Drivers' Colours or Not?

[arlington]

Talking purely driver promotion, why not a driver meet n greet before the first Breeders Crown day? Marquis, trestle on the lawn in front of the winning post. Or, is there a big enough area to have a small marquis/tent for the whole day between the stables and the grandstand/ race day offices? Perhaps the course commentator could announce when particular drivers will be at the tent (when they haven't a driving engagement).

Might be taking it too far but you'd have to have tv monitors so the drivers can keep up with the races and it might be novel that a driver might engage with a fan a little during the running of, about, that race?

No need for colours let alone driver colours, however they could wear their pants, have their helmets...they could have skivvies with their name.
Although, a lot of people would be just as, hopefully excited to see the drivers, in their civvies. A bit more personable, (yes, opposed to pedestal)...a bigger thrill to see your favorite footy, sports, player in the supermarket than away on the field(?). I'll use the Bont, AFL Buldogs captain. On the field he wears the same colours as all the team, could never go with individual footy player colours, but a lot of people like to think they get a glimpse of the person. Don't know how the Bont dresses, grunge...hipster...crotch below his knees...007 but in civvies he's still admirable, the aura but real-er...an every day person or kiddy could aspire.

Definitely no fence sitting, I can't agree going to driver colours will do much for us, at all. Sounds, again, a bit of change for change's sake. In the case of North America, are the drivers instrumental in retaining poker machine revenue? Seems to me their enjoyment of self promotion is backed by the pokies more so than their colours.
If drivers can lobby Mr Pakula to somehow double our total prizemoney, I'll forgo the pic on the wall with my owner colours...maybe I still wouldn't.

Was interested to hear what some of the younger, progressive, media people were saying. Caught a replay of In The Gig. Jason Bonington, his thoughts, agreed with more horse and driver promotion but not driver colours. I think Brittany Graham may have been each way. I'll take that as a no.

Another thing that's interesting is the default for colours in Harnessweb is driver colours. Meaning trainers have to consciously select owner or trainer colours. Some might say their owners and themselves might be living in the past, selfishly holding the sport back, as the great majority would see selections of either owner or trainer colour. But I doubt it's holding us back.

Like the thoroughbred owners and trainers, owner pays the bills, the trainer toils for much much longer than two minutes. And using the gallopers as an example I really couldn't see any benefits for them going to jockey colours.

Haven't been here for a bit so I'll throw another one in. Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.

And just one more. I'll whisper - here in Vic, not a great idea to be thinking about driver colours whilst VCAT is in the integrity mix.

[Dot]

Kev I can put you in touch with Scott if you like. You obviously wouldn’t except an explanation from me anyway.


“Scott Hamilton
@scottyhamilton
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@Hillbomber

@AdamTABSports
and 4 others
As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely...”

Or perhaps you want to look him for yourself - Scott Hamilton Media.

And he’s not some Johnny come lately to either to his profession or the industry. Born and bred into the industry in fact.

Given the declining state of the industry over the past 30 years just what is the case you are presenting for owner/trainer colours other then that is what we done for over 30 years? Is it just that for you Kev, with no skin in the game as you freely admit, it’s just too inconvenient to learn something new?

Regulars can determine who’s who much of the time through other means but doesn’t mean the task couldn’t or shouldn’t be made easier for them and newcomers by regular driver colours.

Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours. That yours or my brain may not function as it once did does not mean that the thousands of other people out there can not recognise variations in colour and pattern or symbols. Limited exposure on Sky prerace does mean we need to maximise people ability to recognise who, both equine and human is on the track, greyhound number colouring provides that for the horses, though I’ve no doubt the numbers could be better designed and brighter. Driver colours do that for the humans, aided by increasing amounts of visual social media coverage which provides images of drivers in people’s minds that people are more readily adept at recognising more rapidly over time. If trainers are afraid of losing their identity or “brand” there is no reason they could not customise the colours of their horses equipment to match their own. No doubt you won’t believe me but that works very well in countries with driver colours. Go back and replay Kate Hargreaves interview lamenting she would lose her “brand” if we went to driver colours. Even she admitted that her owners failed to recognise her horses not when her driver wasn’t wearing her colours but when she borrowed a cart and her horses did not have the purple wheels. I’ve no doubt we could improve our product further if all trainers paid attention to their “brand” and turned their horses out accordingly. Some do, and it shows.

Greyhound colours on drivers have been tried here Kev, they were the subject of a presentation to the World Trotting Conference in 1999 by Sam Nati when he worked for Sky. It took some time before he could try it but try it he did as CEO at HRNSW. It was not a great success or well received by the industry or punters alike. Whilst they may have, along with the matching saddle cloth number, aided a complete novice spectator/punter as you say in relating a runner in the field to a number on a piece of paper and a starting position in the field, for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers. Let me put it simply Kev greyhounds do not have jockeys or drivers ( part of the reason no doubt they are popular with some punters) We have drivers and being able to identify them individually is important to our wagering turnover as there can be no doubt their capabilities make a substantive contribution to the out come of a race.

As I’ve said before it is not all about just promoting drivers, it also isn’t about “dumbing” the sport down in the extreme to make it as simplistic as can be for the completely uninitiated spectator, it’s about creating a more recognisable promotable sport for benefit of everyone.

“When trainers or owners give up their colours it is to promote a cause or event”

Yes it is Kev, and it does so very effectively. Is it such a stretch to believe that doing so more broadly across the industry could promote the entire industry just as effectively.

Go back and reread Scott’s tweet at the beginning of this post Kev. No one pro driver colours in the debate has called for the prohibition of owners/trainers colours just that driver colours are a better marketing tool for the industry and should be more widely used. I’ve advocated here for there use, but show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?

People are naturally resistant to change, non moreso then in this industry, but I contend that a switch to emphasising driver colours over others will not see the mass walk out some predict. Moreso that, like with the American carts ( no doubt to Dannos chagrin) if some lead in time many others will follow.

[Messenger]

I do not want to spend a lot of time replying to incorrect statements


Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours

We are not talking about recognizing colours we are talking about REMEMBERING them (and we/you were not talking about regulars)
Lets say Dan is in drivers colours and he chooses his green with black sash and orange bands - pretty distinct actually
But I maintain that if I found a casual punter who had a bet on him today, and I asked him/her to pick his colours this time next month that I would be happy to be the bookmaker
With so many watching on small screens like phones is anything except simple patterns/colours even going to be recognizable

We all know about marketing successes like the Red of Coca-Cola or the Purple of Cadbury.
Simple colours with enormous exposure/marketing behind them
I am not necessarily for greyhound colours either although we agree they help spot horses but where are the findings that said:
for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.

I re-read the opening (why?) and I once again see Scott wants colours to promote A driver as a brand - he is talking about promoting A driver - where is there proof that this would work for the individual much less have a benefit for the industry
I looked up Scott on facebook - I see he has been in business for less than 3yrs. I don't doubt that he does good work for which he has won awards. As far as his facebook page - I must be too old for I am confused by his opening pin as to what Change has been Coming Soon since December 2018

Finally show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?
Did anybody say this? You show me where?

Once again I will state that if you can get trainers/owners on board - have a trial and show us some results because you have not supplied any evidence as to where it has improved any industry
Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are

[Galli]

Can't believe we are talking about colours and saving the industry in the same sentence...

In Europe drivers use their own colours which are covered in sponsors' ads. Those colours don't "open" to an occasional spectator. You have to be more involved to be able to recognise them. Our colours are easier to follow but I reckon the same applies here as well. Can't see colours making any difference whatsoever in getting new people in.

Handicapping (no, haven't bothered looking into the new system anymore) and programming races together with sufficient integrity measures are the only things keeping participants in the game - in my opinion anyway. Like someone said - trainers we currently have, will bring new people into the industry (stablehands turn into trainers and personal connection between the trainer and public will bring in new owners).

[Dot]

Talking purely driver promotion, why not a driver meet n greet before the first Breeders Crown day? Marquis, trestle on the lawn in front of the winning post. Or, is there a big enough area to have a small marquis/tent for the whole day between the stables and the grandstand/ race day offices? Perhaps the course commentator could announce when particular drivers will be at the tent (when they haven't a driving engagement).

Might be taking it too far but you'd have to have tv monitors so the drivers can keep up with the races and it might be novel that a driver might engage with a fan a little during the running of, about, that race?

No need for colours let alone driver colours, however they could wear their pants, have their helmets...they could have skivvies with their name.
Although, a lot of people would be just as, hopefully excited to see the drivers, in their civvies. A bit more personable, (yes, opposed to pedestal)...a bigger thrill to see your favorite footy, sports, player in the supermarket than away on the field(?). I'll use the Bont, AFL Buldogs captain. On the field he wears the same colours as all the team, could never go with individual footy player colours, but a lot of people like to think they get a glimpse of the person. Don't know how the Bont dresses, grunge...hipster...crotch below his knees...007 but in civvies he's still admirable, the aura but real-er...an every day person or kiddy could aspire.

Definitely no fence sitting, I can't agree going to driver colours will do much for us, at all. Sounds, again, a bit of change for change's sake. In the case of North America, are the drivers instrumental in retaining poker machine revenue? Seems to me their enjoyment of self promotion is backed by the pokies more so than their colours.
If drivers can lobby Mr Pakula to somehow double our total prizemoney, I'll forgo the pic on the wall with my owner colours...maybe I still wouldn't.

Was interested to hear what some of the younger, progressive, media people were saying. Caught a replay of In The Gig. Jason Bonington, his thoughts, agreed with more horse and driver promotion but not driver colours. I think Brittany Graham may have been each way. I'll take that as a no.

Another thing that's interesting is the default for colours in Harnessweb is driver colours. Meaning trainers have to consciously select owner or trainer colours. Some might say their owners and themselves might be living in the past, selfishly holding the sport back, as the great majority would see selections of either owner or trainer colour. But I doubt it's holding us back.

Like the thoroughbred owners and trainers, owner pays the bills, the trainer toils for much much longer than two minutes. And using the gallopers as an example I really couldn't see any benefits for them going to jockey colours.

Haven't been here for a bit so I'll throw another one in. Some industry insiders who support driver colours do so in support of their association with a particular driver/s. It's not necessarily an improvement to the bottom line of the industry as a whole they're thinking about.

And just one more. I'll whisper - here in Vic, not a great idea to be thinking about driver colours whilst VCAT is in the integrity mix.

Not a follower of AFL but before someone becomes a follower of a particular player “undressed” so to speak musnt they first become a follower of that player in his “tribal” uniform and learn to identify him, or indeed now her, a process aided by making the uniform unique by the addition of a number and a name?

Has the default setting in harnessweb always been driver colours? Been a few years since I’ve had to enter one, and I seem to recall that trainer colours was the default setting then as trainers need to have colours whilst drivers I don’t believe currently do have to have registered colours.

Thanks to agreements previously signed with Sky the gallops are guaranteed a minimum lead in time of 90 seconds before a race and to remain on Sky 1, something as David Martin wrote trots can only dream off. That reduces the need or benefit of Jockeys wearing jockey colours as the coverage of the pre race barrier loading gives viewers ample time to identify visually and from the commentary which horse and jockey is which and which colours the jockey is wearing. Gallopers also wear uniform coloured numbers.

The gallops are no comparison with our product which has barely any lead in time and is frequently sharing a split screen on Sky 2. And Sky has excercised their option to extend the current contract until 2024.

Care to elaborate on the second last paragraph? Or do you just want to through every supposed “industry insider”under the bus as corrupt and only seeking to feather their own nest if they have a different view to driver colours to yours. An inaccurate and unfair assertion in my opinion.

