Goodbye Lance

[Thevoiceofreason]

lets say a strapper has a grief with his trainer boss and secretly slaps some DMSO on a horse, the trainer is innocent, its a nasty setup, its proven to be a setup as in the strapper confesses BUT the rules states...trainer guilty cos he "presented the horse"!

Just a little extra on this subject and how inconsistent this law is . Denis Wilson was in Queensland with Attitagain when one of his horses in sydney goes positive because of a stable employee giving the wrong horse medication , Wilson get's suspended . D. Thomas goes positive for bute his mother say's she gave the wrong horse the bute ,mother gets fined D. Thomas no suspension.
Gai Waterhouse horse goes positive to coke , stable hand says he does coke must have touched horse Gai fined no suspension , D Smith goes positive for bute his father say's he gave wrong horse the bute D Smith suspended. WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT IF WE HAD SOME FORM OF CONSISTENCY REGARDING FINDINGS AND PENALTIES.

I know what would be good Dennis if you got more of the facts right in your original post.

Lets firstly deal with Darren Smith great bloke, great trainer, but has possibly the worst record in Australian Thoroughbred racing in relation to positive swabs arising from the misuse of therapeutic substances I think about 8 positive swabs, add to that a previous disqualification for Trenbolone implants back in 1999 and his penalty would be considered on the lighter side by many.

Gai Waterhouse great record in relation to positive swabs, unlike Harness all gallops winners are swabbed in NSW so in her case she has had thousands of swabs over the years with an all but impeccable record. Regardless stewards still fined her for her first offence, rest assured D Smith was also fined for his first offence and it was only about a year after he started training way back in the 1980's, seems pretty consistent to me.

I have no knowledge of the D Wilson case so as is my way, no knowledge, no comment.

In the D Thomas case his mother a registered stable hand was in charge of the horses after the races at Penrith and before Harold Park, it was proven Thomas did not return to the stables in that time. Mother was disqualified for 11 months not fined as you would have us believe. In your version D Thomas got nothing when despite the fact he was not at the stables at the relevant time and could prove the fact he still received a significant fine I think it was $10000.

There are many presidents for this type of penalty in Harness in NSW over many years it was not the first time it was done.

By all means have an opinion and voice it but if you are going to provide facts as part of that opinion at least provide ones that are accurate.

You are tying to compare Pineapples with apples and are ending up with Thorn apples.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Thanks for that rundown Mr Beattie but we are all sick of you making excuses for hrnsw. You gave Thomas a free kick.....isn't he your friend on Facebook?? And Darren smith......widely known as a close associate of yours. Now shut up and worry about Macau racing!!

I can not help the facts and if $10000 is a free kick I will send you my bank details and you give me one.

There is no excuses offered for anyone here all I simply did was list the correct facts.

If you think I am Michael Beattie your choice and while on identity I am tipping you are just another nom de pulme.

At least every post is under my name and I do not create any alias' to come on here and tell me how right I am.

And I wont comment on this topic again either unless it is about the facts, so do not worry about any of your other personalities trying to bait me.

I already know of one user who has barred your rubbish I am tipping he will add the new DeanRodgers to his barred list, Well he will if he is Lukey

[Itisi]

So it's a question this time, first of all I take it you have read the transcript of the whole case or are you just pulling out little bits and pieces that suit you, secondly who gives a flying f... how I would feel, this is not about me it's about a person been found guilty and stripped of first place and fined. If he wants to appeal it fair enough but after that let it go and retire like he said he would.Sorry never quoted, it's in repines to ash singh

[Ziggy]

Why should he retire? He has said something in a moment of frustration and disbelief that has been taken and ran with by every muppet who has lost $10 on one of his horses. Believe me if he wanted to retire he could and would but harness racing is his life and passion. To work so hard for something and then to lose it, is an emotional roller coaster. He won't retire and shouldn't have to.

[aussiebreno]

Brendan wipe the sleep out your eye mate and read what I wrote, I said both codes are under the same legal system . Which means after the respective hearings of either code you can challenge the findings in the SAME COURT SYSTEM IN AUSTRALIA.

