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Thread: New Handicapping system for NSW (3mth trial)

  1. #11
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Kevin O'Donoghue
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    NZ are an amazing country. That recent TV ad for the rugby that highlights the fact that they only have a pop of 4.5M and yet they take on the United Kingdom does not really go far enough
    NZ are World class competitors in Rugby, Cricket, Netball, Hockey, Sailing .... They have had their share of top Olympic performers, cyclists, jockeys, .....
    They are fantastic horse breeders but with racing having to share such a small population with all of the above pursuits, they only have about 4 harness meets a week.
    Horses to NZ are like our iron ore. We don't just produce enough for our needs, it is our strength so it is an export industry

    I know you guys all know that - I am just sucking up to Teecee
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  2. #12
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showgrounds View Post
    I have a theory as to why the best horses seem to win.

    It's because they are better! Have a look at Partyon's record, Pat. She won the Harness Jewells and Breeders Crown as a 2yo as well as the NSW Oaks and NZ Northern Oaks. Despite her brilliant record, it would be fair to say nobody would argue that she is a better filly than Spanish Armada. More the Better, NZ 2yo Colt of the year but has not gone on as well as 3yo as Ultimate Machete (earlier in the season) or Vincent. With another Derby and Oaks up for grabs, is it better for the struggling QLD harness racing industry to attract horse of their calibre to boost the image of its premier carnival?

    Successful NZ juveniles get penalized by their handicapping system. They end up staying in NZ racing in a limited number of open class races or going to Australia or the US.

    So, enlighten me. What is to be gained by changing our handicapping system(s) to the advantage of lesser horses?

    G'day Trevor, mate if you need enlightening, it's a very simple answer .....betting turnover
    Last edited by Messenger; 07-03-2017 at 12:44 AM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Stallion Showgrounds is just really nice Showgrounds is just really nice
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    Thanks for your enlightened opinion

    As I have said before, if its all about turnover then get rid of the horses for the pokies or flies crawling up the wall.

    Pardon my struggling with your concept, but I am a horseperson first and foremost. I do no burn my money on the punt

  4. #14
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
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    Trevor, I dont thank you for sharing your theory, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I am also aware of the horses racing records. The gist of my posts on this issue has been consistent for quite some time in this forum and other media so I wont go into that again but most of those posts are in some way connected to the issue I raised. Post #4 is a prime example. Regarding the successful NZ juveniles getting penalized by the NZ handicapping system, get over it. That is their problem-what has that got to do with Australian harness racing? You expect people to feel sorry for someone who has a horse that has won $500k in NZ and cant win no more there due to a system that doesn't help them win another $500k ?

    No doubt the Queensland racing industry will forever be in Harness racing NZ's debt for the privilege of having some of their successful juveniles and others to come over here to rescue them from poverty ,but most importantly boost their image. I also have no doubt that the owners/trainers of these said NZ horses have at heart the best interests of the QLD racing industry and the local participants. I bet they even hand out bags of lollies to the kids. Now that's sarcasm.

    I will also answer your other question and hope that you are enlightened. What is to be gained by the Australian harness racing industry and its participants by allowing successful overseas horses to come here and continually suck the lifeblood out of the local industry and by using the excuse that they are being penalised out of existence in their own country and therefore they should get a leg up in this country via a weak handicapping system to enable them to win more local money?

  5. #15
    Senior Member Stallion Showgrounds is just really nice Showgrounds is just really nice
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    Take a powder Pat.

    Please. No sarcasm, just an (edited) response to a pretty ordinary (edited) response I got.

    OK, so you're a protectionist. Hope you didn't break too many knuckles when Mr Feelgood won the Inter a few years ago. Last time I checked at was free trade between Australia and NZ.

  6. #16
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
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    Trevor, Mr Feelgood had to jump a few hoops before racing here but did start at the highest level from memory with no excuses and not as a 2/3 yo with $500k in his kick. So he never got any free kicks unlike the current crop and that is how it should be. He also had the United states factor and Brown Jug win going for him which created intrigue.He also attracted a lot of interest because he was a genuine star. That is the type of horse who brings in crowds so a different kettle of fish altogether.

    I have owned a few NZ horses myself which takes away the protectionist angle, but I wont support what has been going on for a couple of years at least now in relation to what the discussion has been about.

    Free trade does not mean a couple of bites at the cherry for racehorses in my opinion. And if you like free trade so much , send over a half a dozen of your best all blacks to play for the wallabies then and see how that goes down.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Stallion Showgrounds is just really nice Showgrounds is just really nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Jate View Post
    Trevor, Mr Feelgood had to jump a few hoops before racing here but did start at the highest level from memory with no excuses and not as a 2/3 yo with $500k in his kick. So he never got any free kicks unlike the current crop and that is how it should be. He also had the United states factor and Brown Jug win going for him which created intrigue.He also attracted a lot of interest because he was a genuine star. That is the type of horse who brings in crowds so a different kettle of fish altogether.

