunity to prove their comparitive worth by racing for good $$$ over the Mile on our tracks and under our conditions.
I wouldn't say we have plenty of local breds that are worth a go, at least not to this point in time anyway. In due course however, with the quality of sires available to us now, that is a situation which will most definitely change.

On this general subject, the Breeder duplicity that exists here is verging upon inexplicable.
The very thing that they demand of the imported US/CAN bred sires, i.e. superior juvenile performance (& by that I mean top end 2yo & 3yo wins) is that which they do not demand of our own homebred sires.
Instead they paradoxically seem to prefer proven Aged performers, successful in the ID ranks & so on, horses which have been successful in that which is basically the equivalent to the Aged ranks in the Northern Hemisphere. :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: :confused:
Added to this is the rather curious fact that, in turn, imported US/CAN bred sires that did not race particularly successfully at 2yrs & 3yrs but were instead Aged performers...are invariably viewed by so many of those very same Breeders with quite significant suspicion.

nat
07-13-2011, 10:56 AM
Hey Triplev123

Definitely not just our juvenile racing need the right opportunities our whole racing calendar needs to be brought into line the one thing those yank have over us their horses have every opportunity to earn the big dollar and race the prestige events our states and countries bodies to often get into a pissing competition and cut each others throat. events like Breeders Crown, The Harness Jewels, Bathurst Gold Crown and Breeders Challenge are helping drive the interest in breeding and racing 2yld-3yld and 4yld.

triplev123
07-13-2011, 03:40 PM
G'day Nat,
That 3yo colts having no opportunity to step it out over the Mile in an Open Age Classic format really spun my head.
I have to confess to not having even considered the lack of such a race as being of any great importance up until it was mentioned to me at Menangle. Couched in the terms that it was to me then and in keeping with the general thrust of this thread however, it is vitally important that the situation be rectified.
It would be an extremely productive long-term move for the Australian Breeding Industry should for instance the fellas with the fastest track in the Southern Hemisphere, the NSWHRC and the wonderful Menangle , either institute a race or adapt an existing race which would afford the aspiring 3yo stud colts the opportunity to post marks down around or sub 1:50. As part of all that also I'm still very keen on the idea of both a 2yo & 3yo Grand Circuit racing in conjunction with the Aged horses...or at the very least a very clearly and very well defined, thoughtfully programmed 3yo Grand Circuit.

Greg Hando
07-14-2011, 03:38 AM
Make the Derby a true classic heats and final over the mile and give the race the true recognition it so rightly deserves our family has bred i think it is up to 6 or 7 Derby winers now incl 2 on the one day trotter's as well and both by the same sire Dad tells me their is no prouder feeling than to win a Derby as it used to be the pinnacle aside from the Inter he reckons it's a bigger thrill than breeding an Inter winner. For each state i feel the Derby has lost it's prestige in the latter years

smithy
07-14-2011, 05:43 PM
personally i want a derby win over any other race... but i disagree over the distance, have it over 2600-2800m and have the best horse standing at the end, not the best drawn

triplev123
07-14-2011, 09:57 PM
Flat out pressure on all the way, lead from gate to wire Mile racing for a 3yo colt is going to be a far greater test of his stamina than any 2600-2800m could ever be.

nat
07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
There needs to be a balance and to suit lets just say we don't run the sprint events at Penrith we need racing over the sprint trip to see who is the fastest and over the derby distance 2300 or more if we key hole our juvenile events we wile breed for type and then the stayer would go by the wayside. In saying that I have reservations that Sushi Sushi would be so dominant if we just raced the mile, 2yld racing to me should be over the sprint trip and then 3yld is a graduation year where they branch out over the distance.

Greg Hando
07-15-2011, 12:02 AM
There needs to be a balance and to suit lets just say we don't run the sprint events at Penrith we need racing over the sprint trip to see who is the fastest and over the derby distance 2300 or more if we key hole our juvenile events we wile breed for type and then the stayer would go by the wayside. In saying that I have reservations that Sushi Sushi would be so dominant if we just raced the mile, 2yld racing to me should be over the sprint trip and then 3yld is a graduation year where they branch out over the distance.
Your part about stayers would go by the way side .A good sprinter has to be able to stay to hold the high speed for the sprint races case in point Smoken Up, Blacks a Fake and Karloo Mick all tough and can run a quick mile when needed ITMQ can stay to a lesser extent but finishes best with a sit over the longer journey but over the mile a true sprint horse

smithy
07-15-2011, 12:29 AM
Flat out pressure on all the way, lead from gate to wire Mile racing for a 3yo colt is going to be a far greater test of his stamina than any 2600-2800m could ever be.

yeah maybe, but if a good horse draws to lead over a mile good luck even getting into the race... over a distance they have to have a breather at some point and that is when a poorly drawn horse can get into the race ie sushi sushi declared royal verdict on in the vic derby during a 46 lead time

soooo pretty much i mean a long distance not as a stamina test but as a suitable distance for good horses to be put into the race

nat
07-15-2011, 03:38 AM
Hi winston

Three exceptional horses that took more than several year ofconditioning to run their personal bests and off the top of my head didnt get 2yld or 3yld of the year between them ( I stand to be corrected LOL), look at it this way a juvenile that cannot sprint early 2 wasted and costly years what happens to them the knackery not many super star juviniles make it to the big show look how thoroughbred are they breed for sprinter and stayers nearly two different industries in their programming to the firstrace

mango
07-15-2011, 09:03 AM
There needs to be a balance and to suit lets just say we don't run the sprint events at Penrith we need racing over the sprint trip to see who is the fastest and over the derby distance 2300 or more if we key hole our juvenile events we wile breed for type and then the stayer would go by the wayside. In saying that I have reservations that Sushi Sushi would be so dominant if we just raced the mile, 2yld racing to me should be over the sprint trip and then 3yld is a graduation year where they branch out over the distance.

Hi Nat

I agree with you there, myself i would like to see more racing for 3yr old's over the 2300m at Menangle. You often see in N.Z that there 3yr old's race over the longer trip more than our's.

triplev123
07-15-2011, 11:23 AM
yeah maybe, but if a good horse draws to lead over a mile good luck even getting into the race... over a distance they have to have a breather at some point and that is when a poorly drawn horse can get into the race ie sushi sushi declared royal verdict on in the vic derby during a 46 lead time

soooo pretty much i mean a long distance not as a stamina test but as a suitable distance for good horses to be put into the race

Fair enough. It all depends on the track. That's why I suggested earlier that any such race should obviously go forward at Menangle. There is a BIG difference between Menangle and Melton in terms of the way the barriers play.
Menangle is wide open spaces 10 across the front 1400m & if you have the required early speed & want to get forward at the start from out wide then you can do so. Barrier draws, especially inside slots, are nowhere near as much of an advantage there as they are at other smaller tracks.
In fact, having only fairly recently focussed on the comparitive waste of time that conducting PBD sex races out there is, drawing 1-2-3 is actually a statistical disadvantage...it's getting off the topic by a fair bit but I have found that drawing any horse, let alone the fillies/mares being drawn to the inside posts against their male counterparts, actually handicaps them rather than giving them a 'lift'.
On the other hand, Melton is a narrow track with 6 across the front with trailers off the back line. Draw the front from 4 and inside and Bob's your Uncle, drawn outside of the front 5-6 or off the back & especially 8-9-10..then you're in the hands of the Philistines...but, and again as an aside, a PBD sex condition down there actually achieves what it was designed to achieve.
A Big $ Mile race for 3yo colts, 10 across the front at Menangle, is exactly what the Doctor ordered if we're looking to go down the road of producing our own locally bred Sires.
No point whatsoever in continuing to deny them the opportunity of racing over the Mile in a prestige event & putting a genuine speed badge against their name...by way of continuing to race them over distances of 2300m etc.
I'm not saying dispense with the longer events, rather I'm saying that we should give them at least ONE opportunity to rip over the mile and take a speed badge that is at least some way comparable to that worn by their US/CAN bred counterparts/competition. Currently, this is not possible.

triplev123
07-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Hi Nat

I agree with you there, myself i would like to see more racing for 3yr old's over the 2300m at Menangle. You often see in N.Z that there 3yr old's race over the longer trip more than our's.

G'day Mango,

I've got to come back to the whole point of sending them over the Mile at Menangle in the first place. How exactly does more 2300m racing for 3yo colts in any way serve to highlight, as compared to their Nthn Hemisphere counterparts, the lot of the locally bred 3yo colt aspiring to a subsequent Stud career? There are of course any number of opportunities for 3yo colts to race over distances in excess of 1 Mile in the Southern Hemisphere, there are any number of big $ Group 1 events.
To my knowledge there is not so much as a single big $ Mile race that would allow those same 3yo colts to earn a speed badge around 1:50 or perhaps sub and I am absolutely certain the best of our 3yo colts could post such times. We've got big $ racing over the Mile for 2yos (APG), for 4yos (Chariots, Taylor Mile etc) and for Aged horses (Miracle Mile)...but where is the opportunity for the 3yos?

Gtrain
07-15-2011, 01:13 PM
The Derbys position on the harness racing mantle place has been shaky for a long while. IMO it fell off and shattered about 10 years ago but I can understand how some peoples opinions differ. I can see clearly how a mile race for 3 yo could greatly benefit the season. Mile racing at the top end always throws up an interesting race especially at Menangle. It is not an option though to run a derby over a mile because to me that goes against what a derby is about. While the derbys need desperate CPR I wouldn't want to be the director bringing them back to a mile. Create an entire new race ala Len Smith and watch the positive feedback roll in. Don't curse it with the derby name!

smithy
07-15-2011, 02:07 PM
victoria derby, great northern derby still have the most prestige of any races for 3 yr olds easily!

a fast mile on its own is meaningless, the little brown jug isn't just the time on its own, its that they raced in against the absolute company best several times in one day... to build something like that in aussie would need prizemoney around half a mill plus heat prizemoney

mango
07-15-2011, 04:52 PM
Hey Triple

I was meaning mid wk at Menangle i went off track a bit. Sometime's mile racing can be boring but i do agree with you a big $$$$ race for 3yr old's over the mile would be good.

triplev123
07-15-2011, 08:22 PM
You're just getting old Mango. It happens to the best of us.
Check out all of the snow on the roof of Eliteblood for an excellent example thereof and don't get me started on how old looking BPH has gotten these days. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

eliteblood
07-15-2011, 08:38 PM
You're just getting old Mango. It happens to the best of us.
Check out all of the snow on the roof of Eliteblood for an excellent example thereof and don't get me started on how old looking BPH has gotten these days. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That's very nasty TRipleV. I turned over another year yesterday in fact.
Actually, I'm looking forward to the forties :D

eliteblood
07-15-2011, 08:57 PM
Make the Derby a true classic heats and final over the mile and give the race the true recognition it so rightly deserves our family has bred i think it is up to 6 or 7 Derby winers now incl 2 on the one day trotter's as well and both by the same sire Dad tells me their is no prouder feeling than to win a Derby as it used to be the pinnacle aside from the Inter he reckons it's a bigger thrill than breeding an Inter winner. For each state i feel the Derby has lost it's prestige in the latter years

Hi Winston,

As a breeder I regard breeding an Inter Dominion winner as a much bigger prize then a derby winner

Termite
07-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Just to return to the subject of this post, it is about a week since we had any news on rnr hanover and his status re standing in australia. Can anyone update details on Warwick stud, stud fee,etc.

Greg Hando
07-16-2011, 12:26 AM
Hi Winston,

As a breeder I regard breeding an Inter Dominion winner as a much bigger prize then a derby winner

Yes Termite i would to if it was a true Inter not like the last few years no 3 heats and final i like the old format you found the best over the 3 journey's and the cream rose to the top

mango
07-16-2011, 08:18 AM
You're just getting old Mango. It happens to the best of us.
Check out all of the snow on the roof of Eliteblood for an excellent example thereof and don't get me started on how old looking BPH has gotten these days. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yeah tell me about it Triple i'll be hitting the mid 30's next year but somehow i don't think i'll catch you lmao.

Flashing Red
07-18-2011, 05:54 PM
Flat out pressure on all the way, lead from gate to wire Mile racing for a 3yo colt is going to be a far greater test of his stamina than any 2600-2800m could ever be.

A true run 2 mile race (ie NZ Cup) IMHO would be a much tougher test of stamina than, for example, the 1:48 mile Smoken Up run at Menangle. Of course I'm a little biased, but I think I have a point. The gallopers in the Newmarket are flat to the board the whole 1000m - yet I regard a 3200m Melbourne Cup a tougher test of stamina despite the first mile almost always being a dawdle! :)

Greg Hando
07-22-2011, 03:52 PM
Just spoke to someone who has seen RNH and they said he would be lucky to make 15h how big is he supposed to be

mango
07-22-2011, 04:18 PM
RNR Heaven is 15.2h on Peppertree's website and Hanover is 15.3h.

smithy
07-22-2011, 04:51 PM
RNR Heaven is 15.2h on Peppertree's website and Hanover is 15.3h.

almost 100% thats incorrect...we are sending a mare to him because hes smaller then RNRH

mango
07-22-2011, 05:07 PM
He Smithy

I'm just going of the Peppertree Farm website, in a post about 6wks ago i said the horse was 15h or a fraction bigger. Ring Rob and ask him and see what he say's and let us know.