Can Drug Testing alone catch or stop DRUG cheats? - Richard Freedman on TripleM Radio

[dizzy]

Bill steroids have been around for years, and years ago Boldonone did test as you say. Now a new version tests for as little as 17 days and then only that long using a very specific testing method. I'm sure someone will correct me here if I'm wrong but if Boldonone had been used in a therapeutic recovery protocol wouldn't it have been administered or at least supplied by a "legitimate" vet as VVV said we don't tend to have bodgy ones. Wouldn't then the exact amount and time of administration be known? Wouldn't the trainers know what had been administered to horses in their care instead of publicly stating they didn't know what Boldonone was?

Yes Harvey there is a massive difference between therapeautic substances and things that shouldn't be found in a horse EVER. The NZ authorities raised the bar on testing by sending swabs to Hong Kong, and they didn't hide the fact that they were going to send them to Hong Kong. That should have served as sufficient warning to both vets and trainers that they should review their current treatment regimes as I'm sure, particularly after Tim Butt returned a positive here from the Hong Kong lab, that the capabilities of the Hong Kong Lab to detect prohibitive substances is well known in NZ. If they didn't do so then they did that at there own risk, arsenic is listed as an ingredient on Caco Copper Iron I believe.

And as to the scale of penalties recently released by HRNSW I am in total agreement with VVV here and no it doesn't pain me at all to say it.

[Lethal]

If the testing by thr HKJC is so unfair, where are all the positives arising out of the most tested racehorses of any country. The NZ industry was warned that some swab samples were to be sent to the HKJC and you now can see the result. It is easy to go to the HKJC website and have a look at their document 'A List of Questions that are Frequently Asked by Visiting International Trainers' where it would seem blatantly obvious what they are about.
It seems that overseas galloping trainers do just that (except Joe Janiac) as positive swabs are at a minimum.

[teecee]

Yes Harvey there is a massive difference between therapeautic substances and things that shouldn't be found in a horse EVER. The NZ authorities raised the bar on testing by sending swabs to Hong Kong, and they didn't hide the fact that they were going to send them to Hong Kong. That should have served as sufficient warning to both vets and trainers that they should review their current treatment regimes as I'm sure, particularly after Tim Butt returned a positive here from the Hong Kong lab, that the capabilities of the Hong Kong Lab to detect prohibitive substances is well known in NZ. If they didn't do so then they did that at there own risk, arsenic is listed as an ingredient on Caco Copper Iron I believe.


Excerpt from Harnesslink on NZ situation.
http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=99072

[mark diegutis]

Trainers have been using anabolic steroids for years there is a legitimate veterinary use for them in animal recovery the substance Luke was found guilty of using has been around for years sure testing procedures have improved ... so as VVV says catch up football and we have caught up when they first started to find it it was thought it hung around for about 42 days that rolled out to 56 then to 72 truth is no one bloody knows, because it can and has been proven to fluctuate. labeling Luke Mc Carthy a drug cheat on one positive to a substance that many vets would still prescribe in certain circumstances is simply bloody overkill and to have a crack at the media for talking up the leading trainer driver for winning group one races well that is just laughable.

Some of you need to one of two things, get a life or adapt to living in the real world.

Hi Bill . Yes trainers have been using steroids for years or , more correctly , trainers have been cheating for years . Boldenone is not a recovery substance to use whilst your horse is still racing . There is only 1 reason for using it on a horse thats racing and lets not forget that his best mate who stays at his place also went positive . You can't tell me they both needed a recovery bullet and where is Karloo kix now . Can't win a pony race at Bathurst Show . Vets may still prescribe this drug , in certain circumstances , but a horse that needs it would not be able to race let alone race like those 2 were racing . I don't see this as 1 positive . I see it as the 1 he got caught with . You've obviously been in harness racing as an official for most of your working life . Maybe your the one who needs to get a real life . If you accept this sort of drug use then youve been around cheats for far too long . Alot of people have attempted to adapt to your real world and 30 or so of them have gone positive . People have been trying to change the real world since the year dot . Without change we would still have slavery in America , we would never have seen Evon Goolagong or , for you Tigers fans , Larry Corrowa . Women would not be allowed to vote . {maybe thats not a good argument} The real world stinks Bill and if harness racing doesn't change its finished . At least for us and many , many others . In the last 24hrs Ive been contacted by people that I have never met and they have decided to cancel any plans of puting their mares in foal . A total of 15 and 10 of those are going on the doggers truck . What would you and VVV do without harness racing or this forum . Don't tell me to get a life Bill . Ive already got a great one and if I had to decend into your world I'll give harness racing the flick .

[mark diegutis]

[QUOTE=Triple V;21898]

Re: Lance Armstrong...that goes to the very heart of what I've just said above.
What you are seeing with these anti-doping agencies is in fact shameless positioning and rampant arse covering to the point of feverishness...just in case he is found beyond doubt to have been giving himself a lift and for years and years and they are exposed as having repeatedly missed it.
At the core it really has got little or nothing to do with Armstrong per se and instead all to do with the multi-billion dollar international industry that is & that surrounds drug testing. Like Ben Johnson before him, Armstrong's just the very latest of their Pawns to be moved around the board.

