Majestic Mach

[Triple V]

yes vvv how foolish of you, and yes who else but you?

[vvv] you'd be surprised. It's just that others aren't anywhere near as given to debating with you as i am.

i have not said anywhere that an increase in artsplace blood in the mare population is a bad thing.

[vvv] no, however you've clearly inferred it a number of times without explanation.

what i have said is that a large number of existing artsplace sire line stallions, (sons and grandsons) plus grandsons through stallions with artsplace dams is "bad" for guaranteed individual prospects at stud. This is because of the competition in the marketplace they would provide to guaranteed. Competition is what sets service fees and determines the numbers of mares served thus having an impact on the dollars guaranteed could provide to his australian owners.

[vvv] no, you didn't say that at all dot. You were thinking it perhaps, but posting it as such no...but finally, there's your explanation. Forgive me, for my mind reading powers are not what they once were.
i would have thought if any colt proves himself good enough to be given a chance at stud then the additional facts that he is a son of an absolutely outstanding racemare and one of the all-time great pacing sires & that he is respresentative of an already widely accepted & highly successful sireline in aus would be a huge plus? Apparently though you see it as a cross he must bear?

do you think the market will fall over themselves to use guaranteed just because he is australian foaled and owned?

[vvv] a classic closed question come straw man argument of which you are so very fond dot, and the answer to which is clearly of course not...but if he and others like him were to prove themselves whilst under our conditions on our tracks then you'd at least expect them to be given a chance.


if guaranteed was to race on for several more years to become a genuine grand circuit campaigner and then go to stud do you not think that by then many of our leading broodmares will by the stallions with artsplace blood that have been standing at stud for some years already and increasingly so by the stallions that are at stud now.

[vvv] no, not by a long shot, not by a very long shot. There will be a host of mares by bettor's delight, christian cullen, courage under fire, mach three and so on at stud at the same time. The field to be ploughed by sons and grandsons of artsplace is wide open and all but never ending in that regard. As i said before, the day that we as an industry here in the sthn hemisphere breed ourselves into a corneris the day i will eat my old lawn mowing shoes. This is largely of the same routine that kentuckiana's Ken jackson & his genetics guru hired gun tried on the us breeders when christian cullen went to the us to stand stud. The us pacing fraternity still hasn't bred itself into a genetic corner despite that and other periodic irresponsible chicken little style calls of same from the various alarmists & the southern hemisphere broodmare band is many times more genetically diverse than that of the us & can.

as a son of artsplace then guaranteed to an artsplace mare would be 2x2, to a mare by a son of artsplace then 2x3, and to a mare by a grandson of artsplace 2x 4 to artsplace. You may be happy with that vvv but i could "guarantee" there would be plenty of breeders who would not be.

[vvv] ahuh. The basis for not doing so being that it would not be successful because........???????....because dot said so?
what evidence have you got to suggest it would not work dot? Can you furnish any statistics on this? Or is it just self serving assumption you have made in order to bolster your position?

having increasing numbers of these mares in the population is not bad for the population but it is "bad" for guaranteed's prospects at stud simply because he is likely to be denied many of the best broodmares by virtue of his sire being artsplace.

[vvv] as i said above...there will be a host of mares by bettor's delight, christian cullen, courage under fire, mach three and so on at stud at the same time. The field to be ploughed by sons and grandsons of artsplace is wide open and all but never ending in that regard.


art major is a great sire but how much higher would his rankings be if he could cover mares the calibre of the artsplace mares rocknroll hanover and sbsw do?

[vvv] that applies to all successful sires so it's a moot point.

let me put it this way. I would love to own (wouldn't we all) an undefeated champion stallion prospect because i would be considerably wealthier then i am now, so would the industry from the influx of interest and money that main stream media coverage of such an animal would bring to the industry. If that stallion was not by artsplace or one of artsplace's sons or grandsons but was compatable with their get to produce the next generation of champions then i would be wealthier still.

[vvv] i'll take the horse first & worry about the rest later.


meadow skipper was foaled in 1960 before semen transport and unlimited books and into a much larger and diverse standardbred population then there is today.

[vvv] thanks for the history lesson but it shows you don't read what i write. I wrote meadow skipper blood. Go check. Semen transport most definitely did see his influence spread far, wide and fast via his sons and grandsons and that prompted the same 'there's too much of so and so's blood' in the breed routine that you're suggesting with artsplace here in aus. As i said before, it was wrong then and it will be proven wrong again.

foal numbers are down 35% in north america in about the last 7 years, add an expected drop of another 10% this season for the ontario slots debacle and thats nearly only half the population there was with far fewer stallions of diversified lines at stud.

[vvv] far fewer lines? Not so... But believe what you like. Nothing i can say will change your mind.

Australia's and nz populations are dropping too its not on the door step just yet but the potential to breed ourselves into a corner with current practices and numbers is certainly there.

[vvv] direct from ken jackson's school of genetic alarmists. Will not happen.

My advice to you vvv is buy a new pair of lawn mowing shoes now, then they wont be too grose when you need to eat them.

[vvv] i'll send them to you. I suggest a little salt & pepper and some tomato sauce.

vvv

[Triple V]

Cant imagine why you'd think I wouldn't notice your comment Brad, I do actually read whats written

VVV I don't believe I have written off Guaranteeds chances at stud just put them in perspective. I don't find Grand Stride particularly appealing personally and would say he needs to do way more yet before he would be considered a stud prospect. Not completely sold yet on either Carribean Blaster or Excel Stride and may never be. Carribean Blaster is by a more commercial sire then ES though BD's daughters have made more impact then his sons, has a couple of big features on his resume and is already part owned by Alabar so will have their marketing and client base to help and has a pedigree that suits an increasing representation of Artsplace in the mare population.

Excel Stride doesnt have quite the resume of CB nor the commercial advantages and a pedigree that is probably better suited to the NZ mare population. I'd imagine there are still many opportunities for both to further enhance or negate their appeal at stud on the track still.

[VVV] What about Restrepo?

[dizzy]

VVV I'll take your word for it that you have a posse right behind you. Clearly I cant tell what you may choose to read into my posts to suit your own agenda. I say again I have not said anywhere that an increase of Artsplace blood in out population is a bad thing nor do I believe I inferred it that way. How you interpret what I write is of course up to you.

Your desire to see Guaranteed off to stud was based on his opportunity to retain industry dollars in Australia as opposed to them being wired transfered to the US. My point was not that Guaranteed was not suitable for an opportunity at stud but that the existing and increasing representation of his sireline Artsplace would impact on his capacity to earn dollars to be retained in the industry. My original point about supporting Majestic Mach is and remains that his undefeated staus, should he retain it, provides an unparrelled opportunity to bring new money into the industry that only the support of mainstream media can generate. If the industry is going to survive let alone prosper then new interest and investment needs to be fostered at every possible opportunity.

OK so you think Bettors Delight and the Direct Scooter lines sires daughters will be better broodmares then those produced by sires with Artsplace blood? Perhaps then Guaranteed should stand in NZ, that would be good for our balance of trade, an Australian owned stallion standing OS.

So breeding a increasingly smaller number of stallions of increasingly similar genotype over a larger number of individual mares of increasingly similar genotype in an overall population that is declining in total numbers isn't bad for genetic diversity then VVV? How do you figure that? You build a pyramid then eventually you will reach the top. Perhaps you should do some reading on inbred depression and gene mutation. Impressive but tragic what Impressive did for the Quarter horse population, which numbers around 5 million, and they haven't bred the problem out.

As to the success of inbreeding on the sireline I tender human ingenuity and four hundred odd years of history as a basis for concluding it is largely unsuccesfull for producing superior horses on the track. We have been breeding TB's and STB's for a combined total of around 400 years. It can take as little as 10 years for a representative number of stock from 2x2 and 2x3 crosses to hit the track, a little more then that for 2x4, so how many opportunities have there been in our four hundred year breeding history to produce and assess these crossess? Far more then enough for us to draw some meaningful conclusions on the practice. If it was so to speak the ducks guts for producing success on the track then don't you think that us ingenious humans would not be breeding all our racing stock that way?

