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Thread: Where are the 2yo's ?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colt alphastud will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    Tail Light (foaled 1959) is his 5th dam, Noel

    but I can now see that his 4th dam must have raced too as she won $295 and she did foal that winner
    and on further investigation a the 3rd dam produced a couple in the breeding barn.
    One that caught my eye, Sankemhar, had a short 2yo career before winning 6 out of 8 as a 3yo and then that was the finish of his career

    So although there was not any success on the track in Major Roll's direct damline after his 5th dam there was enough happening in the barn to keep giving the line of an Oaks winner a chance to produce another
    What do you think would have been Major Roll's top bid if he were in the 2017 APG yearling sale?

  2. #22
    aussiebreno
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphastud View Post
    What do you think would have been Major Roll's top bid if he were in the 2017 APG yearling sale?
    Wouldn't have got much more than the service fee (if that) if he went through the yearling sales.

  3. #23
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphastud View Post
    What do you think would have been Major Roll's top bid if he were in the 2017 APG yearling sale?
    I guess he would have gone through the Sydney sale as the breeders are NSW
    There were plenty of Art Major's to pick from - 26 but they did well of course especially the colts
    It would come down to conformation but he could have gone for something around what
    Esther Jane's colt went for = $15,000

    All the higher priced lots had good winning dams/recent barn success in the pedigree

    There were 40 Art Major's in the Melb sale
    The cheapest colt went for $25,000
    but he was out of a winning dam who was the dam of Charlie McSheen (maybe this colt had something wrong with him)

    So overall I would think $15-25k Richard. With a service fee of around $10k you would want more
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  4. #24
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Adaptor will become famous soon enough
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    That's about right.

    I don't think it wouldn't have made it to APG sale.

    Notice SMART SET (Imp) in the pedigree ( Smart Light). He was at stud with or after Royal Dollar and was a disaster!
    HRA site for his results looks incorrect to me, but his progeny were nice looking chestnout horses, but were not competitive. Messed up a lot of pedigrees...

  5. #25
    Senior Member Colt alphastud will become famous soon enough
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    Many would agree Brendan from a catalogue perspective.

    Thanks Kevin and Noel. However, Major Roll is by RWJ and that service fee may have been between 4 and 5k from memory.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Stallion Showgrounds is just really nice Showgrounds is just really nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaptor View Post
    That's about right.

    I don't think it wouldn't have made it to APG sale.

    Notice SMART SET (Imp) in the pedigree ( Smart Light). He was at stud with or after Royal Dollar and was a disaster!
    HRA site for his results looks incorrect to me, but his progeny were nice looking chestnout horses, but were not competitive. Messed up a lot of pedigrees...
    I learnt in my teens (many decades ago!) to avoid any horse with Smart Set in its bloodlines. The few decent horses he left were mainly out of blue-blood mares and bred by Bob Parker. He was an early USA import by Ensign Hanover (I think I am correct) as was H.D. Hanover (another disaster). Polluted many good Aussie families into oblivion.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphastud View Post
    Many would agree Brendan from a catalogue perspective.

    Thanks Kevin and Noel. However, Major Roll is by RWJ and that service fee may have been between 4 and 5k from memory.
    LOL Richard (sorry for leading you astray Noel)

    I spent yonks looking at the pedigrees - except for the one that counts!

    Trying again - being a RWJ, disregarding conformation, he was unlikely to fetch as much as Trudee's colt that only got $10k
    Last edited by Messenger; 02-03-2018 at 12:49 AM.
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

  8. #28
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Hypotheticals are great for debate but would the owner breeders be caring about the sale hypothetical? I say well done them. It's a bit of an insult to price the horse, disregards the breeder's persistence and likelihood one or two of the progeny/breed could have shown promise at home but never made it to the track.
    APG is nearly all encompassing as it is now, let's not suggest any successful home bred should have gone through the ring.

    Off on a tangent but we really should be considering a non sales based futurity series. Non sales bred are still the majority? We're democratic aren't we? It's getting that way, from the marketing, if you don't buy an APG horse you may as well not be in the game.
    Non sales futurity, yes, that means sales horses aren't eligible. Doesn't mean a going horse like Major Roll couldn't change hands. How would it hurt the industry if there was more incentive for non commercial breeders? Shouldn't be forgotten that selling at the yearling sales does off load your risk early.

    In Vic, the Home Grown Series could be used. Am still in a quandary as to the reason why the maximum stake earned for eligibility was raised from 6k to 10k. It's programming on the calendar is in early May. Originally that was purely due to the Government funding having to be used in that financial year ending June. I should also point out it was introduced for youngsters unlikely to reach the lofty heights of the Sires Super Series or Breeders Crown so running it in May is very questionable. Interesting that a more realistic slot, July, has now been taken by APG, hmmm. So you have these quality APG youngsters eligible for everything, including the Home Grown, with their own round of $50,000 championship (consolation?) races in July, which of course non sales horses aren't eligible for.

    I'm not bashing APG but when you think about the ownership of APG you wonder if it takes over administrator's thoughts and not hard to wonder who influences the administrators.
    No doubt the Home Grown having Group status would prickle commercial breeders if their lots weren't eligible (I suspect this has already influenced) but how about this, don't apply for it to have Group status. Or run two $25,000 series instead of $50,000. Does black type matter that much to non commercial breeders? I think, with what little voice they have, they're yelling "show me the money".

    Good luck to the non APG horses in the Hunger Cup tonight and good luck to all the vendors and buyers on Sunday and good luck to all the breeders who intend to race the foals they'll be looking at tomorrow morning and dreaming.