    I have owned a few NZ horses myself which takes away the protectionist angle, but I wont support what has been going on for a couple of years at least now in relation to what the discussion has been about.

    Free trade does not mean a couple of bites at the cherry for racehorses in my opinion. And if you like free trade so much , send over a half a dozen of your best all blacks to play for the wallabies then and see how that goes down.
    "My" All Blacks?

    Mate, I have just spent an enjoyable couple of hours celebrating the Mighty Saints win over Fremantle. Played in Perth, where most of the standarbreds neigh with a funny accent.

    I don't get what you mean by horses having a "couple of bites at the cherry". How is that so?

    And, mate, I only ever owned Aussie bred horses. I grew up watching people burning their savings on too many high priced duds coming from NZ. It was always an ambition of mine to sell a Kiwi a horse for 100 grand only for it to be a dud. Karma. Those times, thankfully, have gone. Thanks to Sky Channel and the internet if you buy a dud from there these days, there is only yourself to blame.

    And it's gotta be good for Australian Breeders that Purdon and other NZ trainers and owners are paying good money for our yearlings. It goes some (small) way to offsetting the trade from NZ.

    And, Pat, this forum should not be taken as a test of your knowledge. Each person is entitled to their own opinion, whether you (and others) agree or not. I haven't noticed too many posters on it; it reads sometimes like a social chat. If some of the rancid stuff put my way recently because, presumably, somebody doesn't like my alternative view is consistent with the mindset of other forum members then I understand.

    Anyway Pat, its too late so let's call it a night. I have run out of wisdom.
    Last edited by Messenger; 07-03-2017 at 12:42 PM.

  8. #18
    aussiebreno
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    If an Australian horse had won the same amount of races and prizemoney as Partyon, The More The Better etc they would have been able to go in those races as well. This isn't giving Kiwis a leg up or a double dip...

  9. #19
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
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    My knowledge is nothing compared to a fair few people on this forum. But if a NZ horse runs 2nd in the Northern Derby race for example at Auckland and then can actually come over here and enter in the very similar races in NSW, QLD, Tas and Victoria with no fear of any penalty, wins, $won etc then that is double dipping all day every day. Provide me with the facts on why my statement isnt true, prove me wrong and then I will shut up.
    An Australian horse is entitled to enter any race they are selected for or qualified for in Australia, they should not need to win $500k to get entry into a local race. We are are talking about overseas horses in this subject and what they are being allowed to do. I pointed out the major differential in the these two QLD races even supplying a field average of $won. In case anyone hadn't noticed State bodies are slowly bringing in rules to combat this due to complaints. So what are you going to do then? Unfortunately the state bodies are not doing enough.

    No other country would allow this in any sport, they would be handicapped that much that they would have to be exceptional to win ala Lazarus or similar. So why are they getting a free kick here?

    As for posts, my understanding is that any one person can give their view on any harness racing matter, that is what it is all about. If someone does not like a post then they have the right of reply or ignore it. Our gallant moderators' sort out the rest.

    Kev, I have enjoyed a lot of good times with maoris' and pakihas over the years but I will give you some free advice ....never suck up to a kiwi

  10. #20
    aussiebreno
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan of Jate View Post
    My knowledge is nothing compared to a fair few people on this forum. But if a NZ horse runs 2nd in the Northern Derby race for example at Auckland and then can actually come over here and enter in the very similar races in NSW, QLD, Tas and Victoria with no fear of any penalty, wins, $won etc then that is double dipping all day every day. Provide me with the facts on why my statement isnt true, prove me wrong and then I will shut up.
    An Australian horse is entitled to enter any race they are selected for or qualified for in Australia, they should not need to win $500k to get entry into a local race. We are are talking about overseas horses in this subject and what they are being allowed to do. I pointed out the major differential in the these two QLD races even supplying a field average of $won. In case anyone hadn't noticed State bodies are slowly bringing in rules to combat this due to complaints. So what are you going to do then? Unfortunately the state bodies are not doing enough.

    No other country would allow this in any sport, they would be handicapped that much that they would have to be exceptional to win ala Lazarus or similar. So why are they getting a free kick here?

    As for posts, my understanding is that any one person can give their view on any harness racing matter, that is what it is all about. If someone does not like a post then they have the right of reply or ignore it. Our gallant moderators' sort out the rest.

    Kev, I have enjoyed a lot of good times with maoris' and pakihas over the years but I will give you some free advice ....never suck up to a kiwi
    A horse could have run 2nd in the NSW, Vic, SA, WA Derby and headed to the QLD Derby etc.
    A horse can win 10 on end at Menangle and then go to QLD for those races.
    Its the same rules for everybody. We aren't barring 10 win Aussies from races but letting 10 win Kiwis in races. We aren't barring $500K Aussies from races but allowing $500K Kiwis into races. It is the same rules to ascertain what they are graded.

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