As for the actual success rate for Artsplace himself bred that way it remains to be seen, so far Im not aware of an outstanding horse bred that way but here is your opportunity VVV to enlighten me. Artsplace is a great sire and broodmare sire but I for one am very content to allow others to see if he can buck history.

Artsplace is the best broodmare sire since Albatross, some would say better and its moot point whether a sire can cover Artsplace daughters or not? Hardly.

Meadow Skippers blood is indeed spread far and wide however was originately desiminated amongst a larger and more diverse population and spread by a greater number of sons/grandsons then Artsplaces will be and into a smaller total population. You obviously have trouble with the concept VVV but there can actually be too much of a good thing.


As for Restrepo I would imagine he has some more to do on the track before being considered as a commercial sire prospect.

[aussiebreno]

[dizzy]

Brenno we do have both, and at least several more. But I'll be cheering for Majestic Mach

[dizzy]

You know, something just occurred to me re: this debate about the influence of Artsplace sons here in AUS.
It is just the 'there's too much Meadow Skipper blood in the breed' routine...but with the names changed. It was proven a furphy theory back then and it will be so once again
The day that the Australian and NZ broodmare bands get saturated with the influence of any one sireline to the detriment thereof...is the day I'll eat my old lawn mowing shoes.

If it can happen to the quarterhorse breed VVV why cant it happen to ours?

www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HYPP.asp

www.aqha.com.au/registry_services/generic_HERDA.asp

www.allbreedpedigree.com/impressive6

www.allbreedpedigree.com/poco+bueno


Impressive is bred 2X3x4 on the sire lines to Three Bars, can no one see this pedigree configuration being tried with Artsplace in the not to distant future ? There are a number of yearlings bred 2x3 to Artsplace in this years APG catalouge. Impressive and Three Bars could only ever be described as outstanding horses and neither had the disease themselves. Poco Bueno likewise. Ironically those horses that are affected by the diseases originated by Impressive and Poco Bueno also exhibit their most desired characteristics as well.

[dizzy]

HYPP is a simple dominant gene, in order to have the disease a horse must inherit the gene directly from one or both parents who will have the disease that they inherited directly from one of their parents. Thus Impressive may appear only once or multiple times in the pedigree of an affected horse. HERDA is a recessive gene and in order for a horse to be effected Poco Bueno must appear at least once on both the top and bottom of the pedigree. His presence can easily be as far removed as seven or eight generations before the problem shows itself in his descendants.

There is to date no known HYPP or similar in standardbreds however it is impossible to say that a gene mutation cannot occur as a result of inbreeding in the standardbred. HERDA or anything like it has not been identified in the standardbred either to date but it is also impossible to say that a similar occurrence cannot occur in our breed. Inbreeding is not a new phenomomen and was not restricted to quarter horses.

I would like to say that this is not at all direct at Guaranteed, he is a lovely colt and should be given his opportunity at stud if his performances warrant it. My original comments regarding Guaranteed were solely with reguard to his need to compete commercialy in the market place with other horses with Artsplace blood. VVV turned that into my having some kind of tirade against Artsplace blood. Not so Artsplace is argueably the best stallion ever in the breed and his blood should be sort after but judiciously. The same would apply to any other desirable ancestor.



No doubt VVV will come right on back and say that I am an alarmist, but with a closed stud book and a relatively small population I would simply say he is naive.

[Triple V]

Dot, seriously. HYPP???????? Level with me. You haven't got both oars in the water eh?

[dizzy]

Dot, seriously. HYPP???????? Level with me. You haven't got both oars in the water eh?

HYPP is Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis. There is actually a human version of this.

HERDA is Heriditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia.

So yes VVV SERIOUSLY, you need to get out more.

[Triple V]

As a son of Artsplace then Guaranteed to an Artsplace mare would be 2x2, to a mare by a son of Artsplace then 2x3, and to a mare by a grandson of Artsplace 2x 4 to Artsplace. You may be happy with that VVV but I could "guarantee" there would be plenty of breeders who would not be.

[VVV] The really hilarious aspect to the above statement Dot is that of the half dozen or so yearlings bred 2x3, 2x4, 3x2 etc to Artsplace that are set to sell in the upcoming APG Sales, 4 or 5 are being offered by 3 of Australia's leading/most successful Breeders. Imagine that?