WA Pacing Cup - 11/01/2013

[Mighty Atom]

To Bob,Lenny and Glen thanks for the input, all intelligent comments worth reading unlike a certain person who loves putting the boot into ITMQ any chance he can get.

[little fish]

Barry, don't know where you get the idea ITMQ is going half pace because if he is I'd love to see him at full speed around a dog track ( I suppose you would classify Globe Derby in the same catergory). If you hadn't noticed ITMQ ran the race some 11 seconds faster with a very fast mile rate ( on a dog track) than either Smoken Up or Sushi Sushi did last night over almost same distance. The difficulty in getting the horse to Sydney and to a lesser degree Melbourne) is something you refuse to acknowledge over there and you expect him to do this continually on a regular basis, which he does. If there is so much money around over here - which there is - why aren't the eastern states horses over here getting a share; I suspect it's got something to do with the distance the same problem ITMQ has but guess what he turns up, you lot don't. Two races over here in a week worth $ 650,000 (big money in anyone's language) and your lot haven't the guts to face up to ITMQ on his home track as G Hall jnr said. Oh, and by the way Gloucester Park is the show place of Australian harness racing, the only true 'ribbon of light' left. Sure, both Menagle and Melton have bigger tracks but they appear to have been built in the middle of a cow paddock and the watering hole in the middle of Melton is something else ( got a fleeting glimpse of it, camera didn't linger on it too long and obviously for good reason, sure it's where the cows come down to drink). Imagine holding these up to the Americans as our show pieces of Australian Harness Racing, good for a laugh I imagine.

Come on mate he doesn't race regularly in the eastern states - he comes over for the biggest races (which are basically the only races he gets beat in - which is not a coincidence because they are by far the best fields he races against) then goes back to his own backyard and beats up on the same horses on the same track week after week.

Nothing wrong with that we both agree the $$ in WA is sensational for a horse like ITMQ. I'd do the same if I lived in Perth and owned a horse like him.

Bit of a laugh to suggest any of the big guns are scared of taking him on. If I owned one in that league of horse I'd be just as scared taking on Terror To Love, Smoken Up, Carribean Blaster, Sushi Sushi etc, all very formidable opponents on their day too. I'll give you they may be reluctant to travel 3200-3500km to race on a track like Gloucester Park against a horse like ITMQ - bit different to just being scared of ITMQ though. Can't compare Gloucester Park to Melton or Menangle - compare it to Mildura or Echuca maybe a better comparison?

ITMQ is a sensational horse I would love to own him. The issue here is that some people won't hear anyone not lauding him as the greatest in the land - pretty arrogant of the eagles fans to expect the eastern staters to admit such a thing when you consider all of the above. He has nothing to prove unless you want to be calling him the best in the land - Just my opinion!

[dizzy]

And Rod, Gloucester Park as Australia's showplace track!!!!!??? It's a lovely setting no doubt but u think Americans would prefer the 800m to Menangle? Come on mate, I know u r a 1 eyed Perth boy but seriously, don't let that blur your vision to say silly things. And worse u r assessing Melton and Menangle by what u see on telly! U ain't never been to either track?
It's about the horses Rod, the future of high quality racing that advances the breed, and that encapsulates a track we have for the Harness Industry in Australia where the 1:50 mark has been broken. Personally as a kid growing up watching trots for the last 45 years the possibility of 1:50 Downunder was never gonna happen and I actually smile, almost laugh at the thought that it has happened, I think it's amazing, but u know if we didn't have that "dustbowl" in the cow paddock as u say, it wouldn't have happened mate.
U can't tell me in your years of wisdom Rod that that's not good for the future advancement of the industry!

Ash can you explain how an improvement in the track, that is a larger track in this case, equates to an improvement in the breed? Surely an improvement in the breed can only be determined if all other things remain equal, that is track, gig, feed, medication, training regime etc.

How does a sub 1:50 mark for an unfashionably bred gelding on a "dustbowl" mile track outweigh for the future advancement of the industry that same unfashionably bred gelding's outstanding performance to win 4 SA cups (along with many other feature races) on a half mile track does?

[Maorisidol]

Ash can you explain how an improvement in the track, that is a larger track in this case, equates to an improvement in the breed? Surely an improvement in the breed can only be determined if all other things remain equal, that is track, gig, feed, medication, training regime etc.

How does a sub 1:50 mark for an unfashionably bred gelding on a "dustbowl" mile track outweigh for the future advancement of the industry that same unfashionably bred gelding's outstanding performance to win 4 SA cups (along with many other feature races) on a half mile track does?

Hi Dot,
The 4 SA Cup scenario is absolutely as important as the sub 1:50 times.
I was generally meaning the lucky situation we have now that a track like that exists to do very very fast times, like we have not seen in Australia, for ALL horses.
I was not talking about just 1 horse, more the betterment of the industry thru ALL horses that race there and being able to run times they wouldnt have run at Harold Park for example. These days we have CO pacers running miles in sub 1:55 and probably quite lower. If you had of told me that in 1981 i would have said you were on drugs!
In my opinion that has to convert to mares who run better times, can then have their foals get more money at the sales, theres a benefit for the owner of the mare, they can then afford a more expensive sire for her next foal, hopefully that gets even faster and is then worth more again. Its a very simple way of looking at it but all things equal, would you get more money for a horse with 1:58.3 next to its name or 1:53.7?
This is what i mean about betterment for the horses, the industry, more money for everyone.
And of course yes a track is but 1 part of the equation when the gig, feed etc as you mention are also vital.
My point came from the statement from Rod who said "Gloucester Park is the show place of Australian harness racing" and then "Sure, both Menagle and Melton have bigger tracks but they appear to have been built in the middle of a cow paddock and the watering hole in the middle of Melton is something else ( got a fleeting glimpse of it, camera didn't linger on it too long and obviously for good reason, sure it's where the cows come down to drink). Imagine holding these up to the Americans as our show pieces of Australian Harness Racing, good for a laugh I imagine."
Hence my reply about us now having a 1400m track and an extremely fast Melton 900m track in comparison to the Perth track...and the benefits that come to the industry with these faster times. These are more likely to be the "showpieces" of Australia in my opinion.

[dizzy]

So Ash then improved times are actually a result then of the bigger track and not an improvement in the breed ? And you believe the better times equate to higher prices at the sales? So by extension then should our next new track be built in a straight line so that we will run faster time still?

I'll have to disagree with you I think better prices for our stock will not be realised by an artificial reduction in the mile rates of the mares with stock in the sale but by an increase in the numbers of people interested in purchasing stock at the sales. To achieve that we need tracks in populated areas that showcases our industry as an exciting specatacle that appeals to people who in most instances will have no idea of the relevence of a mile rate but can recognise exciting racing. GP does that far better then Menangle. I like Melton but it would have benefited exponetionally if it could have been built much closer to the city.

I think Smoken Ups four SA cups and string of other feature victories over the years, often in stirring duels, advance the future of the industry far more then his sub 1.50 mile ever will.

[Maorisidol]

So Ash then improved times are actually a result then of the bigger track and not an improvement in the breed ? And you believe the better times equate to higher prices at the sales? So by extension then should our next new track be built in a straight line so that we will run faster time still?

I'll have to disagree with you I think better prices for our stock will not be realised by an artificial reduction in the mile rates of the mares with stock in the sale but by an increase in the numbers of people interested in purchasing stock at the sales. To achieve that we need tracks in populated areas that showcases our industry as an exciting specatacle that appeals to people who in most instances will have no idea of the relevence of a mile rate but can recognise exciting racing. GP does that far better then Menangle. I like Melton but it would have benefited exponetionally if it could have been built much closer to the city.

I think Smoken Ups four SA cups and string of other feature victories over the years, often in stirring duels, advance the future of the industry far more then his sub 1.50 mile ever will.

Holy Moses Dot,
U seem to be grabbing onto 1 thing I said as if I had stated that it was the be all and end all to solve the answers to the universe. U also seem to try and put words into my mouth so to speak or assume I am meaning something that I am not blowing it out of all proportion.
Example, Dot says "So Ash then improved times are actually a result then of the bigger track and not an improvement in the breed ?"
No Dot, I did not say that or indeed intend for anyone to get that impression at all. What I have said is that Menangle is good for the industry because some unbelievable times are run there, from the CO horses running times that were inconceivable to me for that grade to run back when they were "beginners" races in 1981 for example, to the other end of horse that is " able" to run sub 1:50 in australia on a 1400m track. That's it that's my opinion.
dot I have not said it is the answer, the only answer or the best answer. So please don't assume that that is my train of thought. I totally agree a track like that is 1 part that plays its part to help advance the industry as a whole.
At no time did I say that times, mile rates or 1400m at Menangle is more important than the concept and excitement of an event like we saw at Globe Derby with Caribbean Blaster and Trigger, so please don't think for me.
I feel u may have initially mistook what I said by seemingly coming in mid conversation in a discussion I was having with Rod, and not read the previous posts from both of us to get the flow of the conversation. If not, then maybe I am going mad!

[little fish]

Field for Fremantle Cup - 11 of the 12 horses are the same - seriously if I were an owner of ITMQ I'd be pissing myself laughing at this.
And if I were the prez of Gloucester Park I'd be shattered about it.

[Danno]

Field for Fremantle Cup - 11 of the 12 horses are the same - seriously if I were an owner of ITMQ I'd be pissing myself laughing at this.
And if I were the prez of Gloucester Park I'd be shattered about it.

G'day Barry,
the prez of Gloucester Park is one time Newcastle Secretary Manager John Burt and I reckon he'll be pretty happy actually, the race looks a near certainty for ITMQ and the people love a winner!!

Extra good horses draw attention to our game and IMTQ is no exception particularly in the west.

From a participants perspective theres nothing worse than going around against something you pretty much know you cant beat, but sometimes its good for the game, and I think with this particular horse that is the case, of course I could be dead wrong too!

cheers,
Dan

[Maorisidol]

Come on mate he doesn't race regularly in the eastern states - he comes over for the biggest races (which are basically the only races he gets beat in - which is not a coincidence because they are by far the best fields he races against) then goes back to his own backyard and beats up on the same horses on the same track week after week.

Nothing wrong with that we both agree the $$ in WA is sensational for a horse like ITMQ. I'd do the same if I lived in Perth and owned a horse like him.

Bit of a laugh to suggest any of the big guns are scared of taking him on. If I owned one in that league of horse I'd be just as scared taking on Terror To Love, Smoken Up, Carribean Blaster, Sushi Sushi etc, all very formidable opponents on their day too. I'll give you they may be reluctant to travel 3200-3500km to race on a track like Gloucester Park against a horse like ITMQ - bit different to just being scared of ITMQ though. Can't compare Gloucester Park to Melton or Menangle - compare it to Mildura or Echuca maybe a better comparison?

ITMQ is a sensational horse I would love to own him. The issue here is that some people won't hear anyone not lauding him as the greatest in the land - pretty arrogant of the eagles fans to expect the eastern staters to admit such a thing when you consider all of the above. He has nothing to prove unless you want to be calling him the best in the land - Just my opinion!

Nice post Barry, so true that "The issue here is that some people won't hear anyone not lauding him as the greatest in the land"
And, "He has nothing to prove unless you want to be calling him the best in the land - Just my opinion!"
And everyone is entitled to their opinion, again like I conversed with Aussiebrenno once where I said its a bit like we have footy teams we are passionate about, we also can have horses we are passionate about, but sometimes like footy, people can be a bit too one eyed and defensive of their champ, to a point where they overrate them a little too much.

[Triple V]

Holy Moses Dot,
U seem to be grabbing onto 1 thing I said as if I had stated that it was the be all and end all to solve the answers to the universe. U also seem to try and put words into my mouth so to speak or assume I am meaning something that I am not blowing it out of all proportion.

[VVV] Welcome to the Club, Ash.