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Thread: The plight of one young trainer

  1. #21
    Member Gelding David Martin will become famous soon enough
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    Hi Pat,


    To be honest, I'm not sure how to respond to your comment. You don't want waffle, but also don't want statistics/facts to respond to matters raised. The reality is that without an improvement in wagering, then the previous declining trend of our industry would just continue. We needed to stop that decline and ensure the industry has revenue to invest in the areas everyone knows are important (stakemoney, integrity, etc., etc.).


    So to be constructive, maybe you can expand on your statement in regards to authorities not understanding the issues with some examples and specifics that I can respond to.


    Thanks, David

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    I noticed that the AllStars stable won 7 out of 9 races on the Auckland 12 race program yesterday including the 3 biggest ones

    https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/...s/123102rs.htm

    It made me wonder how the NZ trainers are faring so using their excellent site I ordered their trainers premiership according to stakes (I am not sure if if it included yesterday - their site is so good it would not surprise me)

    https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/...ps/tpship.htm#

    We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
    We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria

    Even though Emma Stewart dominates our VIC premiership table, it is not anywhere near the extent of the AllStars domination and yet I doubt if we have over 20 trainers who have earned in excess of $100k. For Vic Peter Manning is 9th on the HRV premiership table and has only won $120k so it would be surprising if we had 26 trainers over $100k even in a months time (The Vic premiership table is the best I can do without going to a lot of trouble as we still cannot sort the HRA's Trainers Chronicles by prizemoney or state)

    http://www.harness.org.au/vic-premierships.cfm

    It is interesting to also look at HRA's top 20 (which CAN be sorted by prizemoney)
    In the Top 19 (leaving out Mark Purdon NZ who is numero uno!)
    To my surprise we have

    6 New South Welshmen
    5 Queenslanders
    4 Vics
    3 Westies
    1 Taswegian

    http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...501?d=01012018
    Last edited by Messenger; 01-01-2018 at 03:53 PM. Reason: National look
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    I noticed that the AllStars stable won 7 out of 9 races on the Auckland 12 race program yesterday including the 3 biggest ones

    https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/...s/123102rs.htm

    It made me wonder how the NZ trainers are faring so using their excellent site I ordered their trainers premiership according to stakes (I am not sure if if it included yesterday - their site is so good it would not surprise me)

    https://infohorse.hrnz.co.nz/datahr/...ps/tpship.htm#

    We can see the AllStars dominate (and it is highly unlikely that this includes the $933k they have won in Oz) but I was surprised to see that there are 26 trainers who have won in excess of $100k in stakes (even if they are 5 months into their season compared to our 4)
    We have to remember that NZ in total only run as many races as Victoria

    Even though Emma Stewart dominates our VIC premiership table, it is not anywhere near the extent of the AllStars domination and yet I doubt if we have over 20 trainers who have earned in excess of $100k. For Vic Peter Manning is 9th on the HRV premiership table and has only won $120k so it would be surprising if we had 26 trainers over $100k even in a months time (The Vic premiership table is the best I can do without going to a lot of trouble as we still cannot sort the HRA's Trainers Chronicles by prizemoney or state)

    http://www.harness.org.au/vic-premierships.cfm

    It is interesting to also look at HRA's top 20 (which CAN be sorted by prizemoney)
    In the Top 19 (leaving out Mark Purdon NZ who is numero uno!)
    To my surprise we have

    6 New South Welshmen
    5 Queenslanders
    4 Vics
    3 Westies
    1 Taswegian

    http://www.harness.org.au/ausbreed/r...501?d=01012018

    Not sure where you're going with this one Kev. Owners don't like paying training fees whilst waiting for our bigger races at a later stage of the season?
    Total stakes distribution for the season Vic $40m v NZ $30m.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Martin View Post
    Hi Danny,


    Not sure if you attended any of the public forums earlier this year, but if you had, I think you will have seen a level of transparency not previously displayed. From day one, I have made myself available at tracks across the state, and on forums such as this to respond to issues, criticism, etc., in order to provide transparency and engage industry participants. In regards to stakemoney, the fact is that HRV has increased stakemoney to exceed $40m in 2017/18, and at the end of October, HRV had paid out $700k more than at the same time last year. In Sept/Oct, HRV introduced a $750 winners bonus only applicable for $3500 and $5000 races, which are more heavily won by non-professional trainers/drivers compared to higher stakes races. We have programmed races purely for trainers with 2 or less wins in the prior season, and 2.02 mile rate races for slower/older horses to give them and their connections a chance to win. All initiatives aimed to level the playing field.


    In regards to your points about integrity matters, we sought and obtained government support for a $3.1m injection of funding over two years so that we could increase post race swabs, veterinarians, stewards, invetigative officers, etc. Prior to my arrival, the Board had already commenced this journey and various matters before the courts are reflective of this increased focus. If you or others have specific information, then I would encourage you to report that via methods available as state on this weblink: http://www.hrv.org.au/integrity/repo...ious-activity/


    Happy to hear from you when you're back from holidays to address any matters you feel haven't been fully addressed here.


    Kind Regards,
    David

    Hi David,

    Just on 12 months in the position, I'm one who has been encouraged by your appointment and transparency. In my opinion, poles apart from the previous CEO. Seems as though you are still copping the big hangover of mistrust under the previous in your baptism of fire.

    Regarding integrity matters:
    - The Paul Bittar report. Where it's implementation is at and your thoughts on the recommendations?
    - The $3.1m injection is significant. In part a result of the Monteath audit that astonishingly disclosed swabs had dropped by 45% under the previous CEO along with very minimal out of comp testing. I believe the previous CEO wasn't for the Bittar report. If (quite possibly inevitable) the Bittar recommendations are adopted by the racing industry would HRV still have an Integrity Council? Could you clarify it's role as it stands now please?

    Some thoughts on the increase in integrity, the $3.1m etc. it's great to catch those, no question, but penalties aren't reflective of the impetus.


    Cheers, Wayne

  5. #25
    Member Gelding David Martin will become famous soon enough
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    Thanks Wayne,


    Yes, almost 12 months. Jan 9 was the official start date, but Dale Monteith and I attended the Horsham Cup on Jan 8. It has been a busy year, with lots to address in almost every area of the industry. With revenue and market share falling as quickly as they were, that was one of the highest priorities, as without it, the ability to fix other things is severely limited. We've been open about that challenge and what we've done to address it, with improvement already evident, but still a long way to go.


    In regards to the outcome of the Bittar report, we (all 3 codes) are awaiting the outcome from the Minister for Racing's review and consideration of the Bittar Report. I do note some comment was made about this recently, so we are likely to hear something in the not too distant future. https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead


    More broadly, I agree that punishments need to fit the crime. In some cases our system is overly tough on misdemeanours, yet not tough enough on more serious offences. We are looking at this in parallel with outcomes from the Bittar Report.


    In regards to trust, I think the old saying is 'hard fought and easily lost'. Hopefully people will see that we're listening, being open about our challenges and solutions, and working with the industry to turn things around. If people have questions, then as you have done, they should feel free to ask them and to contibute constructive suggestions for how we can further improve.


    Cheers, David

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlington View Post
    Not sure where you're going with this one Kev. Owners don't like paying training fees whilst waiting for our bigger races at a later stage of the season?
    Total stakes distribution for the season Vic $40m v NZ $30m.
    The comparison between NZ and VIC was a quick look at 'the plight of trainers in general'

    If I was being simplistic, it seems to me that a full time trainer would want to be making near on $100k to be considered successful and getting a fair return for hours worked
    You would hope training fees are always going to be their main source of income but you never know what some arrangements are nowadays
    If a trainer is going to be successful in the long term ie retain owners, then owners cannot be too much out of pocket. So ideally a trainers horses' prizemoney need to match his training bills so that owners are getting 85% of their money back (after Trainer and driver take)
    If a trainer wins $200k in a year he could justify $200k of training fees.
    He only gets $20k of the prizemoney and I figure more than half of the training fees/bills are expenses
    So, being very simplistic I question: "If a trainer is not winning $200k a year - does he have a long term future as a full time trainer?"

    We know that only 1% of people make money out of horse ownership so I guess what really happens is that you need a rotation of new owners to replace the old owners who wish to stop losing (This is why there has to be a lot more to horse ownership than profit)
    No doubt Syndicates are the way forward because a small investment/loss is what more people are happy to wear
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  7. #27
    Senior Member 4YO Fan of Jate will become famous soon enough
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    A pretty good comparison Kev, especially as NZ harness racing is apparently in peril, I am not sure why because most of them are over here. Maybe it is the fact that M.Purdon and co are winning most of biggest NZ races but then again that stable wins a shedful over here as well. The "plight of a trainer" thread can quite easily be changed to "the plight of an owner" then we can really see who are the winners and losers.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Martin View Post
    Thanks Wayne,

    Yes, almost 12 months. Jan 9 was the official start date, but Dale Monteith and I attended the Horsham Cup on Jan 8. It has been a busy year, with lots to address in almost every area of the industry. With revenue and market share falling as quickly as they were, that was one of the highest priorities, as without it, the ability to fix other things is severely limited. We've been open about that challenge and what we've done to address it, with improvement already evident, but still a long way to go.

    In regards to the outcome of the Bittar report, we (all 3 codes) are awaiting the outcome from the Minister for Racing's review and consideration of the Bittar Report. I do note some comment was made about this recently, so we are likely to hear something in the not too distant future. https://www.racing.com/news/2017-12-21/pakula-poc-integrity-key-challenges-ahead

    More broadly, I agree that punishments need to fit the crime. In some cases our system is overly tough on misdemeanours, yet not tough enough on more serious offences. We are looking at this in parallel with outcomes from the Bittar Report.

    In regards to trust, I think the old saying is 'hard fought and easily lost'. Hopefully people will see that we're listening, being open about our challenges and solutions, and working with the industry to turn things around. If people have questions, then as you have done, they should feel free to ask them and to contibute constructive suggestions for how we can further improve.


    Cheers, David
    Thanks for the Mr Pakula Bittar update link David.

    From the link -

    "Bittar recommended the establishment of the Victorian Racing Integrity Unit, which would encapsulate thoroughbred, harness and greyhound racing, as well as restructuring of the appeal process with a single cross-code Racing Appeals and Disciplinary Board that would eliminate appeals being heard at the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal.

    Just a personal observation - whilst realising implementing a cross code Appeals and Disciplinary Board has great complexities, I can't see eliminating VCAT is a bad thing at all.

    edit - considering the police charges in Vic of late, personally I'm not totally supportive of a harness participant having a jail sentence hanging over their head. I wish the sport could handle their own whilst being able to acknowledge the significance of even a 50 cent punter deserving a fair go for their investment. But the sport seems limited in it's rights to do so. Participants obviously need to be aware of the severity the community, governments, hence police have now placed on corruption in sport, remembering racing/punting is a revenue raiser for the government.

    On eliminating VCAT, sure participants should have an avenue for appeal but, as an example, when you think about on one hand you have police charges against participants for race day treatments/tubing but on the other hand you have participants going to VCAT to have a fine or suspension reduced for similar, seems poles apart, a mix match of the justice process. Police charges circumnavigate VCAT to some extent(?) Obviously I'm not a lawyer.

    end of ramble
    Last edited by arlington; 01-04-2018 at 12:09 PM.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator Horse Of The Year teecee has a spectacular aura about teecee's Avatar
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    We have independent cross code integrity (RIU) and judiciary (JCA) organisations. All integrity issues are handled by them right through to the appeal process.
    In my view both work extremely well.

  10. #30
    Senior Member 3YO strong persuader has a spectacular aura about strong persuader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Unfortunately an all too familiar story, administrators the nation over are, whether willfully or unwittingly running the game for the few rather than for the many and it MUST cease before there are only a handful of stables in each area catering to an ever decreasing pool of owners.

    This sport ( and I personally prefer that term over Industry, as it is an industry to fewer participants than it is a sport) should NOT be trying to be a "me too" to the thoroughbreds, it is an entirely different game and was founded by entirely different people trying to do things in an entirely different way catering to an entirely different audience.

    When will the revolving door of administrators to our game get this?? when we the participants have a greater say in those appointments,I believe. There have been scant few who know what goes on at the grassroots level, and those that have more often than not have carried out their duties with sufficient diligence to adequately represent the majority of participants who call this game a "sport"

    The game needs every single active participant to continue, but we are chasing good people away in the droves, whilst pandering to the few, as we have done for decades in the breeding side of the game, and where has that got everyone? The game has shrunk and the costs of breeding mean only a few will survive, giving rise to another important aspect of the game being available to the few rather than the many.

    Rant over,

    Merry Christmas to everyone, hope you and your families have a bonza day tomorrow!!!
    Been busy and a little slack lately, not having visited for a while. But Danno, if you ever run for a position on any industry board, I'd love to assist your campaign in any way I can.
    You are speaking words I hear in some form at nearly every trot meeting I go to where the 'little' folk still appear. Unfortunately, they seem to fall on deaf ears at higher levels
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