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Thread: Lazarus to the USA

  1. #131
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    There are milers and there are others, Lazarus is one of the very mighty "others", sure he will improve his mile racing ability the more he is confronted with it and tries to adjust to it, BUT the horse is not a miler just like Blacks A Fake wasn't , Pure Steel wasn't, Rowley Alla was, Gammalite wasn't and Popular Alm was. Lazarus is the best horse produced in the Southern Hemisphere in probably 25 or 30 years or more, no horse has done to top class stayers in staying races what he has done in my memory and that only goes back to the late sixties.

    I would love to see him race McWicked over 2 miles!!! It would be a slaughter, if the people who bought him have any nouse whatsoever, they would be trying to line something like that up and show the world what he is REALLY capable of.

  2. #132
    Senior Member 4YO gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    All the horses that beat Lazarus in Aus over the mile were also trained to race mostly longer distances and came from similar lead up campaigns. Although he did have probably the hardest lead up to Miracle Miles . I don't see any reason that they would not improve just as much if they were trained for only mile racing in faster carts and on faster tracks. It's just my opinion and unfortunately most of the horses that beat him have retired or broken down so we will probably never find out.

    He is doing a great job promoting Australian harness racing to the world and hopefully he will break the world record.
    Don't die wondering !

  3. #133
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    So Rick do you think there are horses that are milers and horses that are not?

    What about the very few horses that beat Blacks a Fake and their success or otherwise over a distance or a mile?

    Do you also think the gallopers dream up favorite distances for their horses?

    How many horses have beaten Lazarus over a distance beyond 2000 meters ?

    The horse is light years above all others in his generation over a distance, you can choose to ignore that fact if you like but it remains so if you look at facts that are recorded for those that choose to avail themselves.
    Last edited by Danno; 10-10-2018 at 10:43 PM.

  4. #134
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    Rick, will no doubt post for himself but I think he was the one who reignited this debate with post 125 by suggesting Laz isn't one of our 'milers'
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  5. #135
    Senior Member 4YO gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    Danno, I'm not sure if you have read all my posts.
    I think Laz is one of the best horses Australasia has ever produced over distances above one mile. I have never disputed that.


    I do think some horses are better over shorter trips and some are better over longer trips. The figures on Lazarus for one mile races in Aus are 4 starts for 1 win. Over longer distances he was rarely beaten.
    I think Lazarus goes best over trips longer than one mile and I am amazed that he is running such good times in US and Canada.


    Some people on here and other forums seem to think that the horses that beat him here over one mile would not improve their mile performances as much as Lazarus has. I think they would improve to a similar extent and I think some of them could run faster miles than he has.



    These are my opinions and I am well aware of all the facts and figures . I have never ignored his record over longer distances or disputed his ability over distance. I think that you have misunderstood my post . I am just curious as to how fast the horses that beat him here over the mile could go in the US. I don't think any of them were better horses overall but they could run faster miles than Lazarus did in Australia. So I think some of them might have been able to go even quicker over a mile than whatever time Laz ends up going.
    Don't die wondering !

  6. #136
    Senior Member 3YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    It was frequently remarked during Smoken Ups career and domination of mile racing on the Menangle track what a great stayer he was. And mile racing at its fastest is exactly that, a staying test, there are no cheap sectionals, no breathers in the run, Lazarus is a great stayer, perhaps our greatest stayer, and therefore he is a great miler, and very likely our greatest miler too.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Stallion aussiebreno is just really nice aussiebreno is just really nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dot View Post
    It was frequently remarked during Smoken Ups career and domination of mile racing on the Menangle track what a great stayer he was. And mile racing at its fastest is exactly that, a staying test, there are no cheap sectionals, no breathers in the run, Lazarus is a great stayer, perhaps our greatest stayer, and therefore he is a great miler, and very likely our greatest miler too.
    Laz is possibly the greatest 2400m+ stayer because of his aerobic capacity can maintain 27,28 qtrs all day long.
    His anaerobic capacity isn't as great at staying and is what what brings him back to the field because he can't sustain three 26qtrs as well as a Soho Tribeca can.
    As an aside his speed/acceleration is also only par with other Grand Circuit horses. Not quite so simply but its his aerobic capacity that wins him his races.

    Note the final two quarters on a lightning fast track were 27 and 27. In the two Miracle Mile failures
    one featured a 26.1 and the other a 25.9 quarter in the last 800m. Quarters the other days were perfect for Laz. He eased off in the 26 opening quarter so his anaerobic capacity wasn't tested like it was in the Miracle Miles.
    Same story in his Chariots of Fire mile win - his anaerobic energy stores never got depleted because there was only 27 quarters.

    Smoken Up great anaerobic stores and record at the Mile. Im Themightyquinn had weaker anaerobic stores and stops his amazing sprint after a few hundred metres. Head to head who had the better record at distances 2400m+? It wasnt the 'Stayer' it was Quinny. Different energy systems required at different distances and even across the way same distance races are run.

  8. #138
    Super Moderator Stallion Richard prior will become famous soon enough Richard prior's Avatar
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    I’ll put my 2 bobs worth in and no argument with what’s been posted above, To me, Lazarus is a very intelligent horse that has gone from 1 training regime to a completely different 1 in another country, He’s landed in Nth America with 1 thing in mind, Mile racing and has adapted very quickly to this style of racing, He is far better over longer distances as we know but it’s staggering to me just how far he’s proggressed and how much his PB’s have come down, Now he’s in the 1.46 plus range which is a hell of an achievement and Jimmy Takter must take a lot of credit for this, To turn a very seasoned horse around from racing over a variety of distances to just Mile racing is an incredible feat

  9. #139
    Senior Member 3YO Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Agree Richard bar one thing and that's the "he is far better over longer distances as we know". Lazarus has been more successful over longer distances racing down under but that doesn't necessarily translate directly to he is better over longer distances then he is over a mile.

    As Brenno posted above horses do have varying aerobic and anerobic excercise capacity, and fast, slow and adaptive muscle fibres, and different energy systems are required to win races depending distance and on the way the race is run. But muscle fibre and aerobic and anaerobic capacity are adaptive and modify (to a degree) as a result of training, that is excercise intensity and duration.

    With a focus on distance racing downunder, particularly in NZ, no doubt Lazarus training routine was tailored to maximising his ability over longer distances in a manner Mark Purdon has used with success for many years, which along with the proportion of distance races as opposed to mile races in his resume was unlikely to give a true indication of his ability over a mile. Certainly in that last MM he drew 10 and arguably he was effected by ill health, and there were at least three horses who went great races that day, most outstanding to me Soho Tribecca.

    But the improvement in a horse is not unlimited, Lazarus's "poor" mile times but otherwise phenomenal record, meant he had room for major improvement over the mile, and he has adapted and found it under a program tailored for mile racing by Jimmy Takter. I've every respect for what Our Field Marshall, Jilliby Kung Fu and in particularl Soho Tribecca achieved in the last miracle mile but they were clearly at the top of their game on the day and would certainly be compeditive in the top class in the U.S. and perhaps improve their marks a little but I don't believe they are open to the same degree of improvement over a mile that Lazarus was.

  10. #140
    Senior Member 4YO gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    Dot we are talking about hypothetical situations and personal opinions . I would love to see the 3 horses you mentioned above go to the US and see what they could do. My opinion is that at least one of them would go better than 1.46 and faster than what ever Lazarus does. I may be wrong, I have been before , on the odd occasion I am proved correct. I respect everyone's opinion on here and we will just have to agree to disagree.
    I must say that I can't make much sense out of Danno's last post. Is it just me ?
    Don't die wondering !

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