Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats? - Richard Freedman on TripleM Radio

[mark diegutis]

Hi Greg . I was told that the horse was given to a prominent trainer out west and couldn't get hot . He was spelled after the pony trot . Pony trots are run every month at Newcastle , so we might see you there and boldenone is used if you want an improved performance . It achieves an increased level of natural EPO and gives the horse an increased appetite as well as building muscle . You can work them harder than would be normal therefore achieving a much higher level of fitness . Steroids are prescribed to help a horse heal after a severe injury or to pick them up when ill and won't eat . Not when they're winning races .

[barney]

Mark it is good to read somebody actually saying it as it is.We had someone on here who said Luke should be allowed to use whatever method as he was the top trainer.A lot of people were banned from here and i personally received some abuse via a pm because i dared to question Lukes methods. Was told what a great trainer he was and could improve horses out of sight by using new training methods.

[Triple V]

Most trainers agree with you Mark however find it difficult to articulate what you've said and don't know what to do about the problems that they see. Where do they go?

Jamie and others fell in love with Luke McCarthy and screamed tall poppy syndrome and jealousy to anyone questioning his miraculous strike rate and ability to improve a horse in such a short space of time. They shouted everyone down by saying that because he's never been caught doping then he's not a drug cheat. Then when Luke got the Boldenone positive and we get a new argument from them. E.g. from Bill Williams that we can't call him a cheat for this single offence. Al Capone is often referred to as the greatest American gangster, however was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I guess Bill Williams and Jamie Varcoe still wouldn't call Al Capone a gangster?

Good luck to Luke. He's truly the smartest and even if he's outed, he'll retain his clients and operate through others. He's got strong sponsorship and is perceived by some at the top as being good for the game. Many more will get caught with drugs as they'll have to try something to compete. Otherwise, they may as well give up.

[VVV] C'mon now Jett.
You can do better than that surely. You know what really spins my head about all this?
Yourself, Mark & others have gone on & on about Luke McCarthy having picked up a single Boldenone positive, which is of course your right...and yet in the last week or so Shannon Wonson went for a 3 year stretch (which IMO was a manifestly too short a time) for a far more heinous substance in EPO.
To date, quite inexplicably, none of you have said so much as a word about it on here?
Do yourself and others not see the sizeable measure of duplicity in that?

As for the lame arse Al Capone dig, it might've escaped your attention but I've repeatedly called for the, IMO, disgracefully compressed list of new penalties recently released here in NSW to be significantly stretched out from top to bottom....for example, 3 months for 1st offence therapeutic overages such as bute etc. through to 10 years 1st offence EPO & similar substances...so your inferrence that I'm barracking for such people is quite clearly not the case. Instead I'm hoping that yourself & others might get some perspective here & realise that as an Industry we must never lose sight of the fundementals.

- We are a wagering based industry.

- We need to supply a consistent, reliable wagering product to the Punters.

- With the level of competition facing the average racehorse today, in order to provide and to maitain the long term provision of a consistent, reliable wagering product...it is an absolute MUST that we have a series of thresholds in place allowing Trainers to treat horses with designated equine therapeutics. Bute, Jurocyl etc. (that nonsense going on in NZ is quite staggering to say the least...Caco Copper Iron scoring positives that will likely lose people races???? Gimme a freaking break. INSANE! )

- In order to achieve all of that, we need to have quantitative testing in place, something which for the most part we currently do not have. Instead we have a system which largely relies upon a black and white 'yes it is present' (the actual amounts present & associated pharmacological activity aspects of same be damnned) or 'no it is not' & sir, you're clear.

That sort of a system Jett...it is just INSANE. Remember, these are race horses. They are competition horses. They get bangs & bumps & bruises. They get tired, they get sick, they get sore. There is a better way.

I simply want what is best and most practicle for the Industry and above all else for the horses that we time and again ask to go down the road, week in, week out, year in, year out. I would no more give a horse anything that was detrimental to it's health & wellbeing than I would hit myself in the Jatz with a brick hammer.
If anything I am too far the other way.
That in and of itself motivates me every single day to keep the therapeutics debate alive & kicking in order to hopefully slowly but surely see Harness Racing move towards a much better way of doing things than we currently have at hand.

Ironically, as I understand it Luke actually got a Boldenone overage...there is a threshold in place for it and it is able to be tested for on a quantitative basis.
That aside, we need thresholds for a whole host of other equine therapeutics for which, as I said above we currently do not have quantitative testing in place...duly leaving Trainers at the mercy of a fundementally prehistoric regulatory approach.

[Triple V]

Mark it is good to read somebody actually saying it as it is.We had someone on here who said Luke should be allowed to use whatever method as he was the top trainer.A lot of people were banned from here and i personally received some abuse via a pm because i dared to question Lukes methods. Was told what a great trainer he was and could improve horses out of sight by using new training methods.

[VVV] G'day Brian, I recall those comments and the person who said that was a multiple Fake ID member & was acting as an 'urger' to stir up the anti brigade. He was punted accordingly. If someone abuses you via PM either block them or if you feel strongly enough about it let Jules or Tony know and they'll punt the person/s responsible.

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=mark diegutis;21916]

Hi Jaimie . You must really think that there is some great cover up . These anti doping agencies aren't a billion dollar industry . The're a billion dollar cost to an even bigger industry that has to be cleaned up to survive . Like athletics , cycling was starting to struggle with confidence . They have rebuilt by introducing the most demanding and invasive rule changes to ensure as level a playing field as possible . Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong aren't pawns , the're cheats and the racing industry is the only group of people that could twist it around to be something else . I'll bet the Lance Armstrong Velodrome will be renamed where as the racing industry wants to change a venues name to one of its "stars" after they get a positive . The're cheats Jaimie , just cheats .

[VVV] G'day Mark,
So where exactly do you think all the $$$ is going for all the testing that is being carried out across all avenues of professional/competitive sport where participants stand to gain financially?
It's going straight to the Testing Labs & duly apperaing upon the balance sheets of the companies that own them, that's where it's going.
It's all about the kanga mate, the almighty dollar. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Obviously the massive Industry behind the anti-doping agencies has convinced you of their completely altruistic, non-profit motives.
Don't get me wrong, there is always going to be a need for testing...but it is also an inescapable fact that old mates behind the scenes are far from being adverse to ramping up the hysteria now and again in order to keep it all rolling along. Do you honestly believe Lobbyists from that Industry have not had contact with the Office of The NSW Racing Minister, past or present? Why would they do that...hmmmm, I wonder?

[Danno]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21928]

[VVV] G'day Mark,
So where exactly do you think all the $$$ is going for all the testing that is being carried out across all avenues of professional/competitive sport where participants stand to gain financially?
It's going straight to the Testing Labs & duly apperaing upon the balance sheets of the companies that own them, that's where it's going.
It's all about the kanga mate, the almighty dollar. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Obviously the massive Industry behind the anti-doping agencies has convinced you of their completely altruistic, non-profit motives.
Don't get me wrong, there is always going to be a need for testing...but it is also an inescapable fact that old mates behind the scenes are far from being adverse to ramping up the hysteria now and again in order to keep it all rolling along. Do you honestly believe Lobbyists from that Industry have not had contact with the Office of The NSW Racing Minister, past or present? Why would they do that...hmmmm, I wonder?

G'day Jamie,
I see the tour de france is in the press today with another doping story..must be those tricky anti-doping agency lobbyists again hey?

I've got a simple question for you, do you think Barry Lew and Luke McCarthy are cheats? and if the answer is no, then why not?

[racefair]

[VVV] C'mon now Jett.
You can do better than that surely. You know what really spins my head about all this?
Yourself, Mark & others have gone on & on about Luke McCarthy having picked up a single Boldenone positive, which is of course your right...and yet in the last week or so Shannon Wonson went for a 3 year stretch (which IMO was a manifestly too short a time) for a far more heinous substance in EPO.
To date, quite inexplicably, none of you have said so much as a word about it on here?
Do yourself and others not see the sizeable measure of duplicity in that?

As for the lame arse Al Capone dig, it might've escaped your attention but I've repeatedly called for the, IMO, disgracefully compressed list of new penalties recently released here in NSW to be significantly stretched out from top to bottom....for example, 3 months for 1st offence therapeutic overages such as bute etc. through to 10 years 1st offence EPO & similar substances...so your inferrence that I'm barracking for such people is quite clearly not the case. Instead I'm hoping that yourself & others might get some perspective here & realise that as an Industry we must never lose sight of the fundementals.

- We are a wagering based industry.

- We need to supply a consistent, reliable wagering product to the Punters.

- With the level of competition facing the average racehorse today, in order to provide and to maitain the long term provision of a consistent, reliable wagering product...it is an absolute MUST that we have a series of thresholds in place allowing Trainers to treat horses with designated equine therapeutics. Bute, Jurocyl etc. (that nonsense going on in NZ is quite staggering to say the least...Caco Copper Iron scoring positives that will likely lose people races???? Gimme a freaking break. INSANE! )

- In order to achieve all of that, we need to have quantitative testing in place, something which for the most part we currently do not have. Instead we have a system which largely relies upon a black and white 'yes it is present' (the actual amounts present & associated pharmacological activity aspects of same be damnned) or 'no it is not' & sir, you're clear.

That sort of a system Jett...it is just INSANE. Remember, these are race horses. They are competition horses. They get bangs & bumps & bruises. They get tired, they get sick, they get sore. There is a better way.

I simply want what is best and most practicle for the Industry and above all else for the horses that we time and again ask to go down the road, week in, week out, year in, year out. I would no more give a horse anything that was detrimental to it's health & wellbeing than I would hit myself in the Jatz with a brick hammer.
If anything I am too far the other way.
That in and of itself motivates me every single day to keep the therapeutics debate alive & kicking in order to hopefully slowly but surely see Harness Racing move towards a much better way of doing things than we currently have at hand.