Decision's on penalties weren't made in the courts so your argument is pointless.
I see Bill Williams (Voiceofreason) has pointed out all the differences between the cases as well.

[Maorisidol]

So it's a question this time, first of all I take it you have read the transcript of the whole case or are you just pulling out little bits and pieces that suit you, secondly who gives a flying f... how I would feel, this is not about me it's about a person been found guilty and stripped of first place and fined. If he wants to appeal it fair enough but after that let it go and retire like he said he would.Sorry never quoted, it's in repines to ash singh

The point I am trying to make Michael which importantly includes the question u cannot seem to answer, is that if YOU were charged of something.............however.........the people who are charging you AGREE there is not sufficient evidence to say YOU DID IT, how would u feel?
Would u feel ripped off? Do u Mick Tobias not have any self worth that u would allow that to happen, i doubt it, I imagine most people would stand up for themselves as is Lance. why the hell should Lance "let it go"?
So my point to u comes from your flippant idea that " I say for the sake of the sport let it go or we will spend the rest of our lives fighting swabs,protest and whatever in courts."
Let go that u are now a drug cheat
Let go the biggest race in Harness
Let go the money
Let go your reputation
Would u let that all go Mick if u were Lance and of course u considered u were innocent? I doubt it and I don't even know u...
So why say such things that don't make LOGICAL sense?????

[p plater]

Please don't hang me for this but after some very interesting comments throughout this topic, I would like to pose the follow question for discussion.
If we use this case as an example, where no charges are laid, no evidence of wrong doing by the trainer, both the RIU and the Committee have gone to lengths to state these facts but under the Rules of NZ racing the trainer is found guilty of racing a horse with a high swab reading (trying to keep it simple at this stage).
Question: As the trainer is guilty under NZ rules, could an Owner then sue the Trainer for loss of prizemoney due to 1). The guilty verdict 2) Duty of Care 3) Negligence
Over to you smarter ones

[Itisi]

The point I am trying to make Michael which importantly includes the question u cannot seem to answer, is that if YOU were charged of something.............however.........the people who are charging you AGREE there is not sufficient evidence to say YOU DID IT, how would u feel?
Would u feel ripped off? Do u Mick Tobias not have any self worth that u would allow that to happen, i doubt it, I imagine most people would stand up for themselves as is Lance. why the hell should Lance "let it go"?
So my point to u comes from your flippant idea that " I say for the sake of the sport let it go or we will spend the rest of our lives fighting swabs,protest and whatever in courts."
Let go that u are now a drug cheat
Let go the biggest race in Harness
Let go the money
Let go your reputation
Would u let that all go Mick if u were Lance and of course u considered u were innocent? I doubt it and I don't even know u...
So why say such things that don't make LOGICAL sense?????

Good to see you stick to your beliefs and I just hope you do when there is someone you don't like in a similar situation and he cries out I am innocent , we all know you will be there for him. Have no more to say on this topic as you know what I think and I sure as he'll know what you think. Good Luck and all have a Merry Christmas.

[Thevoiceofreason]

I am not weighing in on the Lance Justice case at all as I have not followed the facts closely enough.

I would however add this, the appeal process is important for many reasons even if it is only to test the validity of the rule.

There is no more obvious example than the Geoff Small Changeover case in NSW where at appeal it was argued that the rules as they were worded at the time did not cover this substance as it was not listed in the rules as it was an Antifibrinolytic, ( tranexamic acid) and it only had an effect on the blood system which was also not covered in the rules..

History shows Small won the appeal and low and behold the rules are changed.

Without this appeal the loop hole in the rule remains open.

[Maorisidol]

Good to see you stick to your beliefs and I just hope you do when there is someone you don't like in a similar situation and he cries out I am innocent , we all know you will be there for him. Have no more to say on this topic as you know what I think and I sure as he'll know what you think. Good Luck and all have a Merry Christmas.

Ah, bingo there's the crux of the matter!
Tobias simply doesn't like Lance, so he cannot admit to any common sense because it would be admitting Lance has clearly been unjustly punished due to a stupid loophole in a stupid rule ie. we can't prove u did it, but the "rule" says u cop it anyway
Merry Xmas Mick.