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Thread: Industry Indicators - Good, Bad & Ugly

  1. #21
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year arlington will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    Thanks Richard

    Wow that is DIFFERENT

    " Each winning ticket holder will then have an entry
    in The Kosciuszko and can select a NSW country trained horse to race in their entry,
    subject to agreeing with the horse’s owners as to how they will share the prizemoney for
    the race."


    I know it is copying the main race, The Everest, but imagine Joe or Josephine Blow being in a position to find/select a horse to represent them
    One question. Why didn't Peter V wait for Melbourne Cup week to announce

    That announcement, concept, and the current Breeders Crown discussion, interesting.


    In regards to the Breeders Crown http://www.harnessracingforum.com/sh...Breeders-Crown three years ago to the day.
    The BC has moved a long way from it's inception as the Bendigo Breeders Crown. Sure, bigger prize money for the ABC and it's not surprising the word elitist has come up and that's a long way from the BBC. (I think Kyle was on the money. Initially, as the BBC, heats were run in Vic, although Peter Walsh won with Flubber (a name for Kev) early on so whether there were NSW heats at least?)

    I'm not sure if there is anything constructive in my memories of something that felt good when the BBC final day was first run. Heaps of people, participants at all levels, felt good, happy. Easy for me to think/recall now it was happy days until it became the ABC. I'm obviously a Vic participant.

    Now we have the marquee/area for participating owners on final day at Melton. Not a bad thing. BBC we had, I should say Bendigo HRC had a fair, field days atmosphere to it. Noel, Adaptor might like to add? I'm not sure where I'm going with this but the BBC felt like it encompassed all.

    The relevance might be the C $5000 prize money level against the Australasian Breeders Crown. Considering that most ABC entrants have come and will continue to come from Vic it would be questionable if the ABC could continue even at the elite, I won't say elitist, level with a C5k tier. Doubt very much if R4K will do much either. I go back to wondering what's wrong with two tiers. R3.5/4K and max the C prizemoney, one tier, regardless of assessment or quality.

    Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?) Considering we are moving to a national system still(?)

    Amongst other factors, the increase to the R $ level may well be a "reward" for funding the $10K races as well as a great percentage of $7K races. Leaves the $5K level treading water perilously. Not to be ignored is the $5K level is in the same revenue raiser group as the R level. Everyone knows all that. How do you raise the $5K without minimising your profit/revenue from those? I don't know exactly where the average/line is. Is it 5.5, 6K, undoubtedly a lot to do with programming, creating turnover.

    Is it too radical, can I say democratically unacceptable, to offer only two tiers? We still have conditioned racing. Previously we raced for something like C0-C2 $6.4K, C3- $6.7. Some people weren't happy with only 3 or $400 separating faster assessed and slower. Now we race for $5K and if you win a 7K it's wow! People will even congratulate you emphasising it was a $7K race, wow I'm racing at the elite level!

    If we could max C at 8K which might mean no, or very little 10K as well as probably keeping R at 3.5K, would this be an unacceptable race card:-
    At the extreme, C0 $8000 trainer less than 5 wins last season no faster than 2.01. C5 $8000 open/ffa RBD?

    C5 owners disgruntled? But you have a C5 today and tomorrow a C0? Or both at the same time? Just like the "fall-back" thought on R races, there if your potential champ isn't, the horses that move through the classes aim for increased prize money via minor and major feature races? And if you're not quite that quality you also have the drop back. Not too bad to be dropping back to 8K?

    May well be the opposite of the trickle down economy but what we're seeing with the Breeders crown, well, if history shows the greater number of horses only win at the lowest levels, would upping that prize money level encourage that money to be reinvested? "I don't have to go to the top, top, stallions...will have another look at that other yearling at the sales"?

  2. #22
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Peter V is a smart operator Wayne, he's selling tickets now, come Melbourne Cup week he"ll probably announce the prizemoney is doubling!

    "Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?)"

    Has been some information provided to participants in meetings ( on multiple topics) and a mail out. As I understand it there have been delays as a result of difficulties with RISE getting the required software changes into HARvey. I haven't been to Gloucester Park for a while but I'm told there are tutorials, or at lest a chance to view the new system available to participants during race days.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Adaptor will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by arlington View Post
    One question. Why didn't Peter V wait for Melbourne Cup week to announce

    That announcement, concept, and the current Breeders Crown discussion, interesting.


    In regards to the Breeders Crown http://www.harnessracingforum.com/sh...Breeders-Crown three years ago to the day.
    The BC has moved a long way from it's inception as the Bendigo Breeders Crown. Sure, bigger prize money for the ABC and it's not surprising the word elitist has come up and that's a long way from the BBC. (I think Kyle was on the money. Initially, as the BBC, heats were run in Vic, although Peter Walsh won with Flubber (a name for Kev) early on so whether there were NSW heats at least?)

    I'm not sure if there is anything constructive in my memories of something that felt good when the BBC final day was first run. Heaps of people, participants at all levels, felt good, happy. Easy for me to think/recall now it was happy days until it became the ABC. I'm obviously a Vic participant.

    Now we have the marquee/area for participating owners on final day at Melton. Not a bad thing. BBC we had, I should say Bendigo HRC had a fair, field days atmosphere to it. Noel, Adaptor might like to add? I'm not sure where I'm going with this but the BBC felt like it encompassed all.

    The relevance might be the C $5000 prize money level against the Australasian Breeders Crown. Considering that most ABC entrants have come and will continue to come from Vic it would be questionable if the ABC could continue even at the elite, I won't say elitist, level with a C5k tier. Doubt very much if R4K will do much either. I go back to wondering what's wrong with two tiers. R3.5/4K and max the C prizemoney, one tier, regardless of assessment or quality.

    Vic will move to $ handicapping/assessment(?) like NSW and probably WA. (Where is WA at with the proposal to their participants?) Considering we are moving to a national system still(?)

    Amongst other factors, the increase to the R $ level may well be a "reward" for funding the $10K races as well as a great percentage of $7K races. Leaves the $5K level treading water perilously. Not to be ignored is the $5K level is in the same revenue raiser group as the R level. Everyone knows all that. How do you raise the $5K without minimising your profit/revenue from those? I don't know exactly where the average/line is. Is it 5.5, 6K, undoubtedly a lot to do with programming, creating turnover.

    Is it too radical, can I say democratically unacceptable, to offer only two tiers? We still have conditioned racing. Previously we raced for something like C0-C2 $6.4K, C3- $6.7. Some people weren't happy with only 3 or $400 separating faster assessed and slower. Now we race for $5K and if you win a 7K it's wow! People will even congratulate you emphasising it was a $7K race, wow I'm racing at the elite level!

    If we could max C at 8K which might mean no, or very little 10K as well as probably keeping R at 3.5K, would this be an unacceptable race card:-
    At the extreme, C0 $8000 trainer less than 5 wins last season no faster than 2.01. C5 $8000 open/ffa RBD?

    C5 owners disgruntled? But you have a C5 today and tomorrow a C0? Or both at the same time? Just like the "fall-back" thought on R races, there if your potential champ isn't, the horses that move through the classes aim for increased prize money via minor and major feature races? And if you're not quite that quality you also have the drop back. Not too bad to be dropping back to 8K?

    May well be the opposite of the trickle down economy but what we're seeing with the Breeders crown, well, if history shows the greater number of horses only win at the lowest levels, would upping that prize money level encourage that money to be reinvested? "I don't have to go to the top, top, stallions...will have another look at that other yearling at the sales"?
    The first Bendigo Breeders Breeders Crown consisted of two race meetings.
    Heats were at Lord's Raceway on Friday night, May 1, 1998
    Finals on Sunday, May 3.
    The City of Bendigo really got behind the promotion, with Tourism the big focus.
    It really was like country field days!

    It's 20 years this year!
    Last edited by Adaptor; 07-20-2018 at 12:19 PM.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    I remember Flubber winning the breeders challenge, I didn't think there was a heat in NSW. Rightly or wrongly our industry has changed since those days, whilst there have always been better sires, better bred horses, and better performing stables I don't think the divide has ever been as great as it is today. I don't think it is reasonable for series such as the breeders crown and Vicbred to continue on with everyone under the same umbrella and an increasingly smaller number of participants principally funding a series that many have realistically little prospect of success in.

    We need to be more innovative and come up with concepts such as the Everest and the Kosciusko, city country is perhaps not the right divide for harness racing but I'm sure there is one. The decline in profitability for small breeders and their exit from the industry, and future impact on racings viability is not restricted to our country or code as this report shows:

    https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstoc...reeders/339520

    We can't continue with piecemeal band aid fixes, we need a "whole" of industry approach. Perhaps we need to start our juvenile racing with more of a bang, a change to calendar year as has been mooted for a while, the introduction of a fixed start date proceeded by breakfast or lunch with the babies type mass qualifying days for babies showcasing our breeding industry and opportunities to enter the industry before the baby races start. Maybe there is a way to revive a Bendigo Breeders Crown field day style atmosphere, if we don't look we won't find it.

