Luke Mccarthy enquiry adjourned

[dizzy]

No stinging rebuke here Jamie but I would suggest that you may have missed a good night last friday with your block eyes firmly on. I think here you as you claimed on another thread are doing your own bit of Tesio on this one. The topic of this thread is Luke McCarthy enquiry adjourned and as such most posts bar yours focus on recent events involving Mr McCarthy, only you seem intend on blowing some smoke from another fire on here. It is a fact of life that the higher you rise the further you fall, therefore given Mr McCarthy's level of success, and indeed the comments of those who posted here frequently of his superior attributes as a trainer and driver (and I've no doubt more than some of those qualities are completely honourable and stand him in good stead) have contributed to what you see as the disproportionate level of outrage expressed here. I'm sure if you Jamie were to have cause to utter the now famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" line I doubt anyone bar your wife and family would be interested, yet from Bill Clinton"s mouth they enthralled a nation, indeed a good proportion of the world.

As to EPO and Meth positives, they are abhorent and the full circumstances of each will be revealed at the conclusion of the relevant enquiries which will no doubt be worth a thread entirely of their own then

[Triple V]

No stinging rebuke here Jamie but I would suggest that you may have missed a good night last friday with your block eyes firmly on. I think here you as you claimed on another thread are doing your own bit of Tesio on this one. The topic of this thread is Luke McCarthy enquiry adjourned and as such most posts bar yours focus on recent events involving Mr McCarthy, only you seem intend on blowing some smoke from another fire on here. It is a fact of life that the higher you rise the further you fall, therefore given Mr McCarthy's level of success, and indeed the comments of those who posted here frequently of his superior attributes as a trainer and driver (and I've no doubt more than some of those qualities are completely honourable and stand him in good stead) have contributed to what you see as the disproportionate level of outrage expressed here. I'm sure if you Jamie were to have cause to utter the now famous words "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" line I doubt anyone bar your wife and family would be interested, yet from Bill Clinton"s mouth they enthralled a nation, indeed a good proportion of the world.

As to EPO and Meth positives, they are abhorent and the full circumstances of each will be revealed at the conclusion of the relevant enquiries which will no doubt be worth a thread entirely of their own then

[VVV] Many thanks Dot. If only I could have been on as good a thing at the track...

[mark diegutis]

To Mark....last night I saw a comment that I am sure was made by you, in regard to boldenone being either undetectable or out of the system after 17 days (or so) and I thought thats pretty interesting but I cannot find it today. That bloody State Of Origin match took priority over last nights discussion. Either I am dreaming or the comment was zapped because it wasn't backed up with a source. Not even sure if it was your comment, but if it was, could you repeat your statement (with a source) because I have not read anywhere of this short term property before.

Cheers Brad

Hi Brad . Here is one of the articles that I have come accross that was taken to test the actual time taken for this steroid to become non detectable . I will find the original that explains how these drugs can be manipulated with dosage , wieght , work etc to bring the detection time down






LOGIN





Determination of boldenone sulfoconjugate and related steroid sulfates in equine urine


Biological Mass Spectrometer




Author Information

• Equine Drug Testing and Toxicology. New York State College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, 925 Warren Drive, Ithaca, New York 14850, USA

Abstract

Sulfoconjugated anabolic steroids were separated by micro-bore high-performance liquid chromatography. The eluent was introduced into the atmospheric pressure ion source of the triple-quadrupole mass spectrometer via an ion spray liquid chromatograph/mass spectrometer interface operated in the negative ion mode. The limit of detection was 10 pg on-column by selected ion monitoring of the molecular ion and the response increased linearly over a concentration range of 2.4 orders of magnitude. Following work-up by a liquid-solid extraction procedure of equine urine samples, full-scan daughter ion spectra of boldenone sulfate could be obtained up to 17 days after a therapeutic dose of boldenone undecylenate to a horse.

[aussiebreno]

Didn't think this was worthy of a thread and have decided this is probably the most relevant thread to post this in. M Rue's drive on Buckeye Nation on 14/4/2012 at Menangle was questioned by stewards and an inquiry was to be held. I have valiantly searched stewards reports since then but haven't come across something (my eyesight could have something to do with this).
http://www.harness.org.au/stewards-r...fm?mc=ME140412
Anyone heard anything?

[dizzy]

I'm not an expert but I believe hormones and steroids have always had varying degrees of active/detectable times depending on the precise chemical combinations involved, with many previously long acting preparations now available in shorter acting/detectable preparations and vice versa
.
Perhaps Mark can clarify but I believe the study referred to indicates a method by which a positive swab for boldenone, administered as boldenone undecylenate, can be obtained for a longer period of time after administration, then other testing methods in use. Perhaps this is the testing method used in Hong Kong and not in Australia thus explaining the pre and post Newcastle negative swabs?

Some years ago Joe Janiack took Takeover Target from Japan to Hong Kong to race. As was Joe's regular practice at the time, and common to many trainers in Australia at the time, the horse was given a hormone preparation to assist his recovery from the stress of travel and acclimatising to a new environment. In Australia at the time I think the withdrawal time for this preparation was in the order of 6 days. Takeover Target was subject to routine non raceday drug testing as is common in Hong Kong and returned a positive swab. Takeover Target was then repeatedly tested over a period of some weeks I believe and including pretty much raceday morning to ensure the substance had cleared his system to enable him to take his place in the field. It hadn't and he was scratched from a group one event.

Likewise the equestrian events from the Bejing Olympics because of quarantine restrictions were held in Hong Kong. A number of riders had horses return positive swabs after using "pre event protocols" the same as they had used "at home" for many years without returning positive swabs.

The lab in Hong Kong clearly stands head and shoulders above the rest. Entrapment maybe? But the rules are clear horses have to be free of prohibbited substances raceday. There are no requirements to only ever test to the same standard as the home jurisdiction routinely does.

