Roll With Joe
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34

Thread: New sires

  1. #1
    Senior Member 4YO KTQ will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Katie Howlett
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    346
    Horses
    Jack Mac,Sunnys Little Whiz, 3Bears

    New sires

    What do you all think of the new sires that are going to stand in Australia this season; Betting Line, Always B Miki, Fly Like An Eagle, Creatine etc

    I personally look for a stallion that not only has an impeccable race record but a good maternal line as well, with brilliant siblings and winners right the way through.
    Rocknroll Heaven ticked that box a couple years ago and as such, is doing a pretty good job here. How will the aforementioned (and I'm sure I've missed a tonne) compare?
    Last edited by KTQ; 08-02-2017 at 09:17 AM.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    6,095
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    That is a big project Katie, I will begin with Betting Line tonight who is a huge project in himself. We all know about Bettors Delight so like you I am interested in his maternal line

    I have not paid for any info from the USTA so although long this post is not comprehensive.
    Not being a big follower of US harness racing there are probably big names other than those I have listed which more ardent followers would know (and possibly add for us)

    Of course you will find his pedigree everywhere but I have attached a pdf screenshot at the bottom of the post which will give you 5gens using Pedigree Partner just for those who like Colour Crosses (I hope it is clear enough)

    Here is a link to his pretty impressive credentials/race history which includes the Little Brown Jug and fastest 3yo of his year

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Histor...ntClass&AD=ASC

    Here is the USTA link for his dam and 2nd dam (which has his basic stats up the top too)

    http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=812

    Both producers and racemares themselves with 1st dam Heather's Western having won a Gp3 as a 2yo and 3yo (see link below) Betting Line is the standout of their progeny (only Millionaire)

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Histor...rseID=10057991

    I then used the fantastic classicfamilies again to open all the little boxes (100's ?) which lists all the notable descendants of his 6th dam Laura Hanover which is probably going back a bit far considering this is the prolific U1 Family but I thought it interesting that her 3 serious producing progeny are all full sisters by Nibble Hanover thus making the sisters of his 5th dam Miss Laura more interesting in my eyes (and the reason why I went back to his 6th dam)

    You can too by using the following link, or just keep reading

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descen...rseID=10010734

    The strongest arm of the family is the Beryl Hanover arm (full sis to BL's 5th dam) where we find standouts:
    $3.5m winning mare Anndrovette
    $2.3m winner and sire Dragon Again
    Super sire Bret Hanover

    Next strongest arm is the Odella Hanover arm (full sis to BL's 5th dam)
    sire Western Terror
    and his near on 2M winning full bro If I Can Dream
    NZ sire Sir Dalrae
    plus a few other millionaires

    Betting Line's 5th dam Miss Bullet is the other strong line of the family and although he is the real standout, without going to the lengths I have, if you open this link for his 3rd dam Marfa Newton and open the four + boxes you will see that this arm could prove very strong

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descen...rseID=10038113

    I might have preferred him to belong to the Beryl Hanover arm but nobody would be surprised to see him cut it as a stallion and everybody wants Bettors!

    One more classicfamilies link - just look at who the U1 family have produced

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Family...meGroup&AD=ASC

    and here is the pdf for Betting Line's ped in colour (I hope)
    Attached Files
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  3. #3
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Pat O'Boyle
    Posts
    435
    Beautifully done Kev. I know Alabar are totally chuffed they got Always B Miki especially as he is regarded as the fastest horse ever. Getting some good new stallions in as some of the old stagers unfortunately have passed away recently.

  4. #4
    Senior Member 4YO KTQ will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Katie Howlett
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    346
    Horses
    Jack Mac,Sunnys Little Whiz, 3Bears
    Thanks Kev! How much importance do you place on 5th/6th dams vs 1st/2nd/3rd? I've always looked at more recent activity as I feel it's more influential and recent

  5. #5
    Senior Member Stallion aussiebreno is just really nice aussiebreno is just really nice
    Real Name
    Brendan Bryce
    Posts
    2,772
    Come across this article a few weeks ago.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...eds-racing-dna

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    6,095
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    A good read Brendan although I must say that it wandered away from the topic a few times.
    I found Dublin's Dr Hill more interesting/specific than Brown's Dr Harrison.
    Overall it seems most relevant to those who only want to breed a sprinter or stayer - because if you're happy with either, it will not take your trainer too long to work out which they are

    As they say, a single animal in the 5th generation only contributes 3% of a horse's DNA and despite all my research for BL, I wonder whether Frank Mitchell's claim has been be disproven nowadays:

