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Thread: Who is the real trainer?

  1. #21
    Member Yearling Toni will become famous soon enough
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    Barry - who would you propose horses go to? Isnt it up to the owners? Or do you think the owners should be forced to transfer them to someone who has never spoken or dealt with the disqualified person? Where would you draw the line?

    Harvey, just out of curiosity, do you have horses with only one trainer or a couple?

  2. #22
    Banned Filly little fish will become famous soon enough
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    Mean nothing disrespectful to anyone harvey.

    I know of a trainer who prefers the horses not be in his name only because he doesn't trust himself to be telling stewards to go forth and multiply if he ever gets grilled by them. Says he can't afford all the fines so it's better that the horses be in the other person's name - fair enough I guess.

  3. #23
    Banned Filly little fish will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toni View Post
    Barry - who would you propose horses go to? Isnt it up to the owners? Or do you think the owners should be forced to transfer them to someone who has never spoken or dealt with the disqualified person? Where would you draw the line?

    Harvey, just out of curiosity, do you have horses with only one trainer or a couple?
    I've no idea where the horses should go. I don't see the relevence to be honest. If a trainer cheats and gets rubbed out I'm struggling to think of scenarios where the penalty should not be for the stable to virtually shut down completely. It's a circus where the horses can just get transferred to the missus and the horses don't miss a beat. I mean these penalties are not supposed to be a tiny blimp of the radar they are supposed to be tough and devestating, aren't they?

  4. #24
    Senior Member 2YO HISGEN65 will become famous soon enough HISGEN65's Avatar
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    Barry...yes it craps me off no end when a person gets disqualified & the horses get transferred to another trainer who is heavily associated with the disqualified person...could name several occurrances of late..
    Toni I do agree with you BUT its about creating strong deterrents...In my opinion this is the crux of the whole problem..so many think its worth the gamble as they will be pulling the strings somehow anyway

  5. #25
    Member Yearling Toni will become famous soon enough
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    We are talking about people's livlihoods here.

    I personally think there are some people who get positive swabs who are cheating and some who had no intention of cheating. I know that a lot of people are going to argue with me on that one but I will try and explain the way I think.

    Cheaters have an actual intent to give their horse something in the hope it will win / do better etc. They knowingly give a drug that wouldnt be used for any other purpose and solely to improve the performance of that horse for that race.

    Then there are people who I view to be a victim of circumstance I guess you could say. They thought they were giving a substance within the allowed withholding period, or giving it to the horse for another legitimate purpose, only to find out the horse didnt metabolise the substance as quick as the average horse or any other reason and therefore they go over.

    So in saying this, if you made a mistake (And I agree its the trainers job not to make mistakes, but hey, they happen to the best of everyone) and got a positive swab and you want the stable closed down, a lot of people will pay for that one mistake.

    In what other working situation would anyone, and their team, lose their job for 6 months because someone made a mistake?

    I will say that I agree wholeheartedly that if a horse has a banned substance in its system when it races, then it should by all means be disqualified as its not fair for it to be a starter in the first place.

    Also, why shouldnt the horse continue on to race? Do you think the owner should be further penalised?

  6. #26
    Super Moderator Horse Of The Year teecee has a spectacular aura about teecee's Avatar
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    This thread relates to who is the real trainer of a horse.
    There are many insinuations to be drawn from some of the comments within this thread. Some of these insinuations by their pre empted denial are not, or barely in accordance with the rules and conditions of this forum. These are so many that to edit them may severely fragment the discussion. Please keep unsubstantiated and person specific views which are neither factual nor based on fact out of it. Argue the general point rather than the specifics of what a particular person says or does.

    In assisting the purpose of the thread I have included the following link to a media release from HRNSW.
    http://www.hrnsw.com.au/assets/files...f%20Horses.pdf

    Of course this does not apply to those who have not been disqualified.
    Owners have the sole right without interference from others to place their horses where they think fit and trainers have a right to apply for and be granted a licence to ply their trade within the conditions of that licence under the same circumstances.