[Thevoiceofreason]

Dot

In relation to the Takeover Target Drug it was as you said in widespread use at the time it was "alpha-hydroxyprogesterone hexonate".

Commonly known as SA the test for this drug was actually pioneered in Australia by the ARFL Sydney and it was the Australian Lab that told other labs around the world how to test for the drug.

Hong Kong were the first to begin testing for it on a regular basis in late 2006 at that time no other Jurisdictions tested for the drug.

In Australia the GHRRA ( VVV please do not choke your mate Cogo leading the way again) were the first to declare they would commence testing for the drug around May 2007 they gave a 4 week later extended to 8 week notice as there were many concerns about the half life of the drug as initial tests had indicated it would clear the system at between 12 and 14 days and a positive swab would not be declared after that period of time, however a second positive in HK in March 2007 had shown it could be found up to 56 days after administration and this to some degree put the cat among the pigeons .

Takeover Target for the record was positive in December 2006 part of the reason Joe continued to ask for further testing right up to race day was because of the view that it would clear the system within 14 days, my memory is Joe admitted administration at about 21 days before the race, so given the then advertised detection limits he was confident it would clear by race morning... history shows it did not.

At some time in 2007 Australian Authorities announced they would be testing for HPC across the board and its subsequent use has pretty much died out because of its ease of detect-ability and its extended half life within the horse.

[mark diegutis]

I'm not an expert but I believe hormones and steroids have always had varying degrees of active/detectable times depending on the precise chemical combinations involved, with many previously long acting preparations now available in shorter acting/detectable preparations and vice versa
.
Perhaps Mark can clarify but I believe the study referred to indicates a method by which a positive swab for boldenone, administered as boldenone undecylenate, can be obtained for a longer period of time after administration, then other testing methods in use. Perhaps this is the testing method used in Hong Kong and not in Australia thus explaining the pre and post Newcastle negative swabs?

Some years ago Joe Janiack took Takeover Target from Japan to Hong Kong to race. As was Joe's regular practice at the time, and common to many trainers in Australia at the time, the horse was given a hormone preparation to assist his recovery from the stress of travel and acclimatising to a new environment. In Australia at the time I think the withdrawal time for this preparation was in the order of 6 days. Takeover Target was subject to routine non raceday drug testing as is common in Hong Kong and returned a positive swab. Takeover Target was then repeatedly tested over a period of some weeks I believe and including pretty much raceday morning to ensure the substance had cleared his system to enable him to take his place in the field. It hadn't and he was scratched from a group one event.

Likewise the equestrian events from the Bejing Olympics because of quarantine restrictions were held in Hong Kong. A number of riders had horses return positive swabs after using "pre event protocols" the same as they had used "at home" for many years without returning positive swabs.

The lab in Hong Kong clearly stands head and shoulders above the rest. Entrapment maybe? But the rules are clear horses have to be free of prohibited substances race day. There are no requirements to only ever test to the same standard as the home jurisdiction routinely does.

Hi Dot . I'm certainly no expert , but I work with a number of leading doctors and professors who work on developing medical breakthroughs . They have been extremely informative . These long acting steroids can be manipulated by mixing them with other steroids , working horses harder , using diuretics , balancing them for your horses weight etc etc to shorten their detectable life . Recently a greyhound went positive for boldenone in QLD . It was given to another trainer who had its blood and urine tested . It only took just over 3 weeks for this particular dog to show a negative swab . If Australian racing labs were anywhere near as accurate as the labs in Hong Kong then we wouldn't be sending them there . The Hong Kong Jockey Club pride themselves on being world leaders in the fight against drug use in racing . It was a great move by HRNSW to start using them . Unfortunately these sorts of drugs are easily sought and trainers can have their bloods tested so they know they won't go for a positive in Australia . Once they have it worked out they can use it time and time again and will continue to . We need horses to be swabbed out of racing , at trials , after being nominated . Until these guys are completely unsure they will never stop . Cheers Mark

[Triple V]

Be that as it may, you probably should let sleeping dogs lie VOR as you know full well that subject stokes my boiler.
You & I & the gatepost know that the GHRRA Board and Management was the NSW based model turned ultimate shambles upon which was based the QLD State Labor similarly factionista style jobs for the boys debacle that was RQLD.
Each group had the obligatory line-up of hangers on, party apparatchik, union oligarchy & assorted stalwarts & their respective follies...although we'll likely never know the true extent of it...I suspect cost their respective State Industries quite dearly.
That back in 2007 they may have managed to extinguish a smouldering letterbox whilst all around Rome continued to burn unchecked, well, it's not much of a claim to fame for mine. Call me a cynic if you must.
Interestingly OLGR have renamed themselves and become ILGA, thus giving this and subsequent State Governments control over but plausible deniability for everything..should they happen to do something that doesn't quite work out. Got to love Politicians. Arse covering is to them like breathing.

[dizzy]

Yes Bill that is the drug, I thought I recalled the common name as SA, I did check the long name before posting but thought "too hard" to make sure that I spelled that right! Didn't know the test was developed here only that Joe had a B sample tested here as he didn't believe the Hong Kong results. It tested positive and shortly after the GHRRA did notify trainers they would be now testing for SA. There was some speculation around at the time, though I think it remained unproven, that Joe had injected the drug into a ligament which had increased the clearance time. I think I recall that the testing for solu cortef changed at or around the same time.

[dizzy]

Agree Mark, a new approach to drug regulation/testing needs to evolve, with trainers having access to experts and sophisticated facilities to determine individual administration protocals to ensure post race samples are clear then post race testing of winners is not the deterent it once was. Using the Hong Kong lab raised the bar but more will be needed to ensure a level playing field