Similarly the last paragraph is too cryptic for me. What does VCAT in the integrity mix have to do with driver colours? In any case post 1 August VCAT will more or less not be in the integrity mix with their role then being only able to adjudicate on points of law, not rehear cases. Presumably if an owner or trainer was aggrieved at not being able to use “their colours” they could challenge it under restraint of trade, not integrity, only that wouldn’t happen because no one is calling for any kind of restraint of trade on trainer and owner colours, just more promotion and widespread use of driver colours.

[Danno]

No Danno not late just rooted in the past. The debate is not about what has been but about the need to change and innovate in order to stem the decline in interest in our sport, which is a worldwide phenomenon. The United States is not the only country to use driver colours, and support for driver colours is not because the United States use them but because the professionals and young people involved in marketing our sport here in Australia say that they can build a much superior brand and promotion for our industry using drivers and driver colours then they are able to do now.

“What the game needs in my humble opinion, is to reconnect with the "man on the street", this can best be done by increasing participation levels”

How do we increase participation levels if we do not first reconnect with the “man on the street” ? And isn’t this the space our young social media professionals operate in, shouldn’t we heed their advice?

The most effective syndication model in the industry in the world for small shares in inexpensive horses connecting the men and women “on the street” through word of mouth via social media is thestable.ca in Canada. Canada is a country that uses driver colours, so clearly driver colours are no barrier to increasing participation levels there.

There is no doubt Danno that known drivers are a benefit to increasing turnover, I had this conversation in Sydney with Sam Nati on more then one occasion. And one of the most marked venues that turnover increased when known Sydney drivers attended was your home track of Newcastle. Making drivers more known and identifiable can only be of further benefit to turnover. I’ve little doubt increased participation levels would be beneficial for turnover, but as we know they have been in steady decline for about three decades, all the while whilst the trainer/owner colours you are advocating for have been in use, and yet you steadfastly resist the notion that we should try change?

We currently use the standardised “greyhound” numbers and variable “thoroughbred” owner/trainer colours, wouldn’t we be leveraging our uniqueness if we went to drivers using their own uniquely identifiable colours? And there is of course currently nothing preventing an owner or trainer decking out their horse in their own colours.

Don’t you feel just a little bit hypocritical Danno? Or has the indigenous driver series changed? Don’t the trainers and owners who provide the horses for these races give up their colours in order for you to wear your unique driver colours?

Dot,

please reread my post and take it all in not just the bits you have jumped at, BTW I didn't see any stats to back up this very silly proposal, I know it's not your idea, but you are the one running the gauntlet for it, try some facts please Dot. I'm not into debate for debates sake and you haven't presented any facts at all just a pitiful swipe. You are old enough to know that not all new ideas are good ones, maybe you need to take a cold shower on this one hey?

BTW Dot the indigenous heats are all run in the usual colours the horse races in. The Final, ( Just one of the races in the series) the drivers wear an indigenous design that is a "one off" for that day.
Not their personal colours and the colours are never worn again. Repeat NOT the drivers colours.

Suggest if you want to accurately slight people you should probably get a better understanding of what a hypocrite is, lest you might appear to be one yourself.

I'd suggest some reading Dot, might calm your nerves a little as well!

[Messenger]

Dot,

"Or do you just want to through every supposed “industry insider”under the bus as corrupt and only seeking to feather their own nest if they have a different view to driver colours to yours."

Please stop this nonsense. We do not expect people to nominate specific names. You know this as well as anyone that licensees have to be circumspect in what they say - the reason why you all email me with some of your thoughts (for me to post)
As for saying Wayne has done something vindictive and only because they have a different opinion to his is just off by you on 2 counts IMO

[Dot]

I do not want to spend a lot of time replying to incorrect statements


Obviously Kev you think that all persons who don’t follow harness racing are simpletons or lack visual acuity, why on earth otherwise would you think that they have no ability to recognise anything beyond a simple primary colour as driver colours

We are not talking about recognizing colours we are talking about REMEMBERING them (and we/you were not talking about regulars)
Lets say Dan is in drivers colours and he chooses his green with black sash and orange bands - pretty distinct actually
But I maintain that if I found a casual punter who had a bet on him today, and I asked him/her to pick his colours this time next month that I would be happy to be the bookmaker
With so many watching on small screens like phones is anything except simple patterns/colours even going to be recognizable

We all know about marketing successes like the Red of Coca-Cola or the Purple of Cadbury.
Simple colours with enormous exposure/marketing behind them
I am not necessarily for greyhound colours either although we agree they help spot horses but where are the findings that said:
for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.

I re-read the opening (why?) and I once again see Scott wants colours to promote A driver as a brand - he is talking about promoting A driver - where is there proof that this would work for the individual much less have a benefit for the industry
I looked up Scott on facebook - I see he has been in business for less than 3yrs. I don't doubt that he does good work for which he has won awards. As far as his facebook page - I must be too old for I am confused by his opening pin as to what Change has been Coming Soon since December 2018

Finally show me where I have written all other options must be withdrawn?
Did anybody say this? You show me where?

Once again I will state that if you can get trainers/owners on board - have a trial and show us some results because you have not supplied any evidence as to where it has improved any industry
Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are

I see you’ve removed the threat to flounce Kev.


verb
verb: recognise
1.
identify (someone or something) from having encountered them before; know again.

remember

verb
1.
have in or be able to bring to one's mind an awareness of (someone or something from the past).

English certainly wasn’t my strong suit but aren’t recognise and remember essentially the same thing?

And I’ve not been talking solely about regulars or non regulars but driver colours on the whole.

There are multiple factors that go into how well and how quickly someone would learn to recognise/remember a set of colours and they aren’t limited to the device they are being viewed on. Surfice to say those factors include the significance of those colours to someone, say for example they’d had a large bet on Danno in those colours when he won at 175 to 1 for example. Or those particular colours bore some special significance to them out side of racing. And of course how frequently they are seen and for how long they are seen also comes into it. Be careful with that book Kev you may get stung.

On your arguememt seems there are no benefit to individual trainer and owner colours either for your saying no one can recognise/remember those either. As for the findings on the greyhound colours trial well I don’t think they were ever published anywhere, so I guess you’ll just have to take my word for it. Of course I was actually training in Sydney at the time and attended the meetings at Menangle where they were used, and discussed them with my fellow participants and along with my fellow participants and the punters provided feed back to Sam Nati on them, and the consensus was “for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers.”

Think it was about this time of year, end of or early in new season at least 5 maybe more years ago in a series known as The Flying K from memory if you want to check up further on me. That NSW didn’t continue on with Sams pet project of greyhound colours on drivers should tell you all you need to know about the success of them as a driver of turnover.

I can see you have very much miss represented what Scott posted on twitter, here is the exact wording again, nothing like the “A” driver that you claim but EACH driver and for the better reputation of the sport.

“As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely..”

Where is your proof Kev that it would not work? And I see you carefully cherry picked from Scott’s bio that Scott Hamilton Media has been in existence for around 3 years for your post whilst I’m equally certain you read that Scott’s experience in media news and marketing is in the order of 11 years. How does he know it would work, it’s his job to both know it would work and how to make it work.

Don’t think I have the profile needed to change the sport Kev but I clearly don’t need to get at least one high profile trainer on board. And credit where credit due Shane has been one of if not the most active trainer to push for change for the benefit of all trainers and the industry. Shane was a major contributor to the metropolitan handicapping system in use at Menangle which is very popular with participants and punters alike, contributed considerably to the National ratings scheme and is pushing for STB trainers receiving a starters fee as TB trainers do and that looks like going ahead in NSW.


