Reply With QuoteHi
There was a discussion about stallions about 4wks ago it's heading is Bettors delight 600 go back through there and read people posts and that will give you an idea on peoples reaction to the question you have asked.
When will the number of mares a stallion can be served be capped at a certain number say 200 like in the thoroughbred industry. Don't people think by having stallions serving such high numbers of broodmares we are going to ruin the harness racing industry by reducing the genetic pool, especially with the number of colonial sires currently standing in both NZ and Australia? Or are we going to rely on Northern hemisphere stallions to introduce new blood into the bred down under?
Hi
There was a discussion about stallions about 4wks ago it's heading is Bettors delight 600 go back through there and read people posts and that will give you an idea on peoples reaction to the question you have asked.
That problem is more of a problem here in the states than it would be down under as we are jammed with the same blood. I think that it will not be long before the US breeders will be looking to New Zealand and Australia for more outcross blood. I can see that day but the breeders here will not believe it but believe me it will happen. The likes of Lombo Pocket Watch, Christian Cullen, Auckland Reactor if he gets back on track etc etc etc. There must be others there. Oh I just thought of Changeover as he is by In The Pocket, a great horse that never got a go here in the US as he was owned by George Shaw an unpopular guy here and I do not believe a horse owned by one man has much of a chance here unless a major stud gets behind him or he is syndicated.Originally Posted by peacheymagic
Considering both the origins & the relatively tender age of the Standardbred breed, the suggestion that anything even approaching a scientifically measurable reduction in the Standardbred gene pool is occurring carries about as much weight as Al Gore's now rather infamous Global Warming routine.
Both are thinly veiled ‘scare campaigns’ that have rather sadly been allowed to flourish as a result of entire generations that apparently failed to pay attention during High School Biology, Chemistry and Geography classes.
The domestic Horse has 64 Haploid (individual) or otherwise 32 Diploid (pairs) Chromosomes.
Upon those 64 individual or 32 pairs of Chromosomes some 20,000 individual genes & approximately 3 billion DNA bases are to be found.
Individual DNA markers located on just one of those 64 Chromosome number as high as 10,000.
Further to this, across individual breeds researchers have identified more than 940,000 DNA sequence variations, referred to as SNP's (Single-nucleotide polymorphisms).
Now add the seemingly endless combinations of the above to the fact the Standardbred breed traces to a very wide variety of sources including but not limited to Thoroughbreds, Morgans, Hackneys, Arabs and Norfolk Trotters and that the Standardbred Stud Book was first formed in the USA in 1879, a mere 131 years ago.
Ken Jackson and that hired gun Geneticist guy tried on a similarly thick on emotive and rhetoric but thin on science kind of 'the sky is falling, the gene pool is shrinking' routine to build a case for Christian Cullen when he went North to stand at Kentuckiana. It didn’t cope particularly well with close scrutiny back then either.
Maybe this thread popping up again is the heads up that Dobby’s going to send the great horse back to the US for another whirl?
Hey Thomas, you’re not really Ken getting on here and pretending to be someone else are you? :-P
Why not have a limit on a number of mares a stallion can serve though, by doing this we won't end up with a narrow gene pool later down the track? Although "no scientifically measurable reduction in the standardbred gene pool" may be occurring that is not to say that more horses are not sharing more of the same genes hence reducing the genetic variability amongst the bred. With more horses sharing more of the same genes the variability within a population is reduced. Furthermore once rare genes are gone from a population (selected against- ie. horses with traits caused by these genes are not bred from) genetic diversity relies on mutations to introduce new genes into a population. As for Christian Cullen not being well received in the US I believe that is due to the perception that harness racing down under is inferior to that of the US, breeders see that Christian Cullen has not run under 1.50 so don't want to bred to him as he must be rubbish when horses in the US are running 1.48.
A Breeding Panel that has been set up by Australian Harness Racing is looking into "leveling the playing field" is this refering to the numbers being breed? I get the feeling that they will recommend the possibilty of an introduction of limited services in the future..hahahaha
Well, it follows that if overall improvements in the speed marks, physical refinement, racing soundness & so on in the Standardbred breed had begun to slowly plateau or if it had gone as far as having pretty much ceased all-together, as is the case now with Thoroughbreds, or perish the thought...if genuine evidence of regression began to appear, then the 'shrinking gene pool' argument...aka the let's restrict stallion books routine...would have legs upon which to stand.
To my knowledge, this is not yet the case. I am yet to see so much as a single peer reviewed, scientific study which suggests that this or anything even remotely resembling it... is actually occurring. In fact, rather than the breed genetically stalling or regressing, I believe we are fortunate enough to find ourselves with a front row seat and so a close-up view of the next great leap forward in the evolution of the Standardbred, the two stallions most likely to be responsible for it for mine being Somebeachsomewhere and Muscle Hill. I think we should embrace these great horses and those like them by trying to get as much of their genetics into the breed as is physically possible rather than continually seeking out ways in which to restrict their influence and so further the influence on the breed of a series of lesser lights.
As an aside, but along that general line...isn't a significant amount of genetic diversity within a given population the very thing that livestock breeders in general and throughout the world are forever trying to avoid by way of actively & continually weeding out sub-par or unsuitable genes in favour of the superior, suitable genes?
Last edited by triplev123; 12-27-2010 at 12:26 AM. Reason: hit post too quickly, not finished.
You are 100% right in that these two horse are likely to have a large influence on the standardbred but if we breed say 500 mares a year to these stallions in 10 generations time (approximately 50 years) presuming great sons of these horses also serve 500 mares a year what situation will the industry be in. Once we see a plateau in race times it is too late to act and restrict stallion books we need to think for the future now.As for speed marks I think technological advances in race sulkys and smaller tracks make it difficult to say that the times horses are running now are not being masked by these advances. I sure believe on a track like Menangle with an american style sulky Christian Cullen would be able to run 1.50 but he only ran 1.54 so does this mean our current top liners like Monkey King are superior? I know in NZ it is great to be able to target the type of horse you bred by having a large number of stallions with different characteristics to bred from. Breeders have the ability to try and breed a nz cup (2 mile) horse or a age group star by selecting a stallion and broodmare with certain characteristics.
The USTA rules are:-
Beginning with the 2009 breeding season, the total mares bred to a stallion standing in the United States that has never bred a mare or had a list of
mares bred filed previously shall not exceed the following:
Breeding Season: 2009 2010 2011 and thereafter
Trotting Stallions: 140 140 140
Pacing Stallions: 160 150 140
These limits on total mares bred may only be exceeded in the event of death of a mare which has been bred in which case a new mare may be added to the mares bred list and bred to the stallion.
Thomas Johnson the trotters more than the pacers have that slight problem, Super Bowl and Speedy Crown. The Aussies are still 5 years behind
NA, they will catch up and will be using the same sulkies on the same tracks and getting the times(Peacheymagic you are correct). Then the stallions will travel with some chance of getting good books of mares.
Last edited by justdoit; 12-27-2010 at 06:58 AM. Reason: T123He is not KJ you are still posting with no retraction
That is good to know im sure NZ and Australia will follow suit the question is when. Maybe this ruling will mean more american stallions will stand in nz and aus as they can serve unlimited books of mares.
Posting Permissions