Roll With Joe
+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 34 1 2 3 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 340

Thread: IDEAS on how we can improve Harness Racing

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    14,029
    Horses
    A long, long time ago

    IDEAS on how we can improve Harness Racing

    We have had threads like this before but I am starting a new one.

    The following is taken from an email I have just sent :


    Entertainment product and marketing have to be improved while turnover needs to go up.

    Like your suggestion - we have to explore outside of the box.

    Taking share off gallops and greyhounds is a huge task. Arresting the decline is no doubt a start

    The gallops have a HUGE media advantage while the dogs have the advantage of cheap quick product

    At present we seem to be concentrating on increasing turnover by increasing the number of races ($3,500) that we run



    While I think we need to be innovative I fear that most innovations if successful will be replicated by our opposition.

    A grass Inter is an interesting thought - one side of me likes the promotional potential while my 'small track' side wants us to promote our point of difference from the gallops. We have to have a superior point of difference that cannot be replicated by the opposition - superior in that it catches the publics hearts I think small track racing is one such point

    Regardless of what the suggestion is - we need people continually coming up with IDEAS, ideas that can be individual to our sport



    I don't know that attendance is as important as it once was (it is still VERY important mind you) but when I took the misses to St Arnaud yesterday I only stayed 3 races in fairness to her. Even though we parked on the fence (special in itself and like going to the local footy) so she had her 'stuff' to entertain her between races and the horses doing their preliminaries helped - between the second and third race we were there she said, "How long is it between races?". 40 mins can seem like an eternity. Ideally we need the races much closer together (but Sky determines this) or we need something happening on the track/the stage between races. An MC (and guest interviews) can keep people in a lounge entertained but at St Arnaud and hopefully most venues - you will not fit the whole crowd in the lounge. Pony trots are value but they are only a Saturday and Sunday afternoon or school holidays option.



    We need to think of something entertaining that is horse related and logistically viable. I am not a fan of musical entertainment as the answer - if I wanted musical entertainment, I would go to a music venue. It is like 'pokies', while I understand that these dangerous machines help sporting clubs like St Arnaud, as far as attendance goes - you cannot pretend you are in the horse industry if that is what the people are turning up for



    I have waffled on a bit but hopefully someone can come up with the Big Idea that can make a difference
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  2. #2
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Amlin will become famous soon enough Amlin's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kyle Galley
    Posts
    605
    Only way you could decrease the time between races would be if you closed all betting before the first, then you could run races 15 mins apart. Nobody else is doing this, maybe we could do a test of it?

  3. #3
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    14,029
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    How about we send someone to Norway, really investigate the no-whip racing and make that a point of difference from the gallops
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  4. #4
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Greg Hando will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Greg Hando
    Location
    Central West NSW
    Posts
    965
    Quote Originally Posted by Amlin View Post
    Only way you could decrease the time between races would be if you closed all betting before the first, then you could run races 15 mins apart. Nobody else is doing this, maybe we could do a test of it?
    Have you ever tried unharnessing one and washing it and getting the next one in for the next race very hard and mistakes happen and can cost a race win been there done that they tried 20 min intervals in NSW while good for betting not so much for trainers/drivers /stewards and track curators
    Have whoever you want on but don't ever have yourself on

  5. #5
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Toohard will become famous soon enough Toohard's Avatar
    Real Name
    Paul Humphreys
    Location
    Gisborne, Victoria
    Posts
    818
    Horses
    PalaisDuLouvre,Trip 7s, AnythingForLove
    Went to the dog Melbourne Cup few weeks back. From an entertainment point of view it was awesome. So much going on between races and heaps of stuff for kids. And heaps of 20-25 age group there... maybe due close proximity to the Uni. Again a one off and a 2 hour drive for us but I'd go back again.

    But they have an advantage entertainment wise. Dogs not out on track 10 mins before race warming up.

    You won't get punters back to the track these days. Why would they go? Endless traffic snarls and cold weather. Better to stay home with live TV and phones to bet with. Those of us old enough to have seen it happen when things changed will remember the punters left the track first. And subsequently, took the bookmakers with them.

