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  1. #81
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Jaimie Varcoe
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzy View Post
    vvv you may have done biology at high school but what about english comprehension?
    [vvv] english teachers fondly remembered were john mazur & richard hazelwood-ross. Both great blokes. John ended up at geelong grammar i think and the last i heard richard went down south to tumbi umbi. Got a love of the written and spoken word from both of them. Would love to catch up with one or either of them again.

    there were a number of direct questions in my post and it would appear that you have missed them all.
    [vvv] you have seen through my clever plan. Well it was trevor's idea actually. He suggested that i ignore them but you know i can't do that dot.
    we were made for each other. What night did you want to go to that little gelato place at concord?

    so as you have listed your occupation as educating dot could you please please answer them if i list them out for you. You know for my education and all.
    [vvv] i'll do my best.

    1/ what was the name of your biology teacher? (ok that one wasn't there before)

    [vvv] his name was keith. he and his wife used to breed lhasa apso's & he had a small farm just out of bathurst. We used to go out to his place sometimes on the weekend & had some great fun dropping bungers down the bore hole.
    a very smart man, great teacher, really inspiring, one of the few over the years who were.

    2/ vvv said "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line." please please can you provide references for this because i really really cant find it?
    [vvv] you're just not looking hard enough dot. Go on. Unleash your inner blood hound and track it down. I'm cheering for you. It's there. No clues...that would be taking away the thrill of the chase & you need that to keep you sharp.

    3/ is life sign over lisheen an inbred mating?
    [vvv] dot, that is both an extreme & far from real world example you've ponied up there. at the very outset of this whole saga, i believe we 'were' discussing the merits of 2x3's, and (as you saw it) the perils of breeding a son of artsplace to a mare by another son of artsplace with 'the breed increasingly saturated with it' and all. Personally, i still can't for the life of me see the issue but please, move the goal post to a ridiculous position as per above by all means.

    4/your american ideal/ talilia yearling and its parents how do you describe those in terms of line/inbreeding?

    [vvv] geeze, you're putting me on the spot now dot.
    i'm honestly not given to describing them in this fashion because i think it's an often misleading over simplification of that which is more complex... However in the spirit of keeping the debate alive, i'll give it a shot.
    american ideal has quite a unique on paper pedigree in that he is bred 4x3 to full sisters (angel hair & ambiguity) on the damline of his sire, western ideal, and also of his dam, lifetime success.
    for my own purposes i call that sort of arrangement 'family over family' for want of a better term....that as opposed to using the term 'inbred' to describe that, which some may admittedly contest that he is, while others maybe not so much.
    (btw, artistic fella is also bred 'family over family', in his case 2 x 2 to half sisters or 3x3 to easy to easy to love, whatever takes your fancy i guess). Getting back to american ideal, he is also obviously linebred 6x5x4x4x4 to meadow skipper.
    talilia, well the only thing that stands out to me is that she is linebred 2x3 to full siblings lismore & bg's bunny otherwise she is pretty wide open.
    as an aside, her dam, irish town, temperament wise had a mind of her own and was a horseman's horse. Lismore, the dam of albert albert, was also somewhat of a pain in the arse in that respect. This has shown up in talilia as she also has her quirks at time. The flipside is that she leaves really lovely foals. her & i don't get on all that well actually. Nathan has her worked out better than anyone btw.

    its only four little questions vvv, why don't you give it a shot?
    [vvv] indeed. More than happy to keep rolling along with all this dot if you so desire. i can always use the mental calisthenics, especially so when my wife is away on business and the kids are home on school holidays. I can only take just so much sponge bob before i begin to hear squidward's voice in my sleep.
    discussion & debate is also said by some sections of the medical community to greatly aid in staving off early onset alzheimer's. Did i mention that my wife was away? Do you like gelato?

    ps i did physics and chemistry with all the other nerds.
    [vvv] did you sit up the back and carve your initials in the desk with the sharp end of your compass? I did that in maths. Thank god for accounts & clever wives who's fathers were bank managers lest those such as myself end up in the soup line at the matthew talbot hostel.

    and congenital faults have three causes, sporadic, environmental and genetic.
    [vvv] some have a far greater level of occurence and of severity than others too i believe. I found a few good pieces in a book entitled horse genetics by ann t. Bowling.

    quote [ a congenital abnormality is a defect of structure or function evident at birth, not neccessarily caused by defective genes]

    quote [most known genetic diseases of horses do not become evident for months or even years]

    quote [chromosomal and simple single gene issues are ultimately the easiest to document and understand but are rarely seen. Polygenic traits, produced by the interaction of several genes, are more likely to be the source of commonly observed defects such as those of conformation]

    interesting.