    To help clarify another point..
    People are only disqualified if they are convicted of a breach of the rules.
    A person is innocent until sufficient evidence is produced to prove on the basis of probability that they are guilty.
    If you can't or don't produce the evidence, there is no case to answer, no finding to make, no conviction to enter and no penalty to impose.
    You are INNOCENT of the claims.
    This scenario is not one lending itself to confusion.
    The court of public opinion does not have jurisdiction to determine otherwise To write or say otherwise in the public domain is actionable.
    Last edited by teecee; 02-22-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Horse Of The Year mightymo will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by little fish View Post
    I've no idea where the horses should go. I don't see the relevence to be honest. If a trainer cheats and gets rubbed out I'm struggling to think of scenarios where the penalty should not be for the stable to virtually shut down completely. It's a circus where the horses can just get transferred to the missus and the horses don't miss a beat. I mean these penalties are not supposed to be a tiny blimp of the radar they are supposed to be tough and devestating, aren't they?
    What about the owners? You give a horse to a trainer with a clean record. Subsequently, the trainer gets a positive. Surely the owners should be able to transfer the horse to another trainer?

    Our industry desperately needs more owners. We cant afford to lose existing ones by penalising them

  8. #28
    Senior Member Stallion Danno is a jewel in the rough
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    Dear Toni,

    yes we are talking about their livelyhoods, and when it comes to that, we all have rights AND responsiblities.

    We are talking about people's livlihoods here.
    Correct, but we are also talking about a larger group of people who feel they have been cheated.



    I personally think there are some people who get positive swabs who are cheating and some who had no intention of cheating. I know that a lot of people are going to argue with me on that one but I will try and explain the way I think.
    I dont think anyone wil argue with that, it's just the percentages that will be debated.

    [QUOTE]
    Cheaters have an actual intent to give their horse something in the hope it will win / do better etc. They knowingly give a drug that wouldnt be used for any other purpose and solely to improve the performance of that horse for that race.


    Then there are people who I view to be a victim of circumstance I guess you could say. They thought they were giving a substance within the allowed withholding period, or giving it to the horse for another legitimate purpose, only to find out the horse didnt metabolise the substance as quick as the average horse or any other reason and therefore they go over.
    And then there are the people who claim legitimacy, because all their lives they have learned how to "play the victim".....and then,very innocent and often chronically gullible people believe them and go forth and decry their innocence!!!!!
    So in saying this, if you made a mistake (And I agree its the trainers job not to make mistakes, but hey, they happen to the best of everyone) and got a positive swab and you want the stable closed down, a lot of people will pay for that one mistake.
    What happens if it wasn't a MISTAKE???????????

    In what other working situation would anyone, and their team, lose their job for 6 months because someone made a mistake?
    We are talking about fraud and dishonestly here, please don't try to to turn this debate into consideration for playground mistakes.

    I will say that I agree wholeheartedly that if a horse has a banned substance in its system when it races, then it should by all means be disqualified as its not fair for it to be a starter in the first place.
    At least we agree on that one!!

    Cheers, Dan
    Last edited by teecee; 02-23-2013 at 01:30 AM. Reason: grammar

  9. #29
    Banned Filly little fish will become famous soon enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightymo View Post
    What about the owners? You give a horse to a trainer with a clean record. Subsequently, the trainer gets a positive. Surely the owners should be able to transfer the horse to another trainer?

    Our industry desperately needs more owners. We cant afford to lose existing ones by penalising them
    Agreed I'd definitely want to be able to transfer my horse to a different stable. But it has to be a different stable not the same stable with a different name on the invoice.

  10. #30
    Member Gelding Lenem will become famous soon enough
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    I find it very difficult to imagine that ....... has use of the track for "..." horses from 6:30 to 7:30 and then vacates the premises so that ...... .. ... .... can move in and train "..." team from 7:30 to 8:30.They might give some thought to putting some of the team into the care of their newborn! The same can be said for .............. and all the rest.
    I think that they all should be compelled to train under the banner "Team ........", "Team ......" etc etc and the STABLE take responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens to horses under the care.
    The current situation where a horse can change trainers and the only change that occurs is in the racebook,is clearly a joke.
    Last edited by teecee; 02-24-2013 at 01:58 PM.

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