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  1. #71
    Senior Member 3YO Mitch will become famous soon enough Mitch's Avatar
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    Jaimie & Dot,

    I enjoy people expressing their opinions and engaging in robust debate but this is getting ridiculous. The beauty of opinion is that you don't have to agree. Have your say, rebut & have one more final go but after that move on and let it be.

    This post has gone from a good debate on some of our most exciting future stars to sheer rubbish.

    Your both extremely knowledgable people who can add a lot value to this forum - focus on that not each other.

    Goodnight.

  2. #72
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Yes Dad.
    In an effort to get back on track somewhat...
    I read a blog post recently dated December 30th, 2012, at http://b4breeding.com/ .
    It is maintained by the lady in NZ who bred Tintin In America. It was along the lines of (parts of) this thread where the question of Tintin In America covering a Trump Casino mare was raised. (both being Falcon Seelster line horses).
    Having bred & raised the stallion (Tintin) she then went on to say that she would not exclude Falcon Seelster mares as consorts for him and referred to a previous blog entry of October 21st, 2012 which was to the same effect. Her reasoning was interesting & to me seems to be very much in keeping with a 'deal with what your eyes tell you and not what a piece of paper says' approach...

    QUOTE [Personally, I don’t think McArdle (Tintin’s sire) has a lot of Falcon Seelster influence in him. I think he may be driven by the genes he got from his dam lines rather than from his dad. The Falcon Seelster factor (his click with the family previously) was not a big factor in my selection of McArdle for Tintin’s dam Zenterfold.]

    I just can't see why the same would not apply to a whole range of sires of any other line anyone may care to mention.
    For example, IMO Village Jasper is very much of a Jate Lobell appearance while Safely Kept is not (this despite the fact that both are by Jate Lobell from Abercrombie mares).
    Similarly Sportswriter is the most like his sire Artsplace of any son I have ever seen while the late Astreos was, for mine, more like the stock of his damsire, No Nukes.
    Bettor's Delight and Four Starzzz Shark are both sons of Cam's Card Shark but physically they are about as alike as Mick Muscat & myself.
    American Ideal and Rocknroll Hanover share only one thing in common, their sire Western Ideal, and again they look absolutely nothing alike.
    For mine, ever since the invention of the Tesio program & the like, while they are for sure interesting and valuable tools, there has been waaaaaaaaaaay too much getting hung up on bits of paper & pretty computer screens/printouts and not nearly enough dealing with the physical appearance of the stock in play. The many and varied forms with which even full siblings can and do appear surely speaks louder than words.
    When there is already a massive variation in play on a foal to foal from the same parents basis, how anyone could possibly go down the Chicken Little says the Sky is falling path is absolutely beyond me. I believe that genetic alarmist approach is utterly irresponsible & it merely serves to further cloud the picture for many Breeders rather than clearing it.

  3. #73
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Danno, Mary thank you for your concerns but I am quite happy for VVV to leave his comment there, for it says nothing about me but speaks volumes about him. Rest assured it is impossible for my parents to read it or become offended also.

    Mitch I am dissapointed that you think a debate on the genetic viability of the breed is rubbish. If you are refering to my comment regarding incest then rest assured that has nothing to do with the moral issue in this instance but the science of the issue. How can VVV refer to such a comment as a disgrace yet advocate passionately on this forum in favour of incestuous matings? The taboo on such practices as incest and close relatives marrying did not come originally from the pulpit, though no doubt there has been plenty a passionate sermon on the subject delivered by many men of the cloth, but from human beings centuries ago recognising that the produce of such unions were in many instances "not quite right" and often much worse then that.

    How is it that the standardbred is immune to the perils of inbreeding when no other breed or species is? Horse have over 90 genetic diseases, how can you assert without study that animal husbandry is the sole cause of low foaling rates? After all you said the stallions did their job, the mares went in foal how is it that all losses should be attributed to poor animal husbandry and not at all to a possible flaw in the genetic make up of the embryo?.

    VVV I am glad that you are reading but to use a blog as the basis for your assertion that there is no danger in inbreeding if their different physical types is well absurd. Bee writes an excellant blog, I have read all the information contained on it but Bee also makes no effort to hide the fact that she is a journalist and not an expert on breeding. So you would take the writtings of a journalist over the opinion of a genetist employed by one of the US's most pre emminent breeding establishments?

    Your thesis on genetic variability based on differences in physical type is flawed as you don't consider the issue of dominance. The horses you list may in fact have very similar genetic make up inherited from their sires but if the dam's genes were the dominant ones for physical appearance then they may and do appear physically very different. Art Major is a very prepontent sire of type so most of his stock are very similar in appearance, so do we take it automatically that they are the same in genotype?

    As to your view that 2x2 and 3x3 breeding on the sireline is favourable to the racing prospects of the offspring here is a little fact for you to consider, along with all the other breeders who favour it. John Bradley published two books in the mid nineties containg the 101 best racehorses and sires in the breed history from around the 1940 to 1990. Not one of those 101 champions is bred 2x2 on the sireline. Not one of those sires is bred 2x3 on the sireline. There is 1 bred 3x3 on the sireline, Most Happy Fella. There are 3 trotting stallions bred 2x4 on the sire line so less 3% of the horses profiled. Add modern day examples such as Mach Three, Art Major Bettors Delight and Rocknroll Hanover the stats don't get any better. There is one sire Valley Victory that did produce his best stock to mares by Speedy Crown so on a 4x2 cross to Speedy Crown. I'm sure you see it differently VVV but all in all not a lot to recommend inbred matings on the sireline. Feel free to table your examples of champions bred in your prefered fashion.

    There is something to be said however for linebred matings through sons and daughters of superior producers, that way the genes on both the x and y chromosone may recombine in a favourable fashion in the offspring. But you don't like Tesio or is it because you don't inderstand. The TB's consider him the most successful breeder of all time, but no he didn't write a 101 version for everyone to copy, nor was pedigree the sole consideration in his matings and success, you have to work at it a bit harder then that.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Thumbs up John Gaines, in his own words.

    This is without a doubt the single most interesting, most informative, cut to the chase, no bullshit article on Horse Breeding that I have ever read.
    Of all things it is a Dan Liebman interview with one man, the late John Gaines, published on bloodhorse.com back in February 2005.

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-his-own-words

  5. #75
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzy View Post
    mitch i am dissapointed that you think a debate on the genetic viability of the breed is rubbish. If you are refering to my comment regarding incest then rest assured that has nothing to do with the moral issue in this instance but the science of the issue. How can vvv refer to such a comment as a disgrace yet advocate passionately on this forum in favour of incestuous matings?
    [vvv] dot, i suggest that you get some perspective here & try to get your facts straight before you go publicly attributing positions to me that i have not and have never taken.
    it's one thing for me to suggest that imo it is not an issue (which i did) and it is another thing entirely for you to then state that i have passionately advocated same (which i quite clearly have not). Apology accepted in advance.

    the taboo on such practices as incest and close relatives marrying did not come originally from the pulpit, though no doubt there has been plenty a passionate sermon on the subject delivered by many men of the cloth, but from human beings centuries ago recognising that the produce of such unions were in many instances "not quite right" and often much worse then that.
    [vvv] ????....and all that off topic is applicable/relevant to the breeding of performance horses because...?

    how is it that the standardbred is immune to the perils of inbreeding when no other breed or species is?
    [vvv] dot, for starters here's where you run into a significant terminology error.
    inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line. Anything else is effectively linebreeding, even as close as it may be...however it is not inbreeding as such.

    horse have over 90 genetic diseases, how can you assert without study that animal husbandry is the sole cause of low foaling rates?
    [vvv] there's another terminology issue here. not low foaling rates.
    rather low live foal registrations. there is a huge difference to be had dot.
    from the point of mares being declared ptif through to the point where their resultant foals are registered we (aus) annually lose around about 12%.
    the stallions are getting mares in foal on average at around a 72-73% hit rate annually. If by whatever means we somehow managed to get that up to 80% or so we will never do better given the widespead adoption of semen transport here in aus. the problem at hand is that we annually only register 61-62% live foals from all mares served. Not all of that is attributable to husbandry issues but an overwhelming proportion of it most certainly is. Ring a few of the studs and ask them yourself. They will tell you some horror stories. It is a major problem.
    the troops manning the various state breeders associations will, in a private moment, tell you the same...as for that matter will the hra breeders panel & the associated groups.

