i didn't do high school biology.
[vvv] that's abundantly obvious.
i've no doubt vvv that a flaw in human dna leads to foal losses but has it occured to you that some of those foals maybe cant be saved?
[vvv]human dna ??????????
whilst no doubt our interventions could be better do you really think its got worse in recent years from those days of no foaling alarms at all and most mares foaled down with the cows.
[vvv] my feeling is that it has gotten somewhat worse in recent years simply because the paradigm of the breeding industy has changed.
semen transport sees a whole lot of mares domiciled, bred and foaled down 'off farm' and so in a great many cases away from the knowledgable assistance that would otherwise have been forthcoming to them had they foaled down 'on farm' as in at a stud farm. None of that has any genetic basis to it whatsoever.
i have to disagree vvv a mare not able to foal down without intervention or a foal unable to survive without intervention is very much a genetic aspect. You know mother nature, survival of the fittest stuff. These mares if left to natures way would be culled from the herd thus leaving a herd which could for the most part but not exclusively so foal down without difficulty.
[vvv] that's abject crap dot.
i've had mares that have had 4-5 foals and knocked them out like gum ball machines without any need for assistance whatsoever go on to have 1 more, get it in the wrong position and duly need help.
generally those that foal down easy previously are a reasonable chance to do so again but it is by no means a bankable thing.
same for all those crooked legged foals who through surgical intervention acquire sufficiently straight legs to at some time in the future contribute their flawed genes to the gene pool.
[vvv] for mine that's just plain wrong. Mares with legs that required sa urgical correction shortly after birth do not automatically pass on those same issues in their foals, nor for that matter do sires. (Those are congenital issues.)
you suggesting that in itself shows how much you know of this subject from the practical, real world aspect.
as it happens one of the much discussed sires in this thread was surgically corrected as a foal and you've recently been cheering his conformation and ability to pass it on to his offspring. Oooops.
you'll have to show me where it was that i said prepotency was guaranteed to be a good thing.
[vvv] you didn't. I merely added that it can have a flipside. My apologies for trying to add some perspective.
as to breeding 2x3 and 3x3 on the sire line i'll swear you laughed at me on a recent post because australia top breeders were doing it?
[vvv] no, i merely highlighted the fact that wiser heads than yours and mine seemed to think it was not an issue.
and then you said you'd die a happy man if you could emulate them?
[vvv] their long record of success in the toughest part of an already difficult to make $ in industry, yes...or something along those lines.
and now you say your not in favour of it?
[vvv] i am neither in strongly in favour nor strongly against.
i'm merely replying and questioning the validity of your position that it is the wrong thing to do. I certainly don't see it as anywhere near as big an issue as you do.
and now there are no yearlings bred like it in 50 odd years so thats why there cant be any good ones?
[vvv] chicken and egg. I've explained this already.
come on vvv only a few months ago you were passionately listing all the successfull 3x3 cross on the sire line to cam fella to put me in my place, remember around breeders challenge final time? You know awarding your friend who lives in a cave on the gold coast a nostradamus award? (sorry vvv's friend if your reading this because i truely am awful at remembering names, i don't mean to offend) give me a break vvv make up your mind.
[vvv] paul ellis is his name. He is one of the apg directors from qld.
i guess he noticed it with pb bullville being bred to fake left mares up his way.
no sooner had he mentioned it than along came quite a few smart ones bred exactly that way, which i then highlighted for your perousal. Bitobliss is one as i recall. I'll list them all again tomorrow for you if you like.
sorry vvv you have completely lost me with your definition of my apparent definition of line and inbreeding.
[vvv] read it a few times. It'll sink it. that which a lot of horsepeople refer to as being inbred is not in fact inbred at all, rather linebred, close as it may be. I've said this numerous times before in different threads on this and in other forums but it suits your purposes to take issue with it now so fire away. You'll just get the same answer.
your american ideal/ talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?
[vvv] keen observations of sire and dam combined with a lot of good feed and care and bit of good fortune leading to an outstanding individual. That's him in my avatar incidentally.
if you say so vvv about the tesio program, frankly i thought our leading breeders were smarter then that especially since you wish to emulate them but hey you actually could be right here, a quick perusal of the variety of mating choices for many mares that have had several foals shows a very wide selection of stallions used with regard to phenotype and genotype.
[vvv] you've lost me there.
of course if you breed for the sales that is absolutely the right thing because the definition of well bred is whats going to be popular at the sale based on proven behaviour patterns of buyers.
[vvv] the magic trick is to get both in the same package. Hard to do. That which is the best for your mare is not always that which is the best to sell.
tesio was a very smart man and yes he was prone to mischief at times but the key to understanding his genius wasn't in what he said or wrote but what he did.
[vvv] i continually try to educate myself on such matters but i am afraid i can't spreak to that. I'll have to take your word for it.