Ironically, as I understand it Luke actually got a Boldenone overage...there is a threshold in place for it and it is able to be tested for on a quantitative basis.
That aside, we need thresholds for a whole host of other equine therapeutics for which, as I said above we currently do not have quantitative testing in place...duly leaving Trainers at the mercy of a fundementally prehistoric regulatory approach.

Thanks for your reply Jamie. This thread was started with Richard Freedman's comments about testing alone not catching or stopping the cheats and we digress.

Luke McCarthy - You're right, a Boldenone positive on it's own isn't a hanging offence. Luke McCarthy was getting results only previously seen through drug enhancement. Show me where else in any other sport? Where is the logic in not thinking that there's a good chance that his improvements are beyond feed, nutrition and training alone? Someone expressed a comment that it's just the one that he got caught with.

Scale and Magnitude - Wonson's strike rate has never got close to McCarthy's. He isn't in most races beating you from any barrier. He placed 9th with the horse on EPO.

Duplicity - I've highlighted some miraculous improvements by the likes of Thorn, Hancock and Wilson in the past. Remember our exchanges on Dartmoor? You've often got these interesting views on reasons for their improvements. Such as a drop in class, being driven american style, being more professional using scales and the list goes on.
The challenge that I have is that most trainers and drivers think that those reasons are a joke. These are the guys at the coal face.

Quantitative testing - no argument from me on this Jamie.

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Who is the more important customer of Harness Racing? Is it the Punter or the Owner? You've mentioned that we need a consistent wagering product. Does the perception of that take precedence over a level playing field for the owners and trainers?

[Triple V]

[QUOTE=Danno;21930]

G'day Jamie,
I see the tour de france is in the press today with another doping story..must be those tricky anti-doping agency lobbyists again hey?

[VVV] G'day Dan,
No, you're not reading what I've posted closely enough. The anti-doping agencies are merely the public face of it all & largely passive partners, though partners they most certainly are. The Lobbyists are the ones paid by the Testing Industry & are the active though largely behind the scenes mouthpieces for same.

I've got a simple question for you, do you think Barry Lew and Luke McCarthy are cheats? and if the answer is no, then why not?

[VVV] That's one of those 'You're rooted if do you answer, you're rooted if you don not' sorts of questions Dan but no matter. I'm your Huckleberry.

Do I think they're cheats? No, I don't.

Why? Because my gut feeling tells me it is a miscalculated use of a designated equine therapeutic substance, one that has been very widely used throughout both equine Racing codes specifically as a recovery/maintainence aid for as long as I can remember. For that they will pay whatever the penalty is that is ultimately dished out to them.

Dan, if I were to tell you what I would do as a Trainer insofar as basic stable management was concerned & given that I had horses that were racing as hard as they are asked to race these days...I strongly suspect you & others would scream the house down & suggest I was a crook or a cheat or that I was someone looking to defraud the public and/or my fellow participants, but anyone who knows me knows that is not and never would be the case.
The health & welfare of my horses is & would always be first & foremost in my mind and I'd never do anything I even remotely suspected would be harmful to them.
Nevertheless, under the current regime, the way I would approach week to week maintenance, health & welfare I am sure would likely put me at odds with the current regulatory approach.
Further to this, I am pretty sure that is how both Luke & Barry have come to grief.
Neither are cheats, neither are bad people, neither are deserving of the level of villification they receive here and elsewhere. Give them a bagging if you must however some of the comments on here are pretty rugged.
Surely that sort of venom should be saved up for those who REALLY transgress...courtesy of Meth, EPO etc...however I suspect it will not be the case.

Dan, I've just put it in bold to make a distinction.

[Danno]

Jamie,
the steroids have been barred for about twenty years mate, I ,like everyone else used them as a training aid when they were legal, but as I said they haven't been for many,many years, so I reckon it's a bit of a stretch to say the guys are unlucky or anything like it, the horses were obviously at the very LEAST trained up on it, or maybe the Boldeneone was a small dose in conjuction with others??
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

On the animal welfare side to it Jamie, we who were using steroids years ago had no idea what we were doing to the horses long term, one of the main reasons steroids were barred was because of the long term detrimental side affects the horses would suffer down the track.

On that basis alone, I will never use them again for any reason, there are other ways to assist an animal to recover from injury or illness than to destroy its long term health.

Cheers,
Dan

[Triple V]

Jamie,
The fact is both came up with positives for Boldenone, which has a threshold level only because it can be naturally occuring in entires.

[VVV] I supect that's the very crux of it all Dan. Both of the horses that tested positive were Entires. I'd bet my Jatz Crackers that Boldenone and similar substances are being used as a post race recover aid with absolute impunity on the geldings of both racing codes throughout the country but because they are sans the aformentioned tackle they will duly go under the threshold when tested. It is no for no less complicated than that.