    after all you said the stallions did their job, the mares went in foal how is it that all losses should be attributed to poor animal husbandry and not at all to a possible flaw in the genetic make up of the embryo?.
    [vvv] further to my reply directly above, that's the first line of defence & a very effective one too. It's how nature rids itself of a lot of that which was not meant to be & without doubt that occurs every season & with every breed of horse but it is by no means widespread.
    being moderately to poorly cared for & being left to foal alone & unassisted in a paddock out the back of whoop whoop followed up by often limited to zero post foaling care is not a genetic aspect however. That sort of thing accounts for the vast majority of losses. As i said, don't believe me. Ring the studs and ask them.
    vvv i am glad that you are reading but to use a blog as the basis for your assertion that there is no danger in inbreeding if their different physical types is well absurd.
    [vvv] trust your eyes and your observance of the physical attributes of that which is stands in front of you, not bits of paper.
    save significant environmental interference, for the purposes of horse breeding it is more than reasonable to suggest that their phenotype is representative of their genotype. I learnt that in high school biology btw.

    bee writes an excellant blog, i have read all the information contained on it but bee also makes no effort to hide the fact that she is a journalist and not an expert on breeding.
    [vvv] there is no such thing as an expert on breeding.
    if there were, said persons would have all the good horses. There are however some keen and insightful observations which serve to fill in a few pieces of the puzzle from time to time. Bee's observations are right there amongst them, no question imo.

    so you would take the writtings of a journalist over the opinion of a genetist employed by one of the us's most pre emminent breeding establishments?
    [vvv] dot, seriously. The genetics talkin' guy was in the paid employ of the crew there. Do you think he will ever come out and disagree? C'mon. If you couldn't read that push from ken jackson & his man re: Christian cullen for what it really was then geeze... it was very much like the greens carbon tax push.
    create a fear of that which is not actually there and then offer up salvation. It's a legitamet advertising tactic i guess... But that makes it no more correct. They've got their own cc up there anyway now. Somebeachsomewhere.

    your thesis on genetic variability based on differences in physical type is flawed as you don't consider the issue of dominance. The horses you list may in fact have very similar genetic make up inherited from their sires but if the dam's genes were the dominant ones for physical appearance then they may and do appear physically very different.
    [vvv] all either of us can do, all any of us can do is make our judgements based initially on the phenotypes that we are presented with and then followed by subsequent observations of the style/type of foals that they then produce when they are bred to given styles/types of mares.
    as i said above, save significant environmental interference, for the purposes of horse breeding it is reasonable to suggest that their phenotype is representative of their genotype.

    art major is a very prepontent sire of type so most of his stock are very similar in appearance, so do we take it automatically that they are the same in genotype?
    [vvv] prepotency by definition is the ability of an individual to essentially over ride the other parent in a mating & produce progeny which resemble or carry the features of that individual, in art major's case his phenotype and seeing as how phenotype can be reasonably said to represent genotype, well...i've said it twice already. Prepotency can also exist in a dominant or a recessive form depending on the trait involved and it need not neccessarily be a desirable thing that a given horse is prepotent for, a sire that is prepotent for passing on his bad feet or his crap temperament for example.

    as to your view that 2x2 and 3x3 breeding on the sireline is favourable to the racing prospects of the offspring
    [vvv] i don't recall ever saying that it was a favourable thing either dot...but why would you stop putting words in my mouth now? why depart from your now time-honoured game plan? what i recall as having suggested was is there such a thing as too much of a good thing or along those lines. Please feel free to cite an example that says otherwise.

    here is a little fact for you to consider, along with all the other breeders who favour it. John bradley published two books in the mid nineties containg the 101 best racehorses and sires in the breed history from around the 1940 to 1990. Not one of those 101 champions is bred 2x2 on the sireline. Not one of those sires is bred 2x3 on the sireline. There is 1 bred 3x3 on the sireline, most happy fella. There are 3 trotting stallions bred 2x4 on the sire line so less 3% of the horses profiled. Add modern day examples such as mach three, art major bettors delight and rocknroll hanover the stats don't get any better. There is one sire valley victory that did produce his best stock to mares by speedy crown so on a 4x2 cross to speedy crown. I'm sure you see it differently vvv but all in all not a lot to recommend inbred matings on the sireline. Feel free to table your examples of champions bred in your prefered fashion.
    [vvv] that's a chicken and egg scenario if ever i saw one dot.
    for reasons mostly commerical, a lot of which has to do with the chicken little, the sky is falling brigade and not as a result of any significant grasp of genetics, by and large people don't try it to begin with so therefore there are no yearlings bred that way so they don't show up in the stats. Owners of pacing fillies have the same problem in nsw getting a start against their own sex. The races are not programmed so the fillies aren't nominated and the fillies aren't nominated so the races aren't programmed. Similarly, it proves absolutely nothing.

    there is something to be said however for linebred matings through sons and daughters of superior producers, that way the genes on both the x and y chromosone may recombine in a favourable fashion in the offspring.
    [vvv] by what you've explained as your definition of inbreeding that would actually be inbreeding and not line breeding.
    to suggest that it's inbreeding just because it's taking place up close but that is linebreeding because it's a bit further back is absurd. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


    but you don't like tesio or is it because you don't inderstand.
    [vvv] tesio the pc program to which i referred allows those who do not fully appreciate the nature of inheritance to over simplify and then pigeon hole that which is way, way more complex. it also serves to create an over reliance on pretty screens & printouts in place of actually looking at the physical attributes of sire and dam and acting accordingly.

    the tb's consider him the most successful breeder of all time, but no he didn't write a 101 version for everyone to copy, nor was pedigree the sole consideration in his matings and success, you have to work at it a bit harder then that.
    [vvv] tesio the breeder was a very smart man who must be somewhere absolutely laughing himself silly at all the people who have taken every word he said as breeding gospel. The fact is he put out just as much misinformation as he ever did actual information.
    vvv

  6. #76
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple V View Post
    This is without a doubt the single most interesting, most informative, cut to the chase, no bullshit article on Horse Breeding that I have ever read.
    Of all things it is a Dan Liebman interview with one man, the late John Gaines, published on bloodhorse.com back in February 2005.

    http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-his-own-words
    Yep filed this one in between Samuel Riddle and Bull Hancock in my library last time you posted it. VVV You'd be surprised how many books there are in the series great breeders and their methods. I have pretty much read all of them and then some and their is a vast difference in the thinking between the commercial breeders who are largely proprieters of stallion stations and those breeders who bred their own stock to race. In essence the stallion station proprieters where great marketers and business men more so then breeders, they owned very few broodmares themselves attracting mostly a very wealthy cliental who basicly hung off every word the salemans told them and paid up front for syndicated stallion shares. I wouldn't actually call any of these men great breeders despite their apparent success but I would certainly call them absolutely outstanding businessmen. The other group who were wealthy through means other then the horses owned far more broodmares themselves and selectively stood stallions at stud or used stallions that complemented their mares, or purchased mares to suit their own stallions, these were by far the more successfull breeders. Gainesway farm was a stallion farm, and John Gaines comments accordingly. And there were huge tax deductions in the days that the stallion farms were born for the wealthy to invest in breeding racehorses.
    Last edited by dizzy; 01-20-2013 at 01:43 PM. Reason: missed out a critical word

  7. #77
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Triple VVV you would be surprised at the similarity between the horse and human genome. Many of the genetic diseases found in horses have a parallel in humans or would that be vice versa perhaps. I've been looking for your definition of inbreeding since the last time you posted it, still cant find it so perhaps you could post a reference for it this time? I didn't do high school biology. Are you saying it is only inbreeding if you combine the mitachrondial dna which is exclusively tail female of course. If Life Sign had been mated to Lisheen that would not be inbred right?

    I've no doubt VVV that a flaw in human dna leads to foal losses but has it occured to you that some of those foals maybe cant be saved? Whilst no doubt our interventions could be better do you really think its got worse in recent years from those days of no foaling alarms at all and most mares foaled down with the
    cows. I have to disagree VVV a mare not able to foal down without intervention or a foal unable to survive without intervention is very much a genetic aspect. You know mother nature, survival of the fittest stuff. These mares if left to natures way would be culled from the herd thus leaving a herd which could for the most part but not exclusively so foal down without difficulty. Same for all those crooked legged foals who through surgical intervention acquire sufficiently straight legs to at some time in the future contribute their flawed genes to the gene pool.

    You'll have to show me where it was that I said prepotency was guaranteed to be a good thing.

    As to breeding 2x3 and 3x3 on the sire line I'll swear you laughed at me on a recent post because Australia top breeders were doing it? And then you said you'd die a happy man if you could emulate them? And now you say your not in favour of it? And now there are no yearlings bred like it in 50 odd years so thats why there cant be any good ones? Come on VVV only a few months ago you were passionately listing all the successfull 3x3 cross on the sire line to Cam Fella to put me in my place, remember around breeders challenge final time? You know awarding your friend who lives in a cave on the gold coast a nostradamus award? (sorry VVV's friend if your reading this because I truely am awful at remembering names, I don't mean to offend) Give me a break VVV make up your mind.

    Sorry VVV you have completely lost me with your definition of my apparent definition of line and inbreeding. Your American Ideal/ Talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

    If you say so VVV about the tesio program, frankly I thought our leading breeders were smarter then that especially since you wish to emulate them but hey you actually could be right here, a quick perusal of the variety of mating choices for many mares that have had several foals shows a very wide selection of stallions used with regard to phenotype and genotype. Of course if you breed for the sales that is absolutely the right thing because the definition of well bred is whats going to be popular at the sale based on proven behaviour patterns of buyers.

    Tesio was a very smart man and yes he was prone to mischief at times but the key to understanding his genius wasn't in what he said or wrote but what he did.
    Last edited by dizzy; 01-19-2013 at 04:32 PM. Reason: cant spell for s@@@

  8. #78
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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  9. #79
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzy View Post
    i didn't do high school biology.
    [vvv] that's abundantly obvious.

    i've no doubt vvv that a flaw in human dna leads to foal losses but has it occured to you that some of those foals maybe cant be saved?
    [vvv]human dna ??????????

    whilst no doubt our interventions could be better do you really think its got worse in recent years from those days of no foaling alarms at all and most mares foaled down with the cows.
    [vvv] my feeling is that it has gotten somewhat worse in recent years simply because the paradigm of the breeding industy has changed.
    semen transport sees a whole lot of mares domiciled, bred and foaled down 'off farm' and so in a great many cases away from the knowledgable assistance that would otherwise have been forthcoming to them had they foaled down 'on farm' as in at a stud farm. None of that has any genetic basis to it whatsoever.

    i have to disagree vvv a mare not able to foal down without intervention or a foal unable to survive without intervention is very much a genetic aspect. You know mother nature, survival of the fittest stuff. These mares if left to natures way would be culled from the herd thus leaving a herd which could for the most part but not exclusively so foal down without difficulty.
    [vvv] that's abject crap dot.
    i've had mares that have had 4-5 foals and knocked them out like gum ball machines without any need for assistance whatsoever go on to have 1 more, get it in the wrong position and duly need help.
    generally those that foal down easy previously are a reasonable chance to do so again but it is by no means a bankable thing.


    same for all those crooked legged foals who through surgical intervention acquire sufficiently straight legs to at some time in the future contribute their flawed genes to the gene pool.
    [vvv] for mine that's just plain wrong. Mares with legs that required sa urgical correction shortly after birth do not automatically pass on those same issues in their foals, nor for that matter do sires. (Those are congenital issues.)
    you suggesting that in itself shows how much you know of this subject from the practical, real world aspect.
    as it happens one of the much discussed sires in this thread was surgically corrected as a foal and you've recently been cheering his conformation and ability to pass it on to his offspring. Oooops.