    Want other people to go to the track you need to entertain them. Like last night at Melton. Is that a priority? But tipping that probably cost money. Didn't see a lot of people punting last night and everything was free.

    Innovative.* Neither my ideas but in UK when I was there (gallops) they put bands on in summer after the last. Twilight meets and if pay to get in before say race 3 you get to see band for nothing. Else pay extra to get in. Decent crowds of young people there to watch races and have a bet.

    At one track went to (Windsor) they had figure 8 racing. Another in France went to had it too. It was fascinating to watch. Someone else suggest it on twitter recently. Leader become death seat horse after half a lap and vice versa. Home straight extra long as run diagonally. No sprint lanes needed ...probably coz drivers and horses dizzy!

  6. #6
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kevin O'Donoghue
    Location
    The Gap
    Occupation
    Retired
    Posts
    14,029
    Horses
    A long, long time ago
    Quote Originally Posted by Toohard View Post
    Went to the dog Melbourne Cup few weeks back. From an entertainment point of view it was awesome. So much going on between races and heaps of stuff for kids. And heaps of 20-25 age group there... maybe due close proximity to the Uni. Again a one off and a 2 hour drive for us but I'd go back again.

    But they have an advantage entertainment wise. Dogs not out on track 10 mins before race warming up.

    You won't get punters back to the track these days. Why would they go? Endless traffic snarls and cold weather. Better to stay home with live TV and phones to bet with. Those of us old enough to have seen it happen when things changed will remember the punters left the track first. And subsequently, took the bookmakers with them.

    Want other people to go to the track you need to entertain them. Like last night at Melton. Is that a priority? But tipping that probably cost money. Didn't see a lot of people punting last night and everything was free.

    Innovative.* Neither my ideas but in UK when I was there (gallops) they put bands on in summer after the last. Twilight meets and if pay to get in before say race 3 you get to see band for nothing. Else pay extra to get in. Decent crowds of young people there to watch races and have a bet.

    At one track went to (Windsor) they had figure 8 racing. Another in France went to had it too. It was fascinating to watch. Someone else suggest it on twitter recently. Leader become death seat horse after half a lap and vice versa. Home straight extra long as run diagonally. No sprint lanes needed ...probably coz drivers and horses dizzy!
    Why punters left is worth analysing to move forward
    I will substitute 'punters' for public in some points
    We know there has been more competition in the entertainment industry
    Did they leave because facilities were not good enough? Because transport became an issue? Because viewing at home became so much better?

    The thought of why do people go entered my mind yesterday (I had travelled 75 min to get there and had time to kill between races before travelling 75 min home - admittedly I like driving in the country but hate city snarls [recent weeks spent in Melbourne have proven to me that the city is $*@#^&])
    I don't believe that viewing from home is much better - maybe if you are simply a gambler or are watching Sydney gallops on their Boutique Foxtel channel (I have been tempted)

    Why do people go out to a movie? (Declining too, you say but you get my point - sometimes you just want to get out)

    What if we made it more financially attractive for a punter to be on course (Change the takeout ratios) while improving the total package

    If home is better do we really even need horses. Watching the boutique gallops channels they tell good stories about the horses and people but I could imagine with advances in animation they could produce dog racing that would look as good as the current product (and could come with a 'this is a random draw' message like they do before Tattslotto). I haven't looked at the animated stuff they have in the TABs for a long while - is it nearly there?

    I cannot however imagine the public getting too excited about the animated Winx

    I don't really want us to get into the music business but top quality food and drinks must go hand in hand with any entertainment over a lengthy time slot

    ps Figure 8 racing sounds very interesting although I am guessing it couldn't involve small track excitement but it would seem much better suited to harness than any other code
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  7. #7
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Toohard will become famous soon enough Toohard's Avatar
    Real Name
    Paul Humphreys
    Location
    Gisborne, Victoria
    Posts
    818
    Horses
    PalaisDuLouvre,Trip 7s, AnythingForLove
    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    Why punters left is worth analysing to move forward
    I will substitute 'punters' for public in some points
    We know there has been more competition in the entertainment industry
    Did they leave because facilities were not good enough? Because transport became an issue? Because viewing at home became so much better?

    The thought of why do people go entered my mind yesterday (I had travelled 75 min to get there and had time to kill between races before travelling 75 min home - admittedly I like driving in the country but hate city snarls [recent weeks spent in Melbourne have proven to me that the city is $*@#^&])
    I don't believe that viewing from home is much better - maybe if you are simply a gambler or are watching Sydney gallops on their Boutique Foxtel channel (I have been tempted)

    Why do people go out to a movie? (Declining too, you say but you get my point - sometimes you just want to get out)

    What if we made it more financially attractive for a punter to be on course (Change the takeout ratios) while improving the total package

    If home is better do we really even need horses. Watching the boutique gallops channels they tell good stories about the horses and people but I could imagine with advances in animation they could produce dog racing that would look as good as the current product (and could come with a 'this is a random draw' message like they do before Tattslotto). I haven't looked at the animated stuff they have in the TABs for a long while - is it nearly there?

    I cannot however imagine the public getting too excited about the animated Winx

    I don't really want us to get into the music business but top quality food and drinks must go hand in hand with any entertainment over a lengthy time slot

    ps Figure 8 racing sounds very interesting although I am guessing it couldn't involve small track excitement but it would seem much better suited to harness than any other code
    They left because it was easier and better to watch/bet from home. You won't get them back.... way of the world.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Amlin will become famous soon enough Amlin's Avatar
    Real Name
    Kyle Galley
    Posts
    605
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Hando View Post
    Have you ever tried unharnessing one and washing it and getting the next one in for the next race very hard and mistakes happen and can cost a race win been there done that they tried 20 min intervals in NSW while good for betting not so much for trainers/drivers /stewards and track curators
    Appreciate the time gap creates issues as it did in Vic.

    At Melton where many horses are local they could run a four race card, with a maximum Quad jackpot/kick off, one group of 10 premier drivers, betting closes before the start (like lotto) with all races shown on FTA TV.

    Again the gaps required would be the hurdle in creating a non-stop action extravaganza

  9. #9
    Member Yearling JanellePeter will become famous soon enough JanellePeter's Avatar
    Real Name
    J & P Haywood
    Location
    NSW
    Occupation
    Sectional Data to HRA
    Posts
    30
    Hi
    We are new to the forum but have analysed and punted on harness racing for some time. We have been looking for somewhere to share the ideas on how to improve harness racing. Note these ideas come from a punters perspective:
    1. Do away with Standing starts and Trot gait racing. We have many stats and rarely bother betting in these races due to the high percentage of breaks. I am sure we can all appreciate the frustration of watching a race only to see your horse rare at the start or not even make the start. Breaks in MS pacers are around 5% compared to over 35% in SS Trotts. It turns people off. It also makes it a lot easier to analyse races if you restrict it to pacers only.
    2. Try some races without the mobile gates and get them to start in rail and 1 wide formation to start the race. It is very frustrating spending time figuring out who should lead a race only to see a completely different configuration once the gate moves away. Let's try starting the race with No1 leading, No2 outside leader, No 3 behind leader, No 4 1 out 1 back etc. At least you know the order of racing, horses shouldn't get unluckily trapped wide which happens in 90% of all races. The races end up in a formation so why not try starting in formation.
    3. Tracks need consideration. Unlike gallops horses on some tracks can't win from anywhere. We should limit the number of tracks used and spend money to have them setup properly. Hobart is one of our favoured tracks. It contains a sprint lane (this is a must for fair racing in our opinion), The super-evaluation or chamfer on the bends is good which improves speed around the bends and uses less energy when horses need to go wide, and it has a long straight giving horses a chance to find a running line and compete. Tracks with home straights less than 100m are terrible. Add in no sprint lane and you see a very high percent of leaders winning. Its a race to the first corner. As we have read on this forum the attendance at tracks is never going to go up because people can view everything from their lounge room. We would love to see only 5 tracks in NSW within a fairly close proximity to each other. We can only imagine how much travel the horses and drivers etc have to do each week to get around to every different tracks. This could create a Harness Racing Hub for NSW.

    Sorry if we are covering old ground.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
    Real Name
    Dot Schmidt
    Posts
    616
    Quote Originally Posted by JanellePeter View Post
    Hi
    We are new to the forum but have analysed and punted on harness racing for some time. We have been looking for somewhere to share the ideas on how to improve harness racing. Note these ideas come from a punters perspective:
    1. Do away with Standing starts and Trot gait racing. We have many stats and rarely bother betting in these races due to the high percentage of breaks. I am sure we can all appreciate the frustration of watching a race only to see your horse rare at the start or not even make the start. Breaks in MS pacers are around 5% compared to over 35% in SS Trotts. It turns people off. It also makes it a lot easier to analyse races if you restrict it to pacers only.
    2. Try some races without the mobile gates and get them to start in rail and 1 wide formation to start the race. It is very frustrating spending time figuring out who should lead a race only to see a completely different configuration once the gate moves away. Let's try starting the race with No1 leading, No2 outside leader, No 3 behind leader, No 4 1 out 1 back etc. At least you know the order of racing, horses shouldn't get unluckily trapped wide which happens in 90% of all races. The races end up in a formation so why not try starting in formation.
    3. Tracks need consideration. Unlike gallops horses on some tracks can't win from anywhere. We should limit the number of tracks used and spend money to have them setup properly. Hobart is one of our favoured tracks. It contains a sprint lane (this is a must for fair racing in our opinion), The super-evaluation or chamfer on the bends is good which improves speed around the bends and uses less energy when horses need to go wide, and it has a long straight giving horses a chance to find a running line and compete. Tracks with home straights less than 100m are terrible. Add in no sprint lane and you see a very high percent of leaders winning. Its a race to the first corner. As we have read on this forum the attendance at tracks is never going to go up because people can view everything from their lounge room. We would love to see only 5 tracks in NSW within a fairly close proximity to each other. We can only imagine how much travel the horses and drivers etc have to do each week to get around to every different tracks. This could create a Harness Racing Hub for NSW.

    Sorry if we are covering old ground.
    Welcome J&P. I know you have prefaced your remarks as from the view of the punter, however the industry is so much more then just punting. As Kev has said the trotter is the growth sector of the industry. Doing away with the trotter ( and by default the vast majority of standing starts) would see something I imagine now in the order of 25% of the value of the industry and reduce its net worth in Vic at least by around $100m. Some of this maybe reinvested in pacers but I expect the majority would be lost to the industry, and whilst there may be an increase on turnover on pacing races the end result would be an overall reduction in turnover as a result of fewer races.

    Trotting races do turn over less then pacing races, however at the lower levels trot races frequently have a higher number of starters, and at the elite level races have lower prizemoney then pacing races so trots ( as opposed to pacing participants) whilst generating lesser returns are also receiving less in return.

    Gallops punters don't appear to struggle to analyse the form between sprint, middle distance, and staying ( and occasionally jumps) races which actually have a number of runners participating through more then one category whilst trotters rarely compete against pacers so I don't see how doing away with trotters makes analysing pacing races easier. To take that concept to the extreme, should we be racing pacers only on identical tracks at exactly the same distance to make it easier to analyse?

    As for point 2 I actually suggested that ( but using the mobile gate) to David Martin some 18months ago, as an alternative handicapping method to standing starts given the reducing horse population meant increasing disparity in the abilities of the horses in a field. Whilst not suggesting replacing the conventional mobile start for all races, this form of start does offer better handicapping opportunities and negates gatespeed if the field is accelerated to race speed before the gate pulls away which may in turn lead to more "blanket" finishes. Only way to know is to trial it, and that's certainly a lot easier then building a mile straight track ( as suggested elsewhere ) and trialing that!!

    Whilst not contained in a single hub it does appear that NSW is evolving towards a limited number of tracks, distance and travel is a consideration, and whilst times are a changing historically a reduction in the number of tracks has always resulted in a corresponding decline in the number of participants and horses.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts