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Thread: Presidential Ball as a broodmare sire/Northern Luck as a Sire info required.

  1. #11
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Jamie with the "quite a few" better performers closely linebred to Cam Fella on the sire line what is that %age wise to number of foals bred that way as that is the telling statistic? Don't know the colt Wearable Art but will take it he was a very nice colt. For those into breeding theories his dams grand sire Cam Fella would appear to be good match for the principle of returning to the sire the best blood of his dam, but as his dam is also directly descended from the same female family (Miss Duvall, the most prolific family in modern times) as Art Major in that Rotate is a full sister to Romola Hanover (hall of fame broodmare) a son of Artsplace over this female family may also have something to do with this colts ability. Of course it could all have just been luck. For mine Kevin/James you need to delve a bit further back into the mares pedigree then just the sire to make informed decisions

  2. #12
    Junior Member Weanling Kevin Dinnigan will become famous soon enough Kevin Dinnigan's Avatar
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    Thanks to all Replied.

    Hi all.
    Thanks for all the replies.
    Looking further into Cam Fella line breeding..check out the breeding of Cammibest..
    That's what you call line breeding?
    3rd generation xs to Most Happy Fella and Harold J in both sire and maternal lines.
    Then check out his best progeny in Australia Pub Blitz..This season rated 1.52 and $132k to date..Even more Most Happy Fella blood??

  3. #13
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    Kevin Cammibest is actually inbred not linebred as the duplications are in the third generation. The mantra from the TB pedigree scholars is inbreeding on the sire line is rarely successful (though they are less dogmatic about it since Northern Dancer came along) unless there is an equally strong representation of females from an unrelated line which is what Cammibest demonstrates. Pub Blitz is inbred to Tyler B through a son and daughter which is preferable to through 2 sons. Big Band Sound is a 7/8 brother to TylerB which makes Pub Blitz even more in/linebred. Fortitude Hanover has Breath of Spring in his pedigree which is Harold J full sister, something Tesio was big on, and possibly more significant then the in/line breeding to MHF

    Harvey's Grinfromeartoear/Presidential Ball example "Not Enough" dam is by Presidential Ball out of the dam of Cammibest so is a actually a 3/4 relation to Cammibest as PB and Cambest are both by Cam Fella and she is inbred to MHF. "Not Enough "also has the full brother and sister Harold J and Breath of Spring 4x 4 as well as another strain of B of S. which would be the Tesio enthusiasts key to her success.

    Harveys other example is "Monkey on my Wheel" by Mach Three who has demonstrated quite a lotof success with mares by sons of Cam Fella in North America and here. Mach Three may be out of your reach but he has a full brother standing in NZ Extreme Three who wasn't as good a racehorse and is still largely unproven as a sire but it's reasonable to assume would do best with the same lines that his brother has.

  4. #14
    Senior Member 2YO Starship Captain will become famous soon enough Starship Captain's Avatar
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    Dizzy, I hope you are not recommending to breed to a full brother of a great race horse/good sire. That would be a bad call IMO.

  5. #15
    Senior Member 4YO dizzy will become famous soon enough
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    So Jason you wouldn't send a mare to Roll With Joe on the basis he is Bettors Delights full brother? It's not a recommendation by the way but an observation/consideration. Given that most stallions are deemed failures at stud its probable that brothers are not likely to be as successfull at stud as each other. Red River, Rustler and Righteous Hanover are not a patch on their 3/4 sibling Rock n Roll Hanover but then Angus, Andover and Conway Hall are all in the top 10 sires list in the US. Interestingly the top 2 sellers at the US yearling sales were the full brothers to Somebeachsomewhere and Donato Hanover for a lot of coin if you don't think they are stud prospects at least.

    If you are planning matings on pedigree factors then sometimes the only way to get what you are looking for is to use a lesser brother or son of the chosen stallion. It doesn't always work out bad, Tesio wanted to send Nogara to Fairway but couldn't get a nomination so sent her to Fairway's lessor performed brother Pharos, the resulting colt being Nearco and the rest is history

  6. #16
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dizzy View Post
    kevin cammibest is actually inbred not linebred as the duplications are in the third generation.

    [vvv] for mine he's linebred to most happy fella and harold j, tightly/closely linebred it is true, but inbred? No.
    his sire & dam are from different maternal families therefore it is impossible for him to be inbred in the true genetic sense of the term.
    i've long believed it is irresponsible of the breeding industry to adopt terminology that is at odds with genetic realities because all that does is serve to further cloud an already difficult to determine picture. For starters, dna does not recognise the human imposed deliniations of 3rd and closer removes as opposed to 4th and further removes or any other such arrangement of numbers.
    those aspects were instead created by humans to allow fellow humans to simplify and duly pigeon hole various aspects of breeding that have genetic truths which are much, much more involved and complicated.

    the mantra from the tb pedigree scholars is inbreeding on the sire line is rarely successful (though they are less dogmatic about it since northern dancer came along)
    [vvv] they've had their individual and collective heads shoved up their arses for years. The overwhelming success of linebreeding to meadow skipper alone puts paid to those who subscribe to that theory.

    unless there is an equally strong representation of females from an unrelated line which is what cammibest demonstrates.
    [vvv]...a fact which puts paid to him being inbred in the true genetic sense of the term.

    pub blitz is inbred to tyler b through a son and daughter which is preferable to through 2 sons. Big band sound is a 7/8 brother to tylerb which makes pub blitz even more in/linebred. Fortitude hanover has breath of spring in his pedigree which is harold j full sister, something tesio was big on, and possibly more significant then the in/line breeding to mhf.
    [vvv] interestingly bred horse.

    harvey's grinfromeartoear/presidential ball example "not enough" dam is by presidential ball out of the dam of cammibest so is a actually a 3/4 relation to cammibest as pb and cambest are both by cam fella and she is inbred to mhf. "not enough "also has the full brother and sister harold j and breath of spring 4x 4 as well as another strain of b of s. Which would be the tesio enthusiasts key to her success.
    [vvv] like black caviar, post their success there is always someone who will point to this aspect or that aspect of a horse's pedigree as being 'the key' to it all. If such things were in fact so self evident all along, one wonders why the pedigree boffins and breeding consultants do not apply their analysis, identify such horses, put their $ where their mouths are and snap up these future champions.

    Harveys other example is "monkey on my wheel" by mach three who has demonstrated quite a lotof success with mares by sons of cam fella in north america and here. Mach three may be out of your reach but he has a full brother standing in nz extreme three who wasn't as good a racehorse and is still largely unproven as a sire but it's reasonable to assume would do best with the same lines that his brother has.
    vvv
    Last edited by Triple V; 06-14-2012 at 01:38 PM. Reason: shocking spelling erros

  7. #17
    Senior Member 2YO Starship Captain will become famous soon enough Starship Captain's Avatar
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    Of course I would send a mare to Roll with Joe based on his track record and his brothers, but IMO Extreme Three's ability as a race horse cannot
    be compared to Roll with Joe's.
    When we are selecting a stallion we put ability/race record as one of many important factors, unless of course the sire is already proven and in doing so
    we let other breeder's test the muddy water's of this kind of sire.

  8. #18
    Senior Member 2YO HISGEN65 will become famous soon enough HISGEN65's Avatar
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    Great thread lads...Although I think breeding is pretty much a lottery its
    advantageous to research your options...as I find it hard to understand all
    the technical generics regarding horse breeding I do enjoy reading peoples
    expertise..I agree with Dizzy,I think alot of people dont reseach their mares pedigree hard enough..here is the breeding of my mare,I would extremely interested to hear your breeding advice on her
    THE GOLD RUSH NZ Foaling Date: 07-Dec-2005 Sex:Filly Sire:PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA Dam:GOLDEN CHARM (NZ) Broodmare Sire:NEW YORK MOTORING USA

  9. #19
    Senior Member 2YO Starship Captain will become famous soon enough Starship Captain's Avatar
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    Art Major p,4,1.48.4 $3,273,217
    from the mares breeding would she benefit from a sire that was going to up size her offspring?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HISGEN65 View Post
    Great thread lads...Although I think breeding is pretty much a lottery its
    advantageous to research your options...as I find it hard to understand all
    the technical generics regarding horse breeding I do enjoy reading peoples
    expertise..I agree with Dizzy,I think alot of people dont reseach their mares pedigree hard enough..here is the breeding of my mare,I would extremely interested to hear your breeding advice on her
    THE GOLD RUSH NZ Foaling Date: 07-Dec-2005 Sex:Filly Sire:PRESIDENTIAL BALL USA Dam:GOLDEN CHARM (NZ) Broodmare Sire:NEW YORK MOTORING USA
    [VVV] G'day James,
    Fashionable bloodlines and this cross and that cross and all the rest of the hocus pocus, smoke and mirrors & general bollocks aside, first and foremost we are breeding flesh and blood. With that in mind I'd have a crack at a horse with real frame size to him and one that tends to leave them very much in his own image...Sutter Hanover. My brother's got a really thumping Sutter colt, he's a weanling but he is already a big boy but he is not coarse with it which is nice. This is him with his dam at 8 days short of 3 months old. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ39J49IaCk. His name's Ned. He is even bigger than this now, that was 6 months ago.

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