    genetic ones can be passed on. Dominant ones directly, and recessive ones are exposed more frequently as an inbred/linebred herd becomes increasingly homozygous.
    [vvv] sounds good in theory but in real world practice i believe that there are very few dominant genetic diseases that ever get passed on (save those quarter horse ones you mentioned before which a mate tells me are not in fact or need not be lethal as they can be treated successfully with medication & mananged with fspecial eed regimes etc) & hat is simply because by definition dominant genetic diseases are effectivly going to self limit within a couple of generations. If the disease is serious enough it will ultimately severely limit the reproductive careers of and/or kill off its bearer/s.
    that's where imo dot you are going over the top somewhat with the spectre of genetic diseases hysteria. They are, in the vast majority of instances, extremely self limiting. They are the by and large the architects of their own demise if you like. They kill themselves off. Ain't nature grand sometimes?
    vvv

  2. #82
    Banned Gelding mary will become famous soon enough
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    Jaimie, your American Ideal fella is a big strong type, good luck with the APG sales.

  3. #83
    Banned Gelding mary will become famous soon enough
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    Mitch, good luck with Gamechanger Tue, hope all goes well with his return.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary View Post
    Jaimie, your American Ideal fella is a big strong type, good luck with the APG sales.
    [VVV] Cheers Mary. He's already very forward/mature for his age & will go early, obviously a good thing APG Sales wise. If you're around out there on the 1st or 2nd then drop by & have a look at him. Matt will have him all polished and at his best.
    Interestingly, his full sister (a current foal) looks like she is going to be a bit taller & maybe a shade longer in the barrel than him which suprised me but it might be as bit of an optical illusion because she is a lot finer built too. Anyone who wants to have come out and take a look at the foals is also welcome to & yes, that includes you Dot. I'll even shout Coffees & Muffins at the Outback Pie Shop in Windsor. Shop around, you can't beat that deal.

  5. #85
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Go on VVV humour me, why is Life Sign over Lisheen not a real world example, one is male, the other female, and foaled a year apart and you've said that it would only be inbreeding if they were from the same maternal family didn't you? Guess you'll say next the owners don't like each other.

    So in your "family over family" assesment of American Ideal does that make him inbred because that is the same imediate dam line, or does it need to be, seeings you've mentioned it, as close as Artistic Fella"s "family over family" arrangement?

    VVV wouldn't be interested of course but since Leon Rasmussen and Romy Faversham published in the 1999 a book called "Inbreeding to Superior Females" that pedigree configuration has been known as Rasmussen Factor Formula One pattern because horses breed this way were often very fast. Rasmussen and Faversham were TB pedigree analysts, but John H Wallace the original creator of the trotting register had made the same observations some hundred years earlier.

    Tell All is another example of the formula one pedigree.

    So Talilia is linebred not inbred, don't two full siblings have the same maternal lines? Just trying to get a handle on your claims about only inbred if from the same maternal family?

    Keep reading VVV you just might get how congenital defects/conformation faults occur and possibly reoccur. In the mean time on top of the reading I have done I have a real world friend and farrier who has spend his last twenty plus springs correcting faults in the foal crops of the two major TB studs in the hawkesbury (and more recently his SO STB foals). These are now regularly the 3rd and 4th generations of these families he has seen, and it has got to the point where in most instances just by knowing which mare the foal is out of he already knows what the defects will be. Don't believe me, He's been around long enough to know Rob Van Dyke well when Rob was a farrier, ask Rob who his daughter went annd greeted at ABEC the other day.

    You aren't in the real world VVV, if a horse has two copies of a dominant gene then it will ALWAYS pass one on, If it has one copy of the dominant gene then it will pass it on 50% of the time but in each instance a horse that receives a copy of the gene it will exhibit the disease. There are in excess of 380,000 horse with HYPP doesn't sound very self limiting does it. Yes this one can be managed some by diet (low potassium) but why don't you ask a human sufferer then perhaps you'd understand why you wouldn't want to breed a horse with it. There is no cure for HERDA and most horses have died or been euthanised as a result before they are 5 years of age.

    The problem with sticking your head in the sand with regard to what may happen VVV means that you don't know the sky is falling until a piece of it has hit you on the butt!


    VVV said & quote "inbreeding in the true sense involves two individuals with the same immediate maternal line" I"ll ask you again to provide a reference for this because without one it clearly has as much accuracy as this-

    [VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.

    Remember where that got you?

    Thanks for the invite but my dance card is kinda full.

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