Hi Jaimie . You must really think that there is some great cover up . These anti doping agencies aren't a billion dollar industry . The're a billion dollar cost to an even bigger industry that has to be cleaned up to survive . Like athletics , cycling was starting to struggle with confidence . They have rebuilt by introducing the most demanding and invasive rule changes to ensure as level a playing field as possible . Ben Johnson and Lance Armstrong aren't pawns , the're cheats and the racing industry is the only group of people that could twist it around to be something else . I'll bet the Lance Armstrong Velodrome will be renamed where as the racing industry wants to change a venues name to one of its "stars" after they get a positive . The're cheats Jaimie , just cheats .

[doinmabest]

Mark, I made the rename the venue comment post race with full knowledge no such renaming would ever occur... It was a throwaway comment made in the heat of the moment.... So it was not the industry that called for the renaming, it was me alone and to my knowledge no one else made such a call....as I said, accept that I never intended to offend....But take on board, it was purely post race ad lib and nobody in any authority would of even for a nano second given consideration to renaming anything that I suggested.... If however I could come up with some ad lib to get my kids to eat their peas!!!!!! Even they don't listen...

[racefair]

Most trainers agree with you Mark however find it difficult to articulate what you've said and don't know what to do about the problems that they see. Where do they go?

Jamie and others fell in love with Luke McCarthy and screamed tall poppy syndrome and jealousy to anyone questioning his miraculous strike rate and ability to improve a horse in such a short space of time. They shouted everyone down by saying that because he's never been caught doping then he's not a drug cheat. Then when Luke got the Boldenone positive and we get a new argument from them. E.g. from Bill Williams that we can't call him a cheat for this single offence. Al Capone is often referred to as the greatest American gangster, however was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I guess Bill Williams and Jamie Varcoe still wouldn't call Al Capone a gangster?

Good luck to Luke. He's truly the smartest and even if he's outed, he'll retain his clients and operate through others. He's got strong sponsorship and is perceived by some at the top as being good for the game. Many more will get caught with drugs as they'll have to try something to compete. Otherwise, they may as well give up.

[broncobrad]

[VVV] Hmmmm. How quickly some forget. One of those Group 1's was Encosta De Lago's win in the 1996 Bill Stutt Stakes @ Moonee Valley and that after returning not 1, not 2 but 3 pre race TC02 overages, the first 2 of which came in well over and the 3rd of which came in at still over the limit but within the 'margin of error' and so the horse was allowed to start and it duly won the race with ease.
I wonder just how strongly old mate Richard was trying to get authorities to do something about it all back then when it was brother Lee in the firing line?

This is about the only comment I can agree with here Triple, indeed a case of running with the hounds or running with the fox, its all a matter of timing. I remember one of Encostas offspring, the appropriately named Milkshake which did win a couple of two year old races. Richard was on a panel and was asked what he thought about the naming of that horse. His indignance was there for all to see and nothing he had to say to those connections was complimentary. A clever piece of naming at the expense of anothers misfortune. Richie just couldn't see the funny side of it.

I am betting that all of those honest trainers that feel cheated by trainers who push the boundarys illegally don't see the funny side of it either. Nor do the owners of those horses. Nor does the silly old punter who doesn't know any better. The cheated are not the ones on trial here.

I am thinking there are an awful lot of people out there that want real change, but conversely there are some who are finding it all too much...as if the authorities have gone too far in their testing and people are a little bit shocked that they are now being exposed. Its a shame the out-of-competition testing isn't more actively pursued when horses are coming back into work (although that may be happening, I don't know) Your stacking theory is certainly plausible to some extent but your drug testing agency conspiracacy, well even someone as gullible as myself couldn't swallow that one..

[mark diegutis]

Mark, I made the rename the venue comment post race with full knowledge no such renaming would ever occur... It was a throwaway comment made in the heat of the moment.... So it was not the industry that called for the renaming, it was me alone and to my knowledge no one else made such a call....as I said, accept that I never intended to offend....But take on board, it was purely post race ad lib and nobody in any authority would of even for a nano second given consideration to renaming anything that I suggested.... If however I could come up with some ad lib to get my kids to eat their peas!!!!!! Even they don't listen...

No worries Fred , I agree , we'll let that lie . Tell your kids if they don't eat their peas they'll have to spend a day with VVV

[Greg Hando]

Mark - what is the reason you use Boldenone when a horse is racing ? as i have no idea . As far as i have heard Karloo Kix is in the paddock having a spell along all B Lew's horse's so i've been told. Didn't see him in the pony trot at the Bathurst show how did he go ? Didn't know they were on or would have taken my pony down to race. Where can u find out when the pony trot's are on .