TEAM TRITTON
@Tritton_Team
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@AdamTABSports

@buangboy
and
@CricketAus
Drivers should drive with their own colours with their names on the back .... let the sport promote our rock stars ... yes trainers and owners need to be recognised but we need to be bigger then that to promote our sport
13

TEAM TRITTON
@Tritton_Team
·
Jul 8
Replying to
@AdamTABSports

@buangboy
and
@CricketAus
We are a stable that using more owner and training Colors then anyone I would think.. and I believe the sport need to start doing what the nrl does .. u go to a game and the players are in the big screen pumped up for people to follow and idealise drivers should be our rockstars


As for this Kev

“Not a big fan of change for change sake
I actually like being able to spot where the multiple runners for a stable are”

How does driver colours stop you spoting where the multiple runners for a stable are given that very frequently they are in individual owner colours and not the trainer colours when that happens anyway. Take Emma Stewart’s first four in the Vicbred 3yo Colts final for example. So what you really want is a change for your sake to all in trainers colours?

[Dot]

Dot,

please reread my post and take it all in not just the bits you have jumped at, BTW I didn't see any stats to back up this very silly proposal, I know it's not your idea, but you are the one running the gauntlet for it, try some facts please Dot. I'm not into debate for debates sake and you haven't presented any facts at all just a pitiful swipe. You are old enough to know that not all new ideas are good ones, maybe you need to take a cold shower on this one hey?

BTW Dot the indigenous heats are all run in the usual colours the horse races in. The Final, ( Just one of the races in the series) the drivers wear an indigenous design that is a "one off" for that day.
Not their personal colours and the colours are never worn again. Repeat NOT the drivers colours.

Suggest if you want to accurately slight people you should probably get a better understanding of what a hypocrite is, lest you might appear to be one yourself.

I'd suggest some reading Dot, might calm your nerves a little as well!

Rest assured Danno I did read your entire post, including the unsubstantiated swipes that following the “septics” is the cause of much of what ails the industry. How is that fact not just your opinion. If I erred on the indigenous serious I apologise.

So Danno professionals in media and marketing back the proposal but I’m just to take your word for it that “it is very silly”

And really Danno I “need to take a cold shower” or “read to calm my nerves”

How about something substantive about your claim that this is “a very silly proposal”

[Messenger]

I will give a flounce Dot
You are bad for the tone of this forum - you may not realize it but you are a keyboard warrior who has rarely shown herself to be graceful in debate

Nonsense again:
"On your arguememt seems there are no benefit to individual trainer and owner colours either for your saying no one can recognise/remember those either"
You conveniently forget that we are not talking about regular diehards. OF COURSE REGULARS RECOGNIZE THEM (even driving styles - remember your point). You brought up that we are doing it for occasional punters that we want coming back

No, I won't believe you for at present I believe that you see this thread as a debate for winning and I think you believe in winning at all costs
Twice you have used the wording:
"for most watchers, punters and participants they served to de identify the horses and particularly the drivers."
I assume then that you have a document stating this

“As a promoter I can do WAY more for each driver as a brand if they had their own set of silks and identity. Drivers are the best promoters we have and you can build a better reputation for the sport if they are used more widely..”
I still think that the benefit is potentially WAY more for each driver but I am not really convinced. I am not sure I agree that drivers are the best promoters of the sport - we don't get much out of them and rarely anything of interest (very few are media savvy). As I said before - if one shows themself to be a natural we will use them until the cows come home (and if we manage to get a public profile for him/her - give him/her GOLD colours)

We will put Shane down for pro - I reckon it will also earn him points with his rockstar wife

You still have provided ZERO proof of Driver's colours helping any country/industry or even proof that this is what has contributed to any driver's profile being lifted
You are the one advocating change - it is you that has to provide proof - it is not for me/others to prove it will not work

Of course trainers colours are not always a guide and I don't really care that much otherwise I would not support a trial of drivers colours if those that count wish it (saying that for the 3rd time now)

And so you got your finishing line
"So what you really want is a change for your sake to all in trainers colours?"
from your book of nonsense? Or did you think "Ah, this will be a clever little finish"

ps Whether recognize and remember are the same thing I am still happy to be the bookmaker