    For now Wayne I'm with you while we still have the R, C and M type handicapping system there should be a distinctive difference in prizemoney between the 3, let the race conditions determine who is eligible where, and vary those conditions to restrict or ease entry to a particular race, and which horses and participants and horses are a little as advantaged or disadvantaged each program. If we introduce prizemoney based handicapping then the gradient can be more gradual with horses overall and recent earnings predominantly determine eligibility for races rather then their assesment.

    Whilst we drag the chain on introducing a new handicapping system handicapping based on prizemoney has been used to good effect in NA for a long time, but this is now becoming superseeded by some tracks introducing formation of the fields using ratings provided by Trackmaster, a private company providing a computer generated ratings program designed to rate runners on a number of performance factors not just prizemoney for punters. Maybe it's time we stopped looking to catch up and started looking ahead of the game.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator Stallion Messenger will become famous soon enough Messenger's Avatar
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    It is WRONG that the AUSTRALIAN PACING GOLD MELBOURNE AUTUMN SALE FINAL is a Gp2 on Saturday at Melton

    If you are wondering how 10th in the heats made the final the answer is there was only 1 heat and now the same 10 horses go around in the final for $50k!

    http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?m...rc=MXM28071807
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Stallion aussiebreno is just really nice aussiebreno is just really nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messenger View Post
    It is WRONG that the AUSTRALIAN PACING GOLD MELBOURNE AUTUMN SALE FINAL is a Gp2 on Saturday at Melton

    If you are wondering how 10th in the heats made the final the answer is there was only 1 heat and now the same 10 horses go around in the final for $50k!

    http://www.harness.org.au/form.cfm?m...rc=MXM28071807
    Just like the Vicbred Silver and Bronze it is ridiculous. I wonder how much advertising $50,000 would get you in the Herald Sun or Triple M radio, or a top band to try and get people to the track on APG finals night?

  7. #27
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    The magic millions is the equivalent series for the TBs and the principle race, the magic millions 2yo Classic on the Gold Coast is only a restricted listed race with its around $2million in prizemoney, because of the restricted entry to the race by having to be a sales graduate. The support races around the country funded by the concept carry no additional status but distribute higher then usual levels of prizemoney to supporters of the sale.

    It is arguable that without the competition posed by the Inglis sales provide to the Magic Millions sale our best yearlings are sold through the APG sales (if they are sold at all) and the final should carry group status, but it is never the less a restricted entry level race and therefore should not carry group 1 status regardless of prizemoney, and its subsidiary races should not carry group status either.

    The homegrown series carrying group 2 status based on its $50k prizemoney with an entry restricted to horses with limited prizemoney is the opposite of what group racing is intended to do, and that is identify and give enduring status for breeding purposes to the best horses, not the best horse in a restricted field. As the Vicbred silver and gold prohibits horses that made the final of the primary series participating, that is the best horses in the series then they shouldn't have group status either. Certainly buyer beware when these horses appear in pedigrees at the sales in the future.

    The APG series raise the stakes money for its races from vendors and buyers and this money should principly be returned to those investors through stakes money, not spent on excessive amounts of promotion to draw people through the gate on raceday. Whilst we'd all like to see more people at the races getting them there through other drawcards and social activities on track can be counterproductive as whilst people attracted this way can be good for a clubs bottom line on the day these people rarely become long term investors in racing, and genuine race goers can be discouraged from attending by rowdy crowds not primarily interested in the racing.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Amlin will become famous soon enough Amlin's Avatar
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    The Thursday night meeting at Cranbourne is probably not a good indicator for the sports future...but is a good example for open nominations at some meetings in my opinion as at least every horse trained locally ready to race would have entered, not just the nine that had a race on for them.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year gutwagon will become famous soon enough gutwagon's Avatar
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    I notice that todays Cranbourne meeting has two 5 horse fields. So they must have changed the minimum field size from 6 to 5 . There's an indicator for the industry. At least owners get more chance to race their horses but if they can't turn the lack of owners and breeders around quickly we are in big trouble.
    Don't die wondering !

  10. #30
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Amlin will become famous soon enough Amlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutwagon View Post
    I notice that todays Cranbourne meeting has two 5 horse fields. So they must have changed the minimum field size from 6 to 5 . There's an indicator for the industry. At least owners get more chance to race their horses but if they can't turn the lack of owners and breeders around quickly we are in big trouble.
    I would say five horse fields would be used only where the meeting may fall over otherwise, though I may be wrong

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