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Thread: Fined for backing your drive

  1. #21
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by broncobrad View Post
    Yes Leigh, the rule IS crystal clear, black and white " a driver shall not bet in a race in which the driver participates." Acknowledged.

    But surely the rule should read "a driver shall not back any other runner in the race in which the driver participates except his own.' Knowing your driver has financially supported the horse he is driving would give me with more confidence about that horses chances.

    Surely the intention of the rule is minimise any corrupt conduct that may affect the outcome of a race but doesn't it unfairly penalise a trainer/driver by denying them the opportunity to support their horse, yet a trainer and owner can bet freely on a race, and just thinking about that, the trainer or owner can back whatever bloody horse they like in that race. It does not make sense to me.

    So instead of driving (pardon the pun) the driver underground to bet secretly, the AHRC should make provision for the driver to support their horse and as you said, with transparency. Their betting transactions should be open to scrutiny to stewards etc and if they can prove they have only supported the horse that they have driven, I cannot see a problem. But the pitfall here is some will scream they don't trust these people with this information or flatly refuse to offer that information up. So, where do we go from here? Do we just ignore the situation and ALLOW drivers to CONTINUE to bet, using agents to do their business until the next driver gets caught doing the wrong? thing again, or in this case just bet blatantly in direct contravention to a rule that is unfair and cop the consequences. To me, if the driver has given his horse every possible thats good enough for me, if he has backed it or not.

    On the other hand if he has backed another horse in the same race that is a BIG problem. If he has failed to give his horse every chance and has unfairly affected the outcome of a race, then he deserves to have the book thrown at him.

    Interesting reading on harnesslink today regarding corrupt activity and what can be expected if found guilty. I think the Painting case falls a long way short of it.

    http://www.harnesslink.com/www/Article.cgi?ID=100431
    Brad, I understand where you're coming from. But as it stands, the rules are the rules. Don't you think that by allowing drivers to bet on their own drives, that it will 'muddy' the waters. Stewards rooms will be busy picking apart every dubious and non dubious drive. Now I'm not naive enough to think that drivers never bet on races they're in. But do so at your own peril.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year broncobrad has a spectacular aura about
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    Yep the rules are the rules. And anything up to the point when any rule is actually changed, should stand. Yep.

    Just different lines of thought, because I know where you are coming from too Leigh.

    If the rule should ever change (and I doubt that it ever will), it should always protect the punter. If, just if, drivers are ever sanctioned to place bets on their own drives, surely a system could be developed where drivers declare who they are betting with, what they are betting on and all the details are made available to the stewards. Really, stewards already look at betting trends and records when conducting inquiries...it is just the next step in transparency.

    In my eyes the current rule doesn't address what is actually happening at every meeting already...bit like prohibition in the States, nobody could buy a drink but everyone knew where they could get one.

  3. #23
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Leigh I am not professing Jacksons innocence. He may be a cheat. He may be a grub. I don't know. But on the evidence put forward in this case I would not label him as either. What I am questioning however is the harshness of the penalty. That is not black and white as you state. Penalties are completely subjective. I have not seen a precedence set in this (I'm not saying there isn't but if anyone knows of a similar case I'd certainly like to read the details of it) and it certainly seems like Jackson is being made an example of and hung out to dry. A first offence and certainly not a major one has stripped a young bloke of his right to earn a livelihood. I cannot see the merit in this. I may be comparing apples with oranges but Jackson would have got off lighter for doping one. I know what crime I see as being the larger issue to the industry.

  4. #24
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    Grant, with the ongoing investigation into race fixing in Victoria. The new anti corruption laws in NSW. I feel these will be the normal penalties from now on. Now whether they are fair, I don't know. I do not know of any other precedent. I would have thought it would be easier to 'pull' a horse with betfair around nowadays, than 'juice' it up and hope for the best. Note. I have nether done this or know of anyone doing this OK.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    If we as an Industry are going to persist with the ridiculous Change Of Tactics rule then is there any stopping us extending that approach to a Driver speaking to the Stewards prior to a race & telling them he is intending to or has already had his hard earned on his charge?
    I don't have any problem with that. It's naive and rather obtuse to boot for Harness Racing Officialdom to attempt to portray an image to the wagering public that Drivers don't bet. The exact same thing applies to Jockeys. For the TB Stewards to continue with that pretence, well, it just makes them look ridiculous.