    you'll have to show me where it was that i said prepotency was guaranteed to be a good thing.
    [vvv] you didn't. I merely added that it can have a flipside. My apologies for trying to add some perspective.

    as to breeding 2x3 and 3x3 on the sire line i'll swear you laughed at me on a recent post because australia top breeders were doing it?
    [vvv] no, i merely highlighted the fact that wiser heads than yours and mine seemed to think it was not an issue.

    and then you said you'd die a happy man if you could emulate them?
    [vvv] their long record of success in the toughest part of an already difficult to make $ in industry, yes...or something along those lines.

    and now you say your not in favour of it?
    [vvv] i am neither in strongly in favour nor strongly against.
    i'm merely replying and questioning the validity of your position that it is the wrong thing to do. I certainly don't see it as anywhere near as big an issue as you do.

    and now there are no yearlings bred like it in 50 odd years so thats why there cant be any good ones? [vvv] chicken and egg. I've explained this already.

    come on vvv only a few months ago you were passionately listing all the successfull 3x3 cross on the sire line to cam fella to put me in my place, remember around breeders challenge final time? You know awarding your friend who lives in a cave on the gold coast a nostradamus award? (sorry vvv's friend if your reading this because i truely am awful at remembering names, i don't mean to offend) give me a break vvv make up your mind.
    [vvv] paul ellis is his name. He is one of the apg directors from qld.
    i guess he noticed it with pb bullville being bred to fake left mares up his way.
    no sooner had he mentioned it than along came quite a few smart ones bred exactly that way, which i then highlighted for your perousal. Bitobliss is one as i recall. I'll list them all again tomorrow for you if you like.

    sorry vvv you have completely lost me with your definition of my apparent definition of line and inbreeding.
    [vvv] read it a few times. It'll sink it. that which a lot of horsepeople refer to as being inbred is not in fact inbred at all, rather linebred, close as it may be. I've said this numerous times before in different threads on this and in other forums but it suits your purposes to take issue with it now so fire away. You'll just get the same answer.

    your american ideal/ talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?
    [vvv] keen observations of sire and dam combined with a lot of good feed and care and bit of good fortune leading to an outstanding individual. That's him in my avatar incidentally.

    if you say so vvv about the tesio program, frankly i thought our leading breeders were smarter then that especially since you wish to emulate them but hey you actually could be right here, a quick perusal of the variety of mating choices for many mares that have had several foals shows a very wide selection of stallions used with regard to phenotype and genotype. [vvv] you've lost me there.

    of course if you breed for the sales that is absolutely the right thing because the definition of well bred is whats going to be popular at the sale based on proven behaviour patterns of buyers.
    [vvv] the magic trick is to get both in the same package. Hard to do. That which is the best for your mare is not always that which is the best to sell.

    tesio was a very smart man and yes he was prone to mischief at times but the key to understanding his genius wasn't in what he said or wrote but what he did.
    [vvv] i continually try to educate myself on such matters but i am afraid i can't spreak to that. I'll have to take your word for it.
    vvv
    Last edited by Triple V; 01-20-2013 at 02:45 PM. Reason: added a sentence in (brackets)

  10. #80
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    VVV you may have done biology at high school but what about English comprehension? There were a number of direct questions in my post and it would appear that you have missed them all. So as you have listed your occupation as educating dot could you please please answer them if I list them out for you. You know for my education and all.

    1/ What was the name of your Biology teacher? (ok that one wasn't there before)

    2/ VVV said "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line." Please Please can you provide references for this because I really really cant find it?

    3/ Is Life Sign over Lisheen an inbred mating?

    4/Your American Ideal/ Talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

    Its only four little questions VVV, why don't you give it a shot?


    Ps I did physics and chemistry with all the other nerds. And congenital faults have three causes, sporadic, environmental and genetic. Genetic ones can be passed on. Dominant ones directly, and recessive ones are exposed more frequently as an inbred/linebred herd becomes increasingly homozygous.
    Last edited by dizzy; 01-20-2013 at 08:41 PM. Reason: format went haywire!

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