    "Genes are passed on randomly from all parts of the pedigree"

    Having a foot in this corner leads me to like strong families

    Overall I tend to believe in Joe Estes' statement that

    "the racing class of the parents is the only dependable index I have ever found to indicate the probable racing class of the offspring. That index is, of course, reliable only to a limited degree. But it is far more reliable than any other"

    No doubt Katie, one wants the recent family to be performing and for that reason Betting Line's arm of U1 is very strong

    (Estes day was long ago and Mitchell's book is now more than 10yo - but I am an old timer myself now LOL. And a huge amateur)
    Last edited by Messenger; 08-03-2017 at 03:19 PM.
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  7. #7
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    6,095
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    Here are 2 links for Always B Miki's credentials, as I wanted to highlight (link 1) that more than half his $2.7m in stakes was won as a 5yo, unlike Betting Line who has been sent to stud after his 3yo season

    http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion...tallion_id=808

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Histor...ntClass&AD=ASC

    Here is the USTA link for his dam and 2nd dam:

    http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=808

    Just as Betting Line had, they are both producers and racemares themselves. The 1st dam Artstopper won US Broodmare of the Yr producing a second millionaire whom like Miki performed better later, after leaving filly ranks.
    The 2nd dam Aint No Stopn Me was the better racehorse winning a Gp3 as a 2yo and a Gp2 as a 3yo:

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Histor...rseID=10035207

    I then went back as far as ABM's 5th dam but this arm of the family only gains any prominence on classicfamilies from the 4th dam Savilla Song who has 8 progeny that classicfamilies expands upon so there were a few boxes to open but I only found 3 millionaires other than ABM and his sister and 2 of these were Jeremy's Gambit and his brother Sapphire City

    http://classicfamilies.net/CF/Descen...rseID=10017574

    Jeremy's Gambit went to stud including NZ but never made it as a sire

    The U14 family is not a particularly strong family, I don't think they have ever produced a superstar sire.

    http://classicfamilies.net/cf/Family...meGroup&AD=ASC

    From the broader family, we saw Forrest Skipper out here but he never made it and his bloodlines only intersect with ABM over 100yrs ago! Incredible Crafts and Alf Palema would seem to have won some distinction as sires in Europe but they too only intersect a century ago
    CR Kay Suzie was a champion but he never made it at stud and once again has a negligible link to ABM

    This is his coloured 5gen ped thanks to Pedigree Partner
    It is a very pretty looking pedigree but not one that PP rated highly so the duplications must not be where they like them
    Overall he is Always A Virgin's only standout and on breeding you cannot fault his dam but there is not much else to enthuse you from my research
    Of course one has to watch replays of these potential sires races and see if you are impressed by the type of racehorse they were
    Attached Files
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  8. #8
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Pat O'Boyle
    Posts
    435
    Love your work Kev, and that probably explains why Betting line is $10k and Always b Micki is $7k.

    Racing Hill is $5k and was pretty handy as a 2/3 year old and a son of Roll with Joe from the u4 family which is very strong as well.

    None of the above have any winning progeny from the US compared to RRHeaven and Roll with Joe when they started stud duties here

    Art Major and a RNR dance did do very well as 4 y/os. Not sure if to many have gone on to be top stallions after racing til the age of 5

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    6,095
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    Creatine, one of Andover Hall's best trotting sons, is from the same U14 family as Always B Miki (see above) but totally different arms
    If anybody wants to do him in detail go for it (maybe Richard who likes the European forum)

    His dam line is not that exciting but his pedigree bares comparison to Donato Hanover whom I think is probably Andover Hall's greatest advertisiement (even I have heard of him)
    You will see that while Donato H was out of a Donerail mare, Creatine's 2nd dam is by Donerail
    Donato H is however from the infinitely stronger U3 family, not that his immediate dams were anything special at all
    I notice that Donato H only bred to 6 mares last year (anybody know the story?)

    Here are the pedigrees and Creatin's USTA links

    http://classicfamilies.net/HorseDeta...rseID=10151350

    http://classicfamilies.net/horsedeta...rseID=10056350

    http://stars.ustrotting.com/stallion...tallion_id=806

    http://stars.ustrotting.com/dam.cfm?stallion_id=806
    The Thin Green Line - Supporting the Rangers who protect the world's endangered animals against poachers

  10. #10
    Senior Member 4YO KTQ will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Katie Howlett
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    346
    Horses
    Jack Mac,Sunnys Little Whiz, 3Bears
    A couple winners there..

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts