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  1. #21
    aussiebreno
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    The seeming disrepencies from thoroughbreds to harness is amazing.

    Cam Fitzpatrick and co stood down, Oliver riding a winner today.
    Greg Kelly scratched straight away when tubing equipment found, today a galloper is allowed to run.

    Before Bill pipes in with the intricies and differences of each case, they don't mean a lot. It's the look to the general population. Glad to be in our game rather than the gallops.

  2. #22
    Senior Member 3YO Gtrain has a spectacular aura about Gtrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiebreno View Post
    The seeming disrepencies from thoroughbreds to harness is amazing.

    Cam Fitzpatrick and co stood down, Oliver riding a winner today.
    Greg Kelly scratched straight away when tubing equipment found, today a galloper is allowed to run.

    Before Bill pipes in with the intricies and differences of each case, they don't mean a lot. It's the look to the general population. Glad to be in our game rather than the gallops.
    Painiting out for 6 months for a $100 bet. Olly had 10k on. Sounds fair.

  3. #23
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiebreno View Post
    The seeming disrepencies from thoroughbreds to harness is amazing.

    Cam Fitzpatrick and co stood down, Oliver riding a winner today.
    Greg Kelly scratched straight away when tubing equipment found, today a galloper is allowed to run.

    Before Bill pipes in with the intricies and differences of each case, they don't mean a lot. It's the look to the general population. Glad to be in our game rather than the gallops.
    Your kidding Brendan and I will not even go to intricacies just simple stand out facts that make the cases so different.

    Fitzpatrick charged by the police with being party to a corrupt action. ........ Oliver not charged by anyone not even sure police are investigating. Apples and Pineapples.

    Kelly caught stopping on the way to the races and going into the trailer with tubing equipment and a liquid in a container.

    Karakatanasis found to have tubing equipment .... no liquid capable of being tubed and no evidence horse was to be treated.... Again Apples and Pineapples.

    For the record John McNair was caught in similar circumstances to Kelly by the gallops stewards and his horses were scratched.

    Its simple you need some sort of prima facie evidence to proceed.
    Last edited by Thevoiceofreason; 11-04-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  4. #24
    Member Gelding Tangles will become famous soon enough
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    Bill,

    Would'nt the first step in the investigation be to test the residues in the bucket and tube and pre/ post race test the horse concerned as well as all other runners the trainer had entered on the day.

  5. #25
    aussiebreno
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason View Post
    Your kidding Brendan and I will not even go to intricacies just simple stand out facts that make the cases so different.

    Fitzpatrick charged by the police with being party to a corrupt action. ........ Oliver not charged by anyone not even sure police are investigating. Apples and Pineapples.

    Kelly caught stopping on the way to the races and going into the trailer with tubing equipment and a liquid in a container.

    Karakatanasis found to have tubing equipment .... no liquid capable of being tubed and no evidence horse was to be treated.... Again Apples and Pineapples.

    For the record John McNair was caught in similar circumstances to Kelly by the gallops stewards and his horses were scratched.

    Its simple you need some sort of prima facie evidence to proceed.
    FFS

    Legally yes you are right (and you weren't actually telling me anything I don't know, it was apathy not ignorance), not everything is a freaking law textbook Bill.

    I'm quite happy that to the eye of the general public (who don't even really know what tubing equipment is let alone the rules around it and legal procedures) that harness is seen to come down harder in recent times. In the long run that is good news.

  6. #26
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangles View Post
    Bill,

    Would'nt the first step in the investigation be to test the residues in the bucket and tube and pre/ post race test the horse concerned as well as all other runners the trainer had entered on the day.
    Yes Tangles I agree and I assume this is what has happened as the first step.

  7. #27
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiebreno View Post
    FFS

    Legally yes you are right (and you weren't actually telling me anything I don't know, it was apathy not ignorance), not everything is a freaking law textbook Bill.

    I'm quite happy that to the eye of the general public (who don't even really know what tubing equipment is let alone the rules around it and legal procedures) that harness is seen to come down harder in recent times. In the long run that is good news.
    Unfortunately Brendan it is all about the law the stewards have to act within the law to be any hope of a conviction.

    This is not the first time Racing Victoria Stewards have caught a possible breach of race day treatment rules this carnival. A couple of weeks back they scratched one because it had a puncture wound on it jugular vein, another horse from the same trainer was still allowed to run because there was not enough evidence it had been treated to support the decision to withdraw it.

    It is a simple fact, like it or not the decisions will always be governed by the facts of each individual case.

  8. #28
    aussiebreno
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thevoiceofreason View Post
    Unfortunately Brendan it is all about the law the stewards have to act within the law to be any hope of a conviction.

    This is not the first time Racing Victoria Stewards have caught a possible breach of race day treatment rules this carnival. A couple of weeks back they scratched one because it had a puncture wound on it jugular vein, another horse from the same trainer was still allowed to run because there was not enough evidence it had been treated to support the decision to withdraw it.

    It is a simple fact, like it or not the decisions will always be governed by the facts of each individual case.
    You don't get. Yes those individuals will be treated by formal legal processes and rightfully so. I'm all for that and the RV stewards handled it (to my knowledge) properly. I know why Howmuchdoyouloveme was allowed to run and have been telling other people why, but many Joe Blows don't understand.
    The bigger issue is how it looks to Joe Blow. Joe Blow, rightly or wrongly, is angry at how Howmuchyouloveme was allowed to race yesterday. Joe Blow wasn't angry when Greg Kelly was scratched. Joe Blows emotions might not be backed up by the law process, but to the image of racing and harness racing Joe Blows emotions are pretty bloody important.
    I'm happy with how this rubs off on harness racing.

  9. #29
    Senior Member 4YO Thevoiceofreason has a spectacular aura about
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    Quote Originally Posted by aussiebreno View Post
    You don't get. Yes those individuals will be treated by formal legal processes and rightfully so. I'm all for that and the RV stewards handled it (to my knowledge) properly. I know why Howmuchdoyouloveme was allowed to run and have been telling other people why, but many Joe Blows don't understand.
    The bigger issue is how it looks to Joe Blow. Joe Blow, rightly or wrongly, is angry at how Howmuchyouloveme was allowed to race yesterday. Joe Blow wasn't angry when Greg Kelly was scratched. Joe Blows emotions might not be backed up by the law process, but to the image of racing and harness racing Joe Blows emotions are pretty bloody important.
    I'm happy with how this rubs off on harness racing.
    No Brendan you are the one that does not get it .... there is no doubt the RV stewards would have withdrawn Howmuchdoyouloveme if they had one shred of evidence it had been treated.... As I said before long gone are the days when stewards just ran ruffshot over licensed people.

    Also there is a rule in Harness Racing that permits the stewards to stand down a horse once an inquiry is opened without charges being laid and the stewards rightfully so use it whenever it is appropriate.... The same or even a similar rule does not exist in the Gallops in Australia so as much as you and many others might have wanted it to happen the stewards needed solid ground to stand on clearly they did not think they had it.

    One thing Terry Bailey has proven in both codes over a long period of time is he will make the tuff decisions.... if he was not confident enough in the circumstances to order its withdrawal I am very happy to support that decision.

    I agree in part with your perception argument however the trouble is you can not have perception at the cost of a conviction or even worse a court case where the connections of Howmuchdoyouloveme sue RVL for a loss of prizemoney if they were withdrawn without just cause.

  10. #30
    aussiebreno
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    [QUOTE=Thevoiceofreason;23722]No Brendan you are the one that does not get it Get your head out of Law 101 for a minute, open your eyes and see the real world .... there is no doubt the RV stewards would have withdrawn Howmuchdoyouloveme if they had one shred of evidence it had been treated Yawnnn. I already know that.... As I said before long gone are the days when stewards just ran ruffshot over licensed people. Still yawning.

    Also there is a rule in Harness Racing that permits the stewards to stand down a horse once an inquiry is opened without charges being laid and the stewards rightfully so use it whenever it is appropriate.... The same or even a similar rule does not exist in the Gallops in Australia so as much as you (did you forget to read the part where I said "I know why it was allowed to run") and many others might have wanted it to happen the stewards needed solid ground to stand on clearly they did not think they had it. Did you miss the part where I said stewards handled it correctly

    One thing Terry Bailey has proven in both codes over a long period of time is he will make the tuff decisions.... if he was not confident enough in the circumstances to order its withdrawal I am very happy to support that decision. Did you miss the part where I said stewards handled it correctly. I'm not having a go at stewards you princess.

    I agree in part with your perception argument however the trouble is you can not have perception at the cost of a conviction or even worse a court case where the connections of Howmuchdoyouloveme sue RVL for a loss of prizemoney if they were withdrawn without just cause.Im not saying racing can do anything legitimate about, its just the way, rightfully or wrongfully, it rubs off to Joe Blow. I've raised the same compensation argument with both Howmuchdoyouloveme and Damien Oliver, but Joe Blow just doesn't get it.[/QUOTE]
    Legally you are 100% correct. Stewards have acted properly I'm not doubting that.
    But I'm not talking about that. Joe Blow has no idea about the legal procedures. Joe Blow out on the street is, rightfully or wrongfully, seeing harness racing doing a good job while thoroughbred racing has copped it recently because Joe Blow doesn't understand the legal processes.
    I'm not saying Howmuchyouloveme should have been stood down, I know the rules and have told others - I know perfectly well stewards have done the right thing. But Joe Blow just doesn't get it. Thoroughbred forums are going mad. They are also going mad Damien Oliver is riding in the Melbourne Cup. Oliver has full right to be riding as I've told others, but that doesn't stop Joe Blow getting peeved off (even if its mostly through naivety or being uninformed or lack of brain cells or whatever). And Joe Blow being peeved off is what matters, while the law textbook does not matter.

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