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Thread: Barry Lew another positive

  1. #41
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    i have no intention to revisit an old arguement jamie, as it never got resolved and won't either, however, under the current rules ( or any other for that matter) there must be a line in the sand somewhere....long may we argue where that line is....but if the line is there, and it's there for all to see..ridiculous in your opinion, but realistic in the opinions of some others, then you play within the rules and yes, you give yourself a safety factor, and if you don't and get done? Blame yourself imo, don't blame the rules!

    [vvv] in light of advances in detection capabilities the rules as they are written have become obselete bullshit dan. That's the problem.
    there's no escaping the fact developments in testing for a range of substances has well and truly outstripped the...for want of better terminolgy...'the wording and intention' of the rules as they are currently written, detection having been developed to the point where infinitely minute non-pharmacologically active amounts (1 billionth of a gram) can be detected in a urine sample from a 350-400kg horse. Trainers are currently at the mercy of 21st century technology working hand in hand with 20th century regulations.

    if we continue to bury our heads in the sand & use 'but those are the rules' as a justification for this unjust state of affairs then nothing will ever improve dan, the pressure for change will never be brought to bear. the stone cold fact is 'the testing/regulatory emperor has no clothes'...and it's gotten well past the point where this should have been pointed out.
    trainers getting 12 months on the sidelines for 1 billionth of 1 gram of anything in a sample is sheer bloody mindedness.

    how can you blame the rules if everyone else is playing within those rules and you get busted for stretching them??

    [vvv] dan, as things stand at present if you were to pick the right substances & apply a rigourous enough testing regime for those substancesto enough horses i guarantee that you'd see dozens & dozens of trainers following barry lew to the sidelines.


    the rules are always up for amendment, but we need to play within the rules of the day on the day, otherwise we can be accused of cheating, ask lance, although, maybe don't 'cos i get the impression he still doesn't actually get it.
    [vvv] rules will never change until such time as there is widespread agitation for change.


    cheers,
    dan
    vvv

  2. #42
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Greg Hando will become famous soon enough
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    Very well said Jamie and i totally agree with you.
    Have whoever you want on but don't ever have yourself on

  3. #43
    Member Gelding Tangles will become famous soon enough
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    Be careful what you wish for. If threshold levels were introduced for legal medications, this would play into the hands of the biochemist. A little bit of this, a little bit of that (commonly know as stacking) until all the little bits potentiate each other to have a huge effect on the outcome of races.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Agree with what tangles said. Greg 1 nano gram is unlikely to have had an effect on the horses performance during the race but how is anyone to know that it wasn't part of a pre race stacking protocol designed to improve performance and avoid detection in conventional post race testing that went wrong? Because Barry said so? I think we all know that isn't even close to a viable defence. I don't know how karloo mick came to return a positive swab, I don't know if what's been suggested as the explanation is even viable but right now Barry has crossed the existing line in the sand and must be dealt with accordingly, thus he is disqualified.

    Yes testing capabilities have improved enormously but then so have the protocols designed to thwart them. As written earlier ketamine does have differing effects used in different ways and in combination with other drugs. My only personal experience with it is that 20mls of it allowed one of mine to walk around perfectly soundly turning his fractured pastern into a bag of marbles whilst awaiting euthanasia.

    In years gone by karloo mick has been reported to be effected by dust and allergies in various media reports, improved vastly by beach training at Vic Frosts was one, treated by vet Christine Smith for allergies was another,and ketamine is known to be a bronchodilator. So who really knows if Barry is a legitimate combatant or innocent victim of the much needed assault on the use of PEDS. Either way the ability to detect 1nannogram serves as a deterent to those tempted to cross the line and the line currently stands at zero. To Barry I am sorry if you are a victim and good riddance to you if you are not.

  5. #45
    Banned Foal brother cool will become famous soon enough
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    Yes testing capabilities have improved enormously but then so have the protocols designed to thwart them

    Very true

  6. #46
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dot View Post
    My only personal experience with it is that 20mls of it allowed one of mine to walk around perfectly soundly turning his fractured pastern into a bag of marbles whilst awaiting euthanasia.
    [VVV] 20mls of Ketamine would have killed it stone dead.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple V View Post
    [VVV] 20mls of Ketamine would have killed it stone dead.
    Was over a 28 hour period VVV and I asure you he was very much alive during that time.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Dot, there's a huge difference between mls and mgs. If I remember it correctly Ketamine comes in a dosage strength of 10mg/ml...so 20mls over 28hrs means that your horse received 200mg of Ketamine or thereabouts and I still reckon that weight would've sent it to the great racetrack in the sky.
    By way of a yardstick, 100mg of Ketamine is enough to stop a 4 tonne African Elephant in its tracks. At a guess a good sized horse weighs in at around 1/10th of that, somewhere in the vicinity of 350-400kg.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year Dot will become famous soon enough
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    VVV would you mind advising where you obtained your veterinary degree? Would you prefer it if I said approximately 20mls of ketamine, I was somewhat distressed at the time. I don't recall the concentration on the bottle and it was actually prescribed and dispensed by a small animal vet which perhaps had some bearing on the event. It did not cause the horses death, that was most certainly caused by an equine vet and 120 odd mls, with another 60 mls on standby, of the "green dream"

    Do you think the drugs may have been pharmacologically active if we swabbed him?

  10. #50
    Senior Member Stallion Triple V will become famous soon enough Triple V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dot View Post
    vvv would you mind advising where you obtained your veterinary degree?
    [vvv] don't have one. I just read a lot, ask a lot of questions of those who know or should know & then listen closely to their replies.

    would you prefer it if i said approximately 20mls of ketamine,
    [vvv] no problems, in that case approximately 20mls of ketamine would have approximately killed the horse.

    i was somewhat distressed at the time.
    [vvv] no doubt. That's a very unpleasant business. My condolences.

    i don't recall the concentration on the bottle
    [vvv] it comes in 10mg/ml, 50mg/ml and 100mg/ml licks which equals your choice of 200mg, 1000mg and 2000mg over 28hrs.
    using the previously mentioned 100mg to old mate the 4 tonne african elephant as our yardstick, the latter of those three, as in the 2000mg belter would be a fair chance to cause a 100ft 170 tonne full grown blue wale to switch off all the lights and sink like a stone ...but i digress.

    and it was actually prescribed and dispensed by a small animal vet which perhaps had some bearing on the event.
    [vvv] indeed. God forbid said vet hands out something similar to the concerned owner of a budgie or a ferret.

    it did not cause the horses death, that was most certainly caused by an equine vet and 120 odd mls, with another 60 mls on standby, of the "green dream"
    [vvv] nasty stuff. Done that just once, once was enough.

    do you think the drugs may have been pharmacologically active if we swabbed him?
    [vvv] ketamine has a half life of 2.5-3hrs or thereabouts so it's a pretty fair bet that it would have scored you a nice holiday...however it would have been for a fair bit more of the old norketamine in the pee sample than the 1 billionth of 1 gram that barry has recently and so ridiculously been sidelined for.
    vvv

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