stallions

[triplev123]

I agree with you both TripleV123 & Thesushitrain, it is about time to limit the stallion books, it will make for a more even playing field:\

[VVV] NO WAY KNOWN I would support limited books. Never beat Restriction Of Trade legislation anyway.

[eliteblood]

i doubt his dominance, simply a case of numbers on the ground

I think it is more than simply a case of numbers on the ground.

Art Major is a great stallion because he consistently produces top class racehorses, such as Art Official, Santanna Blue Chip and Major in Art in USA as well as Sushi Sushi, For A Reason, Lady Euthenia and Renaiisance Man in Australia (not to mention his best son in Australia, Oscar Lane )

In the USA, from only 4 crops of average size for a high profile stallion up there, Art Major
- was the leading 2YO sire with his 1st and 3rd crop and is currently in 2nd position with his 4th crop
- has sired 3 Woodrow Wilson winners
- is the only sire ever to have 4 with records better than 1:48

I Australia he was leading 2YO sire with his first crop in 2008/09 (earnings record) and is currently a runaway leader in 2YO sire in 2010/11 (breaking his previous earnings record). His offspring are regularly winning the races that matter.

In evaluating stallions I think it is important to look beyond statistics like winners / foal and consider the quality of those winners and the ability of the stallion to consistently produce high class individuals.

Art Major, Bettors Delight and Mach Three are world class stallions and stand apart from the other stallions mentioned in this thread. Numbers of foals are a factor but there is more to it then that.

[thesushitrain]

trevor, you HAVE to look at the stats to look at averages

racing is a numbers game, all of those top stallions have thrown classy horses exactly as you've mentioned

he may have set records for earnings but he also would have set records for the amount of foals on the ground, not to mention that hes to only top stallion to have been standing in nsw when the breeders challenge AND sire stakes were running together, so is it any surprise that with the most foals on the ground in the season, in a season where the home bred prizemoney is strong that he had high earnings?

and as far as the US is concerned, western ideal is THE top stallion bar none!

[Flashing Red]

[VVV] NO WAY KNOWN I would support limited books. Never beat Restriction Of Trade legislation anyway.

That actually requires someone to challenge it - and not too many people in the harness industry would actually have the time or the money to do so. When EI hit, my constitutional law lecturer said that stopping the movement of horses was also a restraint of trade and if challenged would be successful. There wasn't a peep from the industry, despite the fact that a lot of good horses missed a lot of good races because of it....

[aussiebreno]

That actually requires someone to challenge it - and not too many people in the harness industry would actually have the time or the money to do so. When EI hit, my constitutional law lecturer said that stopping the movement of horses was also a restraint of trade and if challenged would be successful. There wasn't a peep from the industry, despite the fact that a lot of good horses missed a lot of good races because of it....

Alabar would surely dispute something that would cost them a lot of sales.
But you are right for the time and money with EI. Plus harness racing people are generally sensible; and know whats 'right' so tendency to dispute the EI is low. Also, a lot of trainers are hobbyists and don't have to declare income (if they were lucky enough to get income!!) therefore aren't really trading.

[pukpuk]

cellent replies guys - thanx. I agree on the list - Art Major. bettors and M3 are head and shoulders above the rest.
However, as breeders, if you had 2 or 3 mares and say 12g, would you breed only one to one of the above, OR split it a amongst some of the others OR have a punt on a few untried ones. ( some of the other mares on the list are very affordable at the moment.
Lets suggest breeding to race as breeding to sell is a no brainer.

[eliteblood]

trevor, you HAVE to look at the stats to look at averages

racing is a numbers game, all of those top stallions have thrown classy horses exactly as you've mentioned

he may have set records for earnings but he also would have set records for the amount of foals on the ground, not to mention that hes to only top stallion to have been standing in nsw when the breeders challenge AND sire stakes were running together, so is it any surprise that with the most foals on the ground in the season, in a season where the home bred prizemoney is strong that he had high earnings?

and as far as the US is concerned, western ideal is THE top stallion bar none!

Sushitrain, you don't seem to accept my suggestion that one needs to go beyond simply looking at stats and then you suggest that Western Ideal is the best stallion in the USA bar none. On what basis have you come to that opinion. I have included the current season stats below to help you answer that question.


SIRE STATISTICS 2011
Leading Money Winning Sires in 2011
2-Year-Old Pacers

Sire Name Foals Earnings
MACH THREE 137 $1,104,015
ART MAJOR 94 $1,054,520
DRAGON AGAIN 139 $1,006,445
ROCKNROLL HANOVER 155 $817,937
WESTERN IDEAL 88 $776,490
YANKEE CRUISER 89 $666,357





SIRE STATISTICS 2011
Leading Money Winning Sires in 2011 3-year-Old Pacers

Sire Name FoalsEarnings
BETTOR'S DELIGHT 132 $3,180,495
ROCKNROLL HANOVER 159 $2,915,326
ART MAJOR 147 $2,646,003
WESTERN HANOVER 128 $2,503,213
CAMLUCK 134 $2,320,900
WESTERN IDEAL 83 $2,308,132

[thesushitrain]

western ideal was the leading 2yr old average earnings sire 2010 (by a huge margin), 2nd on 3yrs 2011, and 3rd on the 2 yr old 2011...

speaking of classy individuals, his son RNRH absolutely gapped the 3 yr old 2010

your 'stats' are heavily manipulated by how many foals are on the ground, which is why you look at averages..

and thereforewestern ideal is the leading stallion

[triplev123]

There's one VITAL aspect that nobody seems to be taking into account here and that's the relative/comparitive quality of the books of mares they served in order to get to where they are at present.
For example, he's now standing at Hanover, but I think it's fair to say that Yankee Cruiser punched his way out of Ohio by way of his demonstrated ability to leave good racehorses from relatively ordinary mares. From the 2yo list above you'll note he is within 100k of Western Ideal in 2yo progeny earnings with virtually the same number of mares but while they're both at Hanover and ther respective 2yo crops were produced there, you can guarentee Western Ideal served better quality mares head to head. For mine, it is big ticks for Yanke Cruiser to date but of course there's still a long way to go.
Then consider Mach Three's surge to the top of the 2yos this season. That is almost entirely OSS $$$ and it comes as a direct result of him receiving more & better quality mares in the wake of Somebeachsomewhere's outstanding efforts. More mares, better mares, progeny racing almost entirely in the lucrative OSS system. How many 'Doing a good job at Stud' woggles does he get for that? Weigh it up as you see fit.

There are other external to breeding factors which should not be dismissed as they greatly influence these lists too.
In the next season or two, and it will be absolutely no reflection whatsoever on the siring ability of the horse, due to the immense upheaval in NJ (if he remains there) you can reasonably expect Rocknroll Hanover to start to slip a bit on the 2yo & 3yo Earnings Tables and that would be in complete lockstep with the widely discussed expected decline in the NJSS purses.
Maybe when he goes back up there after this Southern Hemisphere season you'll find he will immediately head off to Pa. or to NY or to Ontario...to stand somewhere that the SS purse structure is more lucrative than it is apparently going to be in NJ.

Sometimes the story is just as the figures suggest. Other times, it's not.

[eliteblood]

Yes, he had a very good 2YO crop last year (3YO's this year) and has been having a great run lately, although Big Jim has just broken down and probably won't race again. He was a good racehorse, is beautifully bred and has been a good stallion throughout his career.
You will have noted however that his 3rd on the 2YO average earnings this year still places him just behind Art Major and that his 3YO average earnings in 2010 didn't place him in the top 20.