    A bit about the writer, have bought and bred to race.
    Last edited by Messenger; 02-03-2018 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Colt alphastud will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlington View Post
    Hypotheticals are great for debate but would the owner breeders be caring about the sale hypothetical? I say well done them. It's a bit of an insult to price the horse, disregards the breeder's persistence and likelihood one or two of the progeny/breed could have shown promise at home but never made it to the track.
    APG is nearly all encompassing as it is now, let's not suggest any successful home bred should have gone through the ring.

    Off on a tangent but we really should be considering a non sales based futurity series. Non sales bred are still the majority? We're democratic aren't we? It's getting that way, from the marketing, if you don't buy an APG horse you may as well not be in the game.
    Non sales futurity, yes, that means sales horses aren't eligible. Doesn't mean a going horse like Major Roll couldn't change hands. How would it hurt the industry if there was more incentive for non commercial breeders? Shouldn't be forgotten that selling at the yearling sales does off load your risk early.

    In Vic, the Home Grown Series could be used. Am still in a quandary as to the reason why the maximum stake earned for eligibility was raised from 6k to 10k. It's programming on the calendar is in early May. Originally that was purely due to the Government funding having to be used in that financial year ending June. I should also point out it was introduced for youngsters unlikely to reach the lofty heights of the Sires Super Series or Breeders Crown so running it in May is very questionable. Interesting that a more realistic slot, July, has now been taken by APG, hmmm. So you have these quality APG youngsters eligible for everything, including the Home Grown, with their own round of $50,000 championship (consolation?) races in July, which of course non sales horses aren't eligible for.

    I'm not bashing APG but when you think about the ownership of APG you wonder if it takes over administrator's thoughts and not hard to wonder who influences the administrators.
    No doubt the Home Grown having Group status would prickle commercial breeders if their lots weren't eligible (I suspect this has already influenced) but how about this, don't apply for it to have Group status. Or run two $25,000 series instead of $50,000. Does black type matter that much to non commercial breeders? I think, with what little voice they have, they're yelling "show me the money".

    Good luck to the non APG horses in the Hunger Cup tonight and good luck to all the vendors and buyers on Sunday and good luck to all the breeders who intend to race the foals they'll be looking at tomorrow morning and dreaming.

    A bit about the writer, have bought and bred to race.
    Thanks Kevin and Wayne.
    Wayne - my question was mainly to understand the market sentiment for RWJ at the APG sales and you've somehow interpreted that into something untoward. Sorry if you or the owner / breeders were offended as that wasn't the intent of the question.
    Congratulations to the connections of Major Roll and I hope that he wins many more when not racing us.

    The other reasons for the question was a few fold. I wanted to highlight that good horses can come from anywhere and Major Roll is such an example. See also Ultimate Art who was purchased for around $5k at the Bathurst sale and has won over $500k.
    I doubt that many could recommended breeding Courlivia however it's great that she was bred and has produced a potential star in Major Roll. I want to know understand why this breeding worked given the lack (apparent) of quality in the dam line.

    Re - Non-sales based futurities : Aren't the NSW Breeders Challenge, Vicbred, Bathurst Gold Crown etc. non-sales based futurities? And I think that you can make your yearling APG eligible without running them through the sale. What if we had an owner / breeder futurity?

    There are some concerning downward trends in HR which includes breeding. The current incentives / futurities haven't solved the problem. Currently, we have a small crop of young racehorses taking the lion's share of the prizemoney.
    What % of racing 2YO's won over $10k in the 2017 season? At the end of this season, what % of 3YO's will have won $15k LTS?
    Handicappers could help by offering more races with 0 LTW however they have a conundrum due to the racehorse population. They have to combine fillies / colts and horses that have won races. Fillies get preferential draw and so your colt / gelding is often disadvantaged.

  10. #30
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphastud View Post
    Thanks Kevin and Wayne.
    Wayne - my question was mainly to understand the market sentiment for RWJ at the APG sales and you've somehow interpreted that into something untoward. Sorry if you or the owner / breeders were offended as that wasn't the intent of the question.
    Congratulations to the connections of Major Roll and I hope that he wins many more when not racing us.

    The other reasons for the question was a few fold. I wanted to highlight that good horses can come from anywhere and Major Roll is such an example. See also Ultimate Art who was purchased for around $5k at the Bathurst sale and has won over $500k.
    I doubt that many could recommended breeding Courlivia however it's great that she was bred and has produced a potential star in Major Roll. I want to know understand why this breeding worked given the lack (apparent) of quality in the dam line.

    Re - Non-sales based futurities : Aren't the NSW Breeders Challenge, Vicbred, Bathurst Gold Crown etc. non-sales based futurities? And I think that you can make your yearling APG eligible without running them through the sale. What if we had an owner / breeder futurity?

    There are some concerning downward trends in HR which includes breeding. The current incentives / futurities haven't solved the problem. Currently, we have a small crop of young racehorses taking the lion's share of the prizemoney.
    What % of racing 2YO's won over $10k in the 2017 season? At the end of this season, what % of 3YO's will have won $15k LTS?
    Handicappers could help by offering more races with 0 LTW however they have a conundrum due to the racehorse population. They have to combine fillies / colts and horses that have won races. Fillies get preferential draw and so your colt / gelding is often disadvantaged.
    If only it was easy to find stats like that in Australia Richard - our database is frankly pathetic

    I can give you NZ however, for 2017

    55 NZ 2yo's won $10k+

    around 130 NZ 3yo's won $15k+ ( I say around as I couldn't be bothered counting but did count it was 36 per page)
    per un PUGNO di DOLLARI

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