Total removal of 2yo racing for the benefit of the industry

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

The problem about hindsight is if you make what hindsight suggests would've been the 'wise' choice at the time then you miss all the big money races - which hurts - but obviously your horse doesn't break down either and yes it gets given the time it needs to develop but because it didn't break down you are left thinking what might have been.

It is like that movie 'sliding doors' - you keep going and it breaks down, but you stop and then you see horses you were running against are starting to have success in the big races and you think hmmm could that have been us.

I will always err on the side of resting them. I had a couple of nice 2yo's this season one whom in particular we were aiming at the crown, he showed signs he would be a better horse if given time in the paddock instead of being pushed right now, and even though we thought we would've been competitive in the big 2yo races we decided to pull up stumps and give him a few months in the paddock. I think we have done the right thing by the horse, but it would be a much easier decision if the 2yo races were worth 150k instead of 300k

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiebreno

If not for a perfect drive from B Trembath Mindarie Priddy wins the Vic Sires and not a word is spoken about her ill health. I will back the judgement of David and Lisa Miles in this case. Miles has a lot of experience and history, and has trained a lot of good horses and one would assume he had made mistakes and learnt from them down the track. Did you get on the phone to them and tell them to scratch and spell pre Vicbred final?

I must say I was a little wary starting this thread up again on the back of the Miles misfortune but it seemed to me a classic scenario for thrashing out the issue. I know David is a big boy and would have had opinions on the topic before and since Saturday. Only he and Lisa could tell us if there is even a 1% chance they might have missed something but it goes without saying they would always have the welfare of their champion filly in mind . As for phoning them, you're just being silly - that would be like me sticking my beak into your marital affairs!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danno

Your dead right Brenno, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but so too is experience and history, because they help us ( if we take heed of the lessons ) to not continually make the same mistakes.
The thing that annoys me in this particular issue is that when it comes to 2yos, you have very few opportunities to bounce back from the damage that comes from mistakes when trying to make 2yo race horses out of horses that are not forward enough to do so. More often than not the damage is done and it's more often than not permanent.

People who have trained horses and learned from mistakes ( often called hindsight Brenno) will tell you the dangers are real, people who have a product to sell may tell you what they need to tell you in order to sell the product.....and if you get caught, that would be seen from the benefit of hindsight too mighten it?

Sometimes people need to make their own mistakes, it just annoys me when it's the horse that is the one that suffers the most.

cheers,
Dan

[VVV] I understand she bled Dan...you can hardly blame David and Lisa for that. Hindsight has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.
EIPH is almost always a cumulative issue & so with the 20/20 benefit of that...perhaps a prior disapointing peformance or two by the filly suggested she had previously done so, as in bled,...only this time around it was such that the evidence of same became visible.
Maybe she could have been scoped straight after she returned her first sub par effort?
At the time, did the minds of anyone else here immediately go to her possibly having bled?
I'd certainly not have immediately thought of that. Anyone else?
Even if it was identified, what could they have done about it anyway? Our rules don't allow for the use of Lasix, Aicar etc. Hindsight indeed.
On a related note, EIPH is by far and away the single biggest animal welfare issue both Horse Racing codes could seek to address...and only for the fact that 8 or 9 times out of 10 it remains all but hidden (as in the aspirated blood remains in the lungs/lower airways as opposed to the upper airways/nostrils) we'd have the RSPCA and PETA on our case on a daily basis.
On a further related note, there's a large body of evidence in a few studies that I've read to suggest horses that race up on the enginel/hot/pull hard are many times more likely to experience EIPH issues than their more relaxed counterparts.
Is it a coincidence that this particular filly seemed to race pretty hot, especially so in her initial starts? Did that contribute to and ultimately cause her to bleed? Perhaps...perhaps not. Food for thought.
One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.
I'd like to have one that was not forward enough to race who nevertheless at her 1st & 2nd lifetime starts went within a Bee's todger of becoming the fastest 2yo filly ever in the Southern Hemisphere. Making her the Poster Child for lets ban 2yo racing is a pretty fair old stretch, IMO.

Jamie,
my comments were more generic about "hindsight" than just the issue with this filly on this occasion, and my comments were also about learning from experience rather than ignoring the experience and calling it "luck" or "bad luck".

I have had a couple of bleeders in my time, one that gave classic warning signs and another that gave NONE, so I was not having a shot at the Miles' or anyone else for that matter, simply making the point that history and experience should not be ignored, allowing "hindsight" to be used as an excuse for failure.

I think we would all like to have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, but also not be looking to use it as an excuse.

[
Quote:

QUOTE]One thing's for certain, NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo.

[/QUOTE]

as usual Jamie, that is an absolute ripper of a totally baseless statement, I'd be interested to see what science this statement is supported by.

Cheers,
Dan

Thanks for the debate men. Not being a horseman, I am always interested in hearing the viewpoint of those that are. Is bute banned out here too? One article I read mentioned that it and lasix are the only medications allowed in a racing horses bloodstream in the US and suggested bute causes "thinner" blood with some suggestion that the problem of EIPH is exacerbated by thinner blood. I know that a 2yo would not be on bute and do appreciate that Mindara's bleed is probably a cruel blow that just came out of left field. Danno does have a point however VVVV, in that we cannot say NONE of it has anything at all to do with racing her as a 2yo - being a smart alec here but I can't imagine her bleeding out in the paddock

Fellas, a lack of effort there on my part for not properly putting my comment across.
The point I was trying to make was...Is there a higher instance of 2yos bleeding as compared to older, more mature horses? Obviously not and therefore it follows that her age or lackthereof has had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to her. Mutually exclusive.

Without wanting to buy into the argument...

I’m the trainer. I'm very good at what I do. I do it for a living. Not a pastime or hobby, but a living. If it’s forced upon me or not, I do the very best for the people that support me (the owners) and the horse. That means tipping the horse out for while or whatever

I'm the owner. Been trying my whole life to get the fast one. I got the best one going around and there’s a $300k race staring me in face.

Horse is 100% OK.

What do I do?

What do I do?

Ask the trainer what he would do if he was the owner ;)