  6. #26
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple V View Post
    If we as an Industry are going to persist with the ridiculous Change Of Tactics rule then is there any stopping us extending that approach to a Driver speaking to the Stewards prior to a race & telling them he is intending to or has already had his hard earned on his charge?
    I don't have any problem with that. It's naive and rather obtuse to boot for Harness Racing Officialdom to attempt to portray an image to the wagering public that Drivers don't bet. The exact same thing applies to Jockeys. For the TB Stewards to continue with that pretence, well, it just makes them look ridiculous.
    Scenario VVV. A driver has a modest wager on his drive. He informs the stewards of this, and also of a change of tactic. A tactic he knows will disadvantage this horse. Meanwhile he informs a friend/associate, who proceeds to lay it for heaps. Stewards question the said reinsman regarding the seemingly poor peformance of the horse, and he states 'but I backed it myself'. Thus giving him an alibi if you will. Is this too far fetched? Look I dont know what the answer is. But I do know giving your opponents the heads up on your tactics is crazy, just to appease the punting public who have not paid a cent to the preparation of your horse. But on the other side of the coin, as someone who follws the form, and knows what has gate speed and who doesnt. Who can do some work and who cant. Finding out after the race that the horse you expected to lead was grabbed hold of is very annoying. Several weeks ago a certain horse I expected to lead and be very hard to run down was jagged back to last and stayed there. He's drawn to lead again on Friday night, so I'll be on him again.

  7. #27
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild View Post
    Scenario VVV. A driver has a modest wager on his drive. He informs the stewards of this, and also of a change of tactic. A tactic he knows will disadvantage this horse. Meanwhile he informs a friend/associate, who proceeds to lay it for heaps. Stewards question the said reinsman regarding the seemingly poor peformance of the horse, and he states 'but I backed it myself'. Thus giving him an alibi if you will. Is this too far fetched? Look I dont know what the answer is. But I do know giving your opponents the heads up on your tactics is crazy, just to appease the punting public who have not paid a cent to the preparation of your horse. But on the other side of the coin, as someone who follws the form, and knows what has gate speed and who doesnt. Who can do some work and who cant. Finding out after the race that the horse you expected to lead was grabbed hold of is very annoying. Several weeks ago a certain horse I expected to lead and be very hard to run down was jagged back to last and stayed there. He's drawn to lead again on Friday night, so I'll be on him again.
    I am not sure if you are familiar with the Astronomer case currently in the gallops Leigh but I seriously doubt a very similar defence to the one you have hypothesised is going to work in their favour.

  8. #28
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    So theres no point in changing the no betting rule then? Or do drivers try harder when they've backed their own drive?

  9. #29
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild View Post
    Scenario VVV. A driver has a modest wager on his drive. He informs the stewards of this, and also of a change of tactic. A tactic he knows will disadvantage this horse. Meanwhile he informs a friend/associate, who proceeds to lay it for heaps. Stewards question the said reinsman regarding the seemingly poor peformance of the horse, and he states 'but I backed it myself'. Thus giving him an alibi if you will. Is this too far fetched? Look I dont know what the answer is. But I do know giving your opponents the heads up on your tactics is crazy, just to appease the punting public who have not paid a cent to the preparation of your horse. But on the other side of the coin, as someone who follws the form, and knows what has gate speed and who doesnt. Who can do some work and who cant. Finding out after the race that the horse you expected to lead was grabbed hold of is very annoying. Several weeks ago a certain horse I expected to lead and be very hard to run down was jagged back to last and stayed there. He's drawn to lead again on Friday night, so I'll be on him again.
    [VVV] I very much doubt that would fly Leigh. Not every Steward going is the sharpest knife available in the drawer but even they aren't going to buy into that one. Insofar as supporting a beaten horse who's effort is subsequently queried, it is being done now anyway, it has been done for years. How many times have you read 'Connections produced evidence which showed they had supported the horse' or some such comment in a Stewards Report. What I am suggesting would just bring it out into the open, that's all. Why not allow the Drivers to take a swing up front and out in the open. The restriction should be you back your own horse ONLY. The whole 'keeping up appearances' routine that we see at the moment is IMO just ridiculous on the part of Harness Racing and TB Stewards. Of course Drivers bet, of course Jockeys bet. It's not exactly late breaking news.
    I don't condone what old mates down in the Riverina did but I don't think it's the crime of the century either. If anything I feel somewhat relieved that despite all of his ability in the bike and all his racing connections, apparently Jackson Painting backs as many winners as I do...which clearly, if they were meals, would see us both starve to death.

  10. #30
    Senior Member 4YO Lucky Camilla"s Lovechild will become famous soon enough
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    So do you think Mr Painting punts like that all the time, or this was just a 1 off occasion? I'd also be interested if stewards looked into